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Mike Stu

[Plot hole?] Did Earth get invaded twice...?

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Yeah I've wondered about this since launch but never saw it being addressed (I'm sure someone has). Also, spoilers if you haven't finished the game yet.

 

So, ok, this is really specific but bear with me here: 

 

Spoiler

We all know by now that Doom Eternal made Doom 64 cannon which, you know, cool. Thing is: Doom 64 is a continuation of Doom II, right? I mean, the manual pretty much implies Doom McMarine Guy has PTSD from all the hell stuff in Doom and Doom II.

 

This means that when Earth gets invaded in Doom Eternal, it's the second time it has happened, since Doom II is cannon. This... does not line up at all with what we've seen in Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal though. 

 

I mean, you'd think Earth fellas would be pretty savvy about this hell stuff already when Doom Eternal happened, not acting like it's their first rodeo. Instead, no one even mentions it, which is weird, right? I mean it's kind of a big deal, guys. 

 

...And yeah I'm probably overthinking this and it ultimately doesn't really matter. Doom 2016 is afterall just a reboot which happens to borrow story notes from classic Doom. 

 

Still, curious to hear if anyone has a proper explanation (pls don't say paralel dimensions 'cause come on...).

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36 minutes ago, Mike Stu said:

pls don't say paralel dimensions

The  unused voice of the Khan Maykr lines confirm multiple dimensions: "I will send  you back to your home, the earth world in the 7th dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting  to embrace you again. As if you have never left."

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15 minutes ago, igg said:

The  unused voice of the Khan Maykr lines confirm multiple dimensions: "I will send  you back to your home, the earth world in the 7th dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before no memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting  to embrace you again. As if you have never left."

 

Yikes, I guess it does. Didn't know about these. Having heard it now, I much prefer the Maykr's offer in the final game tbh, as it leaves things for the imagination.

 

Spoiler

For anyone curious, 4:05 onwards.

 

 

 

Kinda feel like the whole "it's paralel dimensions!!" thingy as a plot device it's a bit overdone at this point and just makes things less interesting overall. Oh well, at least it makes sense.

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Yeah it’s confusing. Hugo once said it’s not a multiverse, then said he might have a different definition on multiverse

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/jf1l3c/comment/g9hvef4/

 

so who knows 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thewormofautumn said:

Yeah it’s confusing. Hugo once said it’s not a multiverse, then said he might have a different definition on multiverse

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/jf1l3c/comment/g9hvef4/

 

so who knows 

 

I mean it's pretty obvious that they're just winging it at this point. Hugo himself has retconned some stuff already (still love the man though). Curious to see where "MCU Doom" is heading next.

 

Also this entry is pretty interesting if we are doing the whole multiverse thing:

 

Spoiler

"Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs."

 

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Personally, I always imagined kind of a "spoked" multiverse, with Urdak and Hell acting as anchors.  There's only one Urdak, one Hell, but they're both connected all of the parallel universes that make up the multiverse.  The Doomslayer started out in "Earth 1," wound up in Hell, stumbled upon an exit that led to Sentinel Prime, which itself was in a universe that contained "Earth 2," which had not made contact with Hell until Samur's machinations with that universe's UAC.  

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I don't know how I can explain this, but the correct timeline, I think, is Doom, Doom II, Doom 64, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. Doom 3 has its own story, some people say that this was the dream that the Slayer had when he was trapped in that tomb

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Posted (edited)

On the Holt in DLC1, there is a broken Earth in the section after the electric pillar fight where you take the big jump pad to the last part of the map. I always thought it is a destroyed Earth from another multiverse timeline. It's located left, and you can't miss it if you go for the Soulsphere.

 

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The only way to reconcile Classic Doom and new Doom being in the same continuity is if Doom Eternal takes place in an alternate universe. Hell being a singular dimension that binds the other dimensions would make for a plausible explanation for how Doomguy at the end of Doom 64 arrives mysteriously on Argent D'Nur, wounded and raving about demons. There is some "light evidence" to suggest a multiverse - the Doom Eternal artbook mentioning an imploding multiverse, The Khan Maykr's deleted voiceline describing Earth as being from the 7th dimension, DLC 2 saying that Hell is the one original dimension. Doom Eternal's Earth being in a separate universe would also explain why everything in Doom Eternal appears to be happening "for the first time" as there's no reference or hint to a previous invasion that would allude to the events of Classic Doom.

 

That being said, Doom Eternal and its DLCs never go ahead and make the confirmation outright. They never explicitly say where Doomguy is really from. Earth might be from the 7th dimension, but the intro Holt cutscene shows Urdak as being from the 6th dimension - implying that these locations might be the "dimensions" rather than alternate universes as one might initially think. Hell may be the "original dimension", but they never say if it links multiple Earths like the multiverse theory would imply. The story references many events - the fall of Immora, the history of Argent D'Nur, Argenta ruins on Earth, the creation of Doom Hunters on Earth thousands of years ago, the ARC's war against the demons, etc. - but they never reference the events of Doom II or Ultimate Doom. The only hint to the Doom Slayer's true past is apparently a discarded photo in the Fortress of Doom that Hugo claims is of the Slayer's lost family - the only reference to Doom Slayer's origin and it's not even something from Classic Doom.

 

In an interview with Tyler McVicker, Hugo has said that Doom 2016 is a "reboot" that references the story of Doom 64, but reaffirms its status as a reboot. In one of the campaign livestreams, someone once asked if the Spider Mastermind in 2016 is the same one as the 1993 original version - but Hugo hesitated to give a definitive answer. In DLC 1, Samuel Hayden says regarding The Father and the Seraphim: "You and every human on this planet owe your reality to them", implying that the Doom Slayer is from the same Earth as the rest of the people Hayden is referring to.

 

All of the above could be the reason why Hugo has "a different definition" on multiverse and why they never seem to explicitly link Doom Eternal to Classic Doom in terms of story. By my guess, they probably linked to Doom 64's ending and Doom Slayer being Doomguy because they thought it would be a cool reveal for the fans, especially after 2016's positive reception, and didn't really consider the story/continuity implications that would arise and conflict with their new original lore.

 

However, most of this just revolves around Codex implications and statements by Hugo outside the game - which gives them enough wiggle room to change their mind about it in the future if they ever decide to directly address it in the next Doom game. So it's up to the player really if they want to believe if the new games are an alternate universe, a reboot, or something else entirely. At least for now.

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11 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

Yeah it’s confusing. Hugo once said it’s not a multiverse, then said he might have a different definition on multiverse

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/jf1l3c/comment/g9hvef4/

 

so who knows 

Interesting find, thanks! 

 

I always considered his "no multiverse" statement referring to a Arrowverse like multiverse, containing every possible iteration of each character. 

 

The term "dimension", which is also used by the games lore, fits much better than multiverse.

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5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

In an interview with Tyler McVicker, Hugo has said that Doom 2016 is a "reboot" that references the story of Doom 64, but reaffirms its status as a reboot. In one of the campaign livestreams, someone once asked if the Spider Mastermind in 2016 is the same one as the 1993 original version - but Hugo hesitated to give a definitive answer. In DLC 1, Samuel Hayden says regarding The Father and the Seraphim: "You and every human on this planet owe your reality to them", implying that the Doom Slayer is from the same Earth as the rest of the people Hayden is referring to.

[...]

However, most of this just revolves around Codex implications and statements by Hugo outside the game - which gives them enough wiggle room to change their mind about it in the future if they ever decide to directly address it in the next Doom game. So it's up to the player really if they want to believe if the new games are an alternate universe, a reboot, or something else entirely. At least for now.

 

Nice summary, thanks. This does confirm then that nothing in the final game outright confirms what's going on exactly.

 

Also, this one's a bit of a stretch, but when King Novik says "they are no longer your people to save" this seems to imply that Doom Guy lived in this version of Earth at some point - not in the 7th dimension one or whatever. He could just be refering to the mankind in general though, since the Slayer was no longer human at that point.

 

Anyway, I agree that someone at ID probably got hyped with the fan theories and didn't really think the consequences of linking Doom 64 with Doom 2016 all the way through (which to be fair, was pretty awesome). At this point they're clearly not really sure what they're doing with the IP next so they don't want to commit.

 

Wonder if we'll ever get that additional plot dump Hugo keeps aluding to in interviews...

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Multiverse as a concept is getting overused but i always though it'd fit Doom just to justify the different games and timelines.

But not just to Earth, even Hell has its differences in throughout the games, so it being a shapeshifting dimension beyond logic and all would make sense, but i'm not sure if the games even follow that.

 

The thing with the "Doom universe" is how focused it is on new games, so there's always going to be aesthetical and even canon differences from the originals.

Like "Hell tech" going from "Hell making their own tech demons and having a flesh and metal aesthetic" to "UAC/Maykrs/Sentinels gave Hell the tech" to "Immora exists, but also implies a somewhat human civilization that exists in the heart of Hell".

 

A particular problem with the "Doom universe" is that some fans, modders or otherwise, already cared about it/studied and that involved carrying too much about some weird looking textures and obscure material, while most people that know of the "Blazkowicz lineage" haven't even checked sources like the RPG games or the Wolf 3D strategy guide.

So, if there's a middleground between "story doesn't matter, Carmack said do" and "Realm667 asset using mod that tries to fit the aesthetic", the official Doom lore feels like it draws a certain line, since at least from a 2020 February event i recall, Doom got a universe because a lot of other franchises have it.

 

I also only knew Slayer could have been Doomguy because of the memes that inspired it, as in, not just the comic book, but rather certain inside jokes from the fanbase that may or may not correlate with jealously over Halo being more popular or Death Battle.

In some way, the DoomSlayer is like if Sony brought back Tomba and made him quote lines from that one meme speedrun video, which is like Sonic acknowledging Sanic.

Because the "rip and tear" part is something that technically existed officially and not an entirely fan creation.

 

If they deny a multiverse (or at least a certain idea of it), it might be a bit of awareness of how overused it is lately, but at the same time could lead to some new problems.

Because there's a lot of cool ideas in these games that i feel like could have been executed differently, even if that means spin off material with different takes on it, like comic book franchises having different/experimental versions of a character or story.

The Dark Lord in general always felt like a mix of 4 or 5 ideas that could have been seperate and done differently.

 

But i guess something being poorly thought out might at least fit a series whose setting was thought out just for fun and never got too deep.

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The moment I saw the original Doomguy helmet in the cutscene and realised it was a related/multiverse lore I nearly snapped my keyboard in half. I kept playing but from that point on I no longer cared about the story or lore. Multiverses are about the laziest plot mechanism you can use in a story, other than finding out at the end that everything was just a dream...

I honestly thought Doom '16's plot was a remake/retelling of the original Doom's story of the UAC's experiments going haywire on Mars... finding out it was a repeat/parallel continuation was a total cop-out and a slap in the face. The lore and where it was going in Doom '16 was really interesting and had me hooked... Doom Eternal just took a massive lazy dump on it. It reminds me of the absolute ridiculousness of the later Terminator movies (3 - 6) where the multiverse/timelines just turned into a retarded and incomprehensible mess.

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there has been some things that tie most classic id games to the same universe that is classic doom is set on the same universe as quake, quake 2, commander keen and wolfenstein

 

honestly im surprised to see so many people angry at the multiverse thing since quake 1 already established it a long time ago hell quake 3 has doom guy and it is set on a different universe as well and i cant really see how it is equivalent to "its all a dream" since dream endings basically trow the entire story and universe in the trash while multiverse just expands it neither can i see how it is lazy i really like the idea of hell being a singular dimension that travels around the multiverse destroying them to keep expanding and getting more people to become demons

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On 7/27/2021 at 8:52 AM, omalefico32x said:

honestly im surprised to see so many people angry at the multiverse thing since quake 1 already established it a long time ago hell quake 3 has doom guy and it is set on a different universe as well and i cant really see how it is equivalent to "its all a dream" since dream endings basically trow the entire story and universe in the trash while multiverse just expands it neither can i see how it is lazy i really like the idea of hell being a singular dimension that travels around the multiverse destroying them to keep expanding and getting more people to become demons

 

Oh I don't hate it, just to be clear... In fact I don't even think it's such a curveball. It's just a tad overused as a narrative device is all, mainly because of comics.

 

Since we are unifying everything though, we might as well go the extra length and throw Doom 3 in the mix (which Hugo already discarded in an interview). I can't believe they resisted the temptation to retcon this throwaway reference in Doom 3 into something meaningful that would fit the new canon like a glove:

 

Spoiler

image.png.21c9781c493ff41dde4cbb12d9dcfe48.png

 

Video here, 9:03 onwards.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Mike Stu said:

 

Oh I don't hate it, just to be clear... In fact I don't even think it's such a curveball. It's just a tad overused as a narrative device is all, mainly because of comics.

 

Since we are unifying everything though, we might as well go the extra length and throw Doom 3 in the mix (which Hugo already discarded in an interview). I can't believe they resisted the temptation to retcon this throwaway reference in Doom 3 into something meaningful that would fit the new canon like a glove:

 

  Hide contents

image.png.21c9781c493ff41dde4cbb12d9dcfe48.png

 

Video here, 9:03 onwards.

 

 

considering the multverse thing i always though that doom 3 was just set on a different universe where the bj family tree never existed and after doom 3 happened a giant meteor fell on earth destroyng it making the world of rage since rage has some connections to doom 3 the biggest one being the giant mixom building you can see during the entire game

 

man i love connections like this one of the reasons why i love kingdom hearts so much despite the bad writing and obvious product placement

 

oh just another note one thing i notced from new doom is that they dont want to touch on the classic lore so maybe thats why they didnt do anything with doom 3 and why new doom is set on another universe

i remenber a livestream from hugo where he straight up said that he did not know the lore of the doom 64 unmaker and that the unmaykr was something else (not a retcon like people claimed it was) i think the only things from the originals that he has changed is the fact that doom guy has a family and that he looks like the dark lord but i always wondered if those things didnt happen after he entered in the divinity machine since we do not see how he looked like before entering in it in the new games and he spend a long time on hell probably exploring other worlds as well (he even ended up on quake champions) he could have had a family after the classic games

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Posted (edited)

There's nothing wrong with using the multiverse theory in your game. Just because Ultimate Doom, Doom II and Doom 64 took place on another universe don't make them any less important or relevant. But it's pretty clear tho that Hugo has zero ideas about he's doing and is just winging it by now.

Edited by TheRedTide

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I do believe that it's still the same universe (the dialogue was cut and there's no in-game implication that Doomguy came from another dimension), but even if that's true, it's still been roughly over a century since Hell's previous invasion

 

Doom 1 (and presumably 2) took place in 2022 according to supplementary materials, while 2016 and Eternal took place in 2150-somethingorother

 

They'd be ill prepared since this hasn't happened in so long - the panic would be too widespread. Plus the fatality count would be massive too, most likely including important figures (Sam Hayden was chopped in half after all) so mankind would be hindered, and moreover vulnerable enough to be knocked down some pegs

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1 hour ago, Gemidori said:

I do believe that it's still the same universe (the dialogue was cut and there's no in-game implication that Doomguy came from another dimension), but even if that's true, it's still been roughly over a century since Hell's previous invasion

 

Doom 1 (and presumably 2) took place in 2022 according to supplementary materials, while 2016 and Eternal took place in 2150-somethingorother

 

They'd be ill prepared since this hasn't happened in so long - the panic would be too widespread. Plus the fatality count would be massive too, most likely including important figures (Sam Hayden was chopped in half after all) so mankind would be hindered, and moreover vulnerable enough to be knocked down some pegs

 

Yeeea I don't quite buy it. 100 years really isn't that much - I'm sure something as relevant to mankind as the forces of hell invading and killing billions would trigger massive contingency plans and advance research/techonology on how to deal with this kinda stuff. Instead with all the text flavor and audio registries we got in the game, no even aludes to this being a second invasion. My guess is that it was meant to be overtly clear that these are paralel realities, but ID backpedaled on the concept and ended up creating this weird ambiguity that leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2021 at 10:02 AM, Mike Stu said:

 

Yeeea I don't quite buy it. 100 years really isn't that much - I'm sure something as relevant to mankind as the forces of hell invading and killing billions would trigger massive contingency plans and advance research/techonology on how to deal with this kinda stuff. Instead with all the text flavor and audio registries we got in the game, no even aludes to this being a second invasion. My guess is that it was meant to be overtly clear that these are paralel realities, but ID backpedaled on the concept and ended up creating this weird ambiguity that leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

I'm thinkin that too, they seem unsure if this is the same universe or a different one that Doomguy got dumped into - they're probably still trying to decide which to go with.

 

But yeah from what I've seen, there's no real implications that tell that this has happened before, and anything that talks about the invasion doesn't say that it is a *second* Hell invasion, just that it's *THE* invasion - so either this really is a different Earth, or still the same one as the OGs (maybe 3 too) which apparently has worse memory than Dory from Finding Nemo, lol

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On 8/24/2021 at 7:07 AM, Gemidori said:

I'm thinkin that too, they seem unsure if this is the same universe or a different one that Doomguy got dumped into - they're probably still trying to decide which to go with.

 

But yeah from what I've seen, there's no real implications that tell that this has happened before, and anything that talks about the invasion doesn't say that it is a *second* Hell invasion, just that it's *THE* invasion - so either this really is a different Earth, or still the same one as the OGs (maybe 3 too) which apparently has worse memory than Dory from Finding Nemo, lol

Actually, since the street prophet mentions the "mark of the beast" in the opening for Doom Eternal, that means that it takes place in the same universe, because y'know, the Doom Slayer would've become a hero after the Ultimate Doom, Doom II: Hell on Earth, No Rest For The Living, Final Doom, and Doom 64. Since to everyone on Earth it had seemed that he just mysteriously disappeared after Doom 64, religious people probably thought that he might return one day, and when the demons invaded, the street prophet was obviously trying to give the people hope that the Doom Slayer would return now and slay the demons. So yeah, same Earth.

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On 8/24/2021 at 7:07 AM, Gemidori said:

I'm thinkin that too, they seem unsure if this is the same universe or a different one that Doomguy got dumped into - they're probably still trying to decide which to go with.

 

But yeah from what I've seen, there's no real implications that tell that this has happened before, and anything that talks about the invasion doesn't say that it is a *second* Hell invasion, just that it's *THE* invasion - so either this really is a different Earth, or still the same one as the OGs (maybe 3 too) which apparently has worse memory than Dory from Finding Nemo, lol

also doom 64's manual said that the "DOOM" files were classified, explaining why no one remembers him except a highly religious person, mostly because religious beliefs have always stuck around through the ages. we know the manual is canon because doomguy acts erratic and seems to have ptsd, exactly how he is stated to act after being interviewed by therapists in doom 64's manual.

Opera Snapshot_2021-11-15_221634_www.retrogames.cz.png

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On 7/28/2021 at 9:03 PM, Mike Stu said:

 

Oh I don't hate it, just to be clear... In fact I don't even think it's such a curveball. It's just a tad overused as a narrative device is all, mainly because of comics.

 

Since we are unifying everything though, we might as well go the extra length and throw Doom 3 in the mix (which Hugo already discarded in an interview). I can't believe they resisted the temptation to retcon this throwaway reference in Doom 3 into something meaningful that would fit the new canon like a glove:

 

  Hide contents

image.png.21c9781c493ff41dde4cbb12d9dcfe48.png

 

Video here, 9:03 onwards.

 

 

Especially after Doom '16 referenced it explicitly in kind:

Doom2016_SoulCube_ArgentDNur.jpg

It's 100% obvious what this was meant to imply by its artist. That we didn't get any followthrough on this (and the other Doom 3 references, like the Soul Cube that keeps turning up) is one of the things that made me dissatisfied with Eternal and with Hugo's "just winging it" BS. It's not even difficult to work things like this in but he didn't bother. I really hope he will get a real writer next time and stick to game design because that part is pretty good overall despite my occasional difficulty-related complaints.

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2 hours ago, Flamsey said:

Actually, since the street prophet mentions the "mark of the beast" in the opening for Doom Eternal, that means that it takes place in the same universe, because y'know, the Doom Slayer would've become a hero after the Ultimate Doom, Doom II: Hell on Earth, No Rest For The Living, Final Doom, and Doom 64.

 

Not necessarily.

 

The "Mark of the Slayer" specifically refers to the Slayer's Mark, and was a term likely coined by the Dark Lord / Hell when manipulating the Khan Maykr: "The Khan set out to find him - paranoid, afraid of this potential hidden threat the Dark Lord convinced her was close. She would do anything to find and destroy the hidden Beast." The Mark of the Beast has no reference to the Slayer's Classic origins. And since the Hell Priest Deag Ranak also refers to the Slayer as a "Beast", it's likely a term later adopted by the UAC as propaganda against the Slayer. Similar to how the ARC also refer to the demons as "mortally challenged" in reference to the UAC Spokesperson's messages. In that case, the street prophet is likely referencing UAC propaganda when he says "For it is he they fear, not man nor his armies... they fear the Mark of the Beast."

 

There's also the timeline inconsistency issues between the Classic Earth and Slayer Earth. For example, this Codex excerpt on the Doom Hunter's origins: "Continuing the cyber-demonic experimentation that began on Mars, the Cultists study the Agaddon's potential for resurrection and cyber-augmentation. A similar program occurred at this location millennia ago, when Deag Priests (often cited as Hell Priests) bred the creatures and genetically modified them to function as 'Doom Hunters' - fearsome mutants designed to battle the Doom Slayer and his Night Sentinels during the Unholy Crusades on Argent D'Nur." This claims the Doom Hunters were first resurrected from their remains in Earth's arctic from thousands of years ago - to fight the Doom Slayer during his time on Argent D'Nur. If Classic Earth and Slayer Earth are in the same universe, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

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The way I picture the Doomverse setup is kinda like a bicycle wheel, where Hell is the axis, Urdak is the tire, and the spokes in between are the myriad of mortal dimensions (dunno who put that idea forward first, but I swear I read that description somewhere and it made enough sense). Doomguy was born in one "spoke," and after killing the Sister Resurrector got yanked from Hell into a different one that had its own Earth with a similar history (similar enough to have its own UAC at least), but with more direct involvement from Argent D'Nur and especially the Makyrs.

 

Personally I liked the idea floating around back in the 2016 days that the Doom Slayer was a different guy --- a Night Sentinel who sold out Argent D'Nur to revive his son (so yes, he would have been the Betrayer the lore talks about), was betrayed by Hell and went on a one-man wrathful crusade from there for vengeance and atonement. But hey, if their goal was to make Eternal as hype as possible by confirming the "Doomguy = Doom Slayer" theory, I can't say they failed at all at that.

 

Of course Id can't seem to make up their mind on the lore of new-Doom, so who knows how accurate the current theories are (or how much will be retconned with the next game). But I guess one advantage of the multiverse setup is that it's pretty easy now to assume Doom 3 slots into one of the other mortal dimensions, with yet another Earth and UAC mucking about with risky technology.

Edited by kawadec

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18 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

The "Mark of the Slayer" specifically refers to the Slayer's Mark, and was a term likely coined by the Dark Lord / Hell when manipulating the Khan Maykr: "The Khan set out to find him - paranoid, afraid of this potential hidden threat the Dark Lord convinced her was close. She would do anything to find and destroy the hidden Beast." The Mark of the Beast has no reference to the Slayer's Classic origins. And since the Hell Priest Deag Ranak also refers to the Slayer as a "Beast", it's likely a term later adopted by the UAC as propaganda against the Slayer. Similar to how the ARC also refer to the demons as "mortally challenged" in reference to the UAC Spokesperson's messages. In that case, the street prophet is likely referencing UAC propaganda when he says "For it is he they fear, not man nor his armies... they fear the Mark of the Beast."

 

There's also the timeline inconsistency issues between the Classic Earth and Slayer Earth. For example, this Codex excerpt on the Doom Hunter's origins: "Continuing the cyber-demonic experimentation that began on Mars, the Cultists study the Agaddon's potential for resurrection and cyber-augmentation. A similar program occurred at this location millennia ago, when Deag Priests (often cited as Hell Priests) bred the creatures and genetically modified them to function as 'Doom Hunters' - fearsome mutants designed to battle the Doom Slayer and his Night Sentinels during the Unholy Crusades on Argent D'Nur." This claims the Doom Hunters were first resurrected from their remains in Earth's arctic from thousands of years ago - to fight the Doom Slayer during his time on Argent D'Nur. If Classic Earth and Slayer Earth are in the same universe, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

sure, but they could've just been repurposed for this, not nessecarily created for it. Plus, why would a dimension be set a millennia back? That isn't how time works.

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18 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

Not necessarily.

 

The "Mark of the Slayer" specifically refers to the Slayer's Mark, and was a term likely coined by the Dark Lord / Hell when manipulating the Khan Maykr: "The Khan set out to find him - paranoid, afraid of this potential hidden threat the Dark Lord convinced her was close. She would do anything to find and destroy the hidden Beast." The Mark of the Beast has no reference to the Slayer's Classic origins. And since the Hell Priest Deag Ranak also refers to the Slayer as a "Beast", it's likely a term later adopted by the UAC as propaganda against the Slayer. Similar to how the ARC also refer to the demons as "mortally challenged" in reference to the UAC Spokesperson's messages. In that case, the street prophet is likely referencing UAC propaganda when he says "For it is he they fear, not man nor his armies... they fear the Mark of the Beast."

 

There's also the timeline inconsistency issues between the Classic Earth and Slayer Earth. For example, this Codex excerpt on the Doom Hunter's origins: "Continuing the cyber-demonic experimentation that began on Mars, the Cultists study the Agaddon's potential for resurrection and cyber-augmentation. A similar program occurred at this location millennia ago, when Deag Priests (often cited as Hell Priests) bred the creatures and genetically modified them to function as 'Doom Hunters' - fearsome mutants designed to battle the Doom Slayer and his Night Sentinels during the Unholy Crusades on Argent D'Nur." This claims the Doom Hunters were first resurrected from their remains in Earth's arctic from thousands of years ago - to fight the Doom Slayer during his time on Argent D'Nur. If Classic Earth and Slayer Earth are in the same universe, that wouldn't make any sense at all.

also, you are expecting me to think that the praetor suit has been sitting in hell for a millenia, and is only a *bit* rusted??

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1 hour ago, Flamsey said:

sure, but they could've just been repurposed for this, not nessecarily created for it.

 

Exactly, they have been repurposed - but the distinction doesn't matter. I brought it up because the Codex is pointing out that Doom Hunters were resurrected to fight the Doom Slayer millennia ago on Argent D'Nur using their frozen remains on Earth. If this was the same Earth as Classic Doom, that wouldn't make any sense because the Slayer didn't exist thousands of years ago.

 

According to Classic Doom, Doomguy was sent to Mars as a punishment. And according to Doom 2016, Mars was first colonized in 2096 - but Doom 2016 takes place in 2149, which would imply a time period of around 50 years at the most between Ultimate Doom, Doom II, Doom 64, and the events of Doom 2016. This contradicts the Codex on Doom Hunters as mentioned earlier, since the Doom Hunters were first resurrected from Earth to fight the Doom Slayer for way longer than just 50 years ago. In other words, this is a timeline inconsistency between Classic Doom and the Slayer Doom games if we're assuming they take place in the same universe/dimension.

 

1 hour ago, Flamsey said:

Plus, why would a dimension be set a millennia back? That isn't how time works. 

 

Time is relative, the other dimension wouldn't be viewed as "set a millennia back". It's a common fantasy trope to have other dimensions take place in different technological settings / time periods. For example: Marvel's What If series where characters experience their universes in a different time frame from each other, but they all occur relatively concurrent.

 

1 hour ago, Flamsey said:

also, you are expecting me to think that the praetor suit has been sitting in hell for a millenia, and is only a *bit* rusted?? 

 

Yes. It was sealed into a cursed sarcophagus along with the Slayer. Here's a Codex excerpt from Doom 2016 where the Slayer's unusual preservation is highlighted: "The body was not petrified or decomposed - in fact, he appeared to be only sleeping despite the fact that the bed he lay in seemed millennia old."

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The classic and moderns Dooms aren't linked, they're different universes or more accurately a different version of it. There are many similarities that can result in dots being connected, making people draw these conclusions.

 

But various parts of the lore and timelines deviate from each other. I believe many of the similarities in lore and art design are fan / nostalgia pandering. The classic Slayer's armour, demons, UAC, Cyberdemon scars, planets / moons, references to Doom 64 Hell priests etc doesn't mean the universes are linked.

 

The only way to connect all of the games is a multi-universe theory, but I don't believe Hugo confirmed that's how or if the Doom games are linked. What's confirmed is Hell is a single dimension that can be connected to multiple universes. 

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9 hours ago, Chezza said:

The classic and moderns Dooms aren't linked

This is just demonstrably false at this point.

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