Hit-scanner Abuse in Encounter Design

[garudave]

I recently had an experience playing a megawad that made me quit my playthrough.  I found it interesting because one of the main things that stood out to me was abrasive hit-scanner placement.  I've played Plutonia so I have some tolerance for being gunned down, but these hit-scanners were annoying me to no end.

 

The thing that made the placement so abrasive was a continuous emphasis on SWAT-team clearing every angle of every encounter.  It was to the point where you had to expose yourself to other hit-scanners to clear hit-scanners, and sometimes a continuous stream of that sort of gameplay.  For me, it felt antithetical to the momentum-based gameplay of Doom, emphasizing instead cover-shooter style gunplay, sometimes for entire levels.

 

One of my favorite levels of all time is Fortress of Bullets from TNTR, so I'm not opposed to fighting swathes of chaingunners and shotgunners.  My enthusiasm dries out when I have to find the one spot in a room where I don't suffer attrition damage, and pop out systematically to clear out the damage sources.

 

Obviously I didn't make this topic just to whine or start a flame war.  I was just wondering if people enjoy this sort of gameplay in Doom.  Maybe someone can break down how to have fun in a level where you're constantly pinned down and unable to use the luxurious movement options available to you in this game.

[Mystic 256]

its fine when I'm in the mood for it

 

though it is just kinda ironic that shotgunners and chaingunners only take 1 hit to kill (most of the time, sometimes blockmap doesn't like me) yet i just find them the most threatening enemies game, they are able to drain my health more often faster than any of higher tier enemies ><

 

for me Doom kinda has mix of gameplay, there are run and gun moments, there are cover shooter moments, there are horror moments, there are puzzle moments, there are sorta platforming moments too, and I kinda think it adds variety at least for me

[Deadwing]

Chaingun them if they are scattered or Rocket if they are together.

 

If a wad push hard hitscan placement, I also usually tend to play more conservatively, being aware of health and armor placement, covers (static or non-hitscan enemies)

Edited August 6, 2021 by Deadwing

[Cruduxy Pegg]

You are supposed to figure out the safe spots and what parties to clear first. Not all encounters can just be circle strafed. Would be the same deal if there were revs and archviles around.

[garudave]

I'm not really looking for instructions on how to play Doom, I've been playing Doom exclusively for about 6 months now lol.  I understand how to use cover and what enemies to prioritize.  I'm only trying to contend with a feeling that certain maps aren't fun because of the way hit-scanners are used.

 

When I find myself having to memorize a whole map to get through it because of the attrition damage overdose, I say that's a bad map.  If each room has 3+ angles of hit-scanners, it gets frustrating and old fast.

 

So I guess another question is, how much memorization do you want in a Doom map?  I understand maybe the issue is I'm playing pistol-starts and ultraviolence, but I've played and enjoyed a lot of maps that I found challenging, it's just the ones with the fucked up chaingunner/shotgunner placement that get on my nerves. 

 

I feel like a good map should be able to be played reactively (to a certain degree), without memorizing which angles to pre-fire your chaingun when entering each room so you don't eat instant damage.

[Deadwing]

hmmm I'll be honest, I never had problems dealing with hitscanners, and I've played some hitscan heavy stuff (Urania comes in my mind lol).

They're fine most of the times, imo.

[Fairen]

The big problems that a lot of maps that are bad with hitscanners have is that they place hitscanners in positions too far for your vertical auto-aim to pick up while they're firing away at you (e.g. Map 11 of Plutonia), place them in positions you can't get an easy line of sight on while they'll start gunning at you as soon as they catch a glimpse of you (e.g. Map 15 of Plutonia), rely on sudden monster ambushes with a lot of hitscanners (e.g. Map 25 of Plutonia) or just use an overabundance of chaingunners while ignoring the squishier variants (e.g. Map...all of them...of Plutonia).

[7Mahonin]

I enjoy this sort of gameplay in Doom because it makes it feel more intense.

[NuMetalManiak]

2 hours ago, garudave said:

I recently had an experience playing a megawad that made me quit my playthrough.  I found it interesting because one of the main things that stood out to me was abrasive hit-scanner placement.  I've played Plutonia so I have some tolerance for being gunned down, but these hit-scanners were annoying me to no end.

May I ask what the megawad was in question? I'm sure there are plenty of examples of hitscanner-heavy levels like the ones in the Plutonia sagas, HR2, TNT-based levelsets, etc. but it would be good to know what the wad was.

42 minutes ago, Fairen said:

(e.g. Map 11 of Plutonia)

There were hitscanners in Hunted? Unless you meant MAP12 Speed in which case yeah there's a nasty amount of chaingunners in most places.

[HAK3180]

59 minutes ago, garudave said:

When I find myself having to memorize a whole map to get through it because of the attrition damage overdose, I say that's a bad map.  If each room has 3+ angles of hit-scanners, it gets frustrating and old fast.

 

So I guess another question is, how much memorization do you want in a Doom map?  I understand maybe the issue is I'm playing pistol-starts and ultraviolence, but I've played and enjoyed a lot of maps that I found challenging, it's just the ones with the fucked up chaingunner/shotgunner placement that get on my nerves. 

 

I feel like a good map should be able to be played reactively (to a certain degree), without memorizing which angles to pre-fire your chaingun when entering each room so you don't eat instant damage.

 

This is all a matter of taste. I also prefer, in general, a campaign that requires less knowledge of the maps and allows a faster pace, but I certainly welcome a section here and there, or a map in a set here and there that is much more about strategy and/or requires you to slow down or be more methodical. I think variety is good in a longer map or a set. But there is definitely a market for maps that average - very good players should not expect to beat on Ultra-Violence on their first attempt.

 

But not only is it a matter of taste, but even these descriptions are also subjective, depending on your Doom skill. One person's "This is pure hindsight! All you can do is try and die!" is another person's "Oh, I immediately understood in that situation the best thing to do would be X, then Y, all while trying to work on Z." Just as we all recognize immediately that sergeants are usually higher priority than imps and therefore would not really consider that "strategy," so the best Doomers feel the same about much more complex situations that might cause us plebeians to say "This definitely requires foreknowledge!"

 

And to state the obvious, no one can comment specifically since you have not made known the wad in question.

[garudave]

Sure, the mapset in question was Deadwing's Moonblood.  Specifically once I got to the middle third, I started to feel less and less desire to continue.  Mining Site, Hellish Shrine, and Dobu Gabu's Exam all annoyed me, but BFG Experiments was the map that put the nail in the coffin for me.  I just felt like every encounter had a specific solution that I had to piece together through trial-and-error.

 

I was reluctant to mention which megawad it was because Deadwing is so active here.  So I just want to stress, there were plenty of maps I enjoyed in the set.  My favorite was Toxic Treatment Lab, which has some great tension with rad-suit management and very fun encounters that never feel tedious or abusive (to me anyways).

 

I'm trying to come at it from an angle of "help me enjoy these maps", in case that isn't clear.  I've beaten/enjoyed maps that were significantly harder than the ones in question, and I really enjoy Plutonia, which is maybe more egregious with the hit-scanner placement, but never hit me as hard with trial-and-error vibes as Moonblood does.

 

I know I can just reduce the difficulty, but I'm trying to appreciate the design approach, and I don't think watering it down to make it more palatable is doing it justice, if that makes sense.  

[Deadwing]

No problem, @garudave!

 

Actually you aren't the first to complain about hitscanner placement on moonblood (or even monster placement in general), as the mapset is indeed quite finnicky regarding their placement. I like the way it is, maybe more than I should lol (also adding that the maps can be quite confusing regarding exploration it will definitely be double fustration to some players).

 

If you don't feel like lowering the difficulty, I would say that progressing slowly and being aware of the surrondings helps a lot with the hitscanners behind the corners. Also, exploring the environment and keeping check of health packs and armors helps a lot (it's probably not your case, but I saw some players barely getting healthpacks in one room and just progressing to another with low health and an inevitable death)

Edited August 6, 2021 by Deadwing

[P41R47]

3 hours ago, garudave said:

For me, it felt antithetical to the momentum-based gameplay of Doom, emphasizing instead cover-shooter style gunplay, sometimes for entire levels.

This statement got me intrigued, why you think there is a normative way to play Doom?

A good player is not the one that blaze through all maps, its the one that knows how to adapt to different situations.

And since there are a lot of mappers on the Dooming scene, there are almost infinite variations to how Doom can and could be played.

 

55 minutes ago, garudave said:

I know I can just reduce the difficulty, but I'm trying to appreciate the design approach, and I don't think watering it down to make it more palatable is doing it justice, if that makes sense.

No, it not makes sense, sorry.

If you are not enjoying the difficulty, reduce it. And if you not enjoy it either, just not play it.

Is simple as that.
There is a myth that goes by ''UV is the complete experience, playing the lower difficulties is not'' that its totally wrong.

The mappers design their maps on every difficulty to be beatable, so they are a complete experience on their own directed to different players with different skills.

You can play on lower difficulties.

There is nobody pointing a gun to your head saying ''hey, play UV or die''.

So you can play it however you want.
(I play keyboard only when i want challenge on mapsets i knew like my own hand)

 

Concerning about things concerning encounter designs, i like when mappers take you out of the confort zone.

I tend to play on a conservative way as i prefer getting INTO the game, feeling the protagonist, and not just gaming.
(saving one time after 5 maps doesn't help either :P ahaha)

So i love when a mapper only gives me the rocket launcher on very tight spaces to move with bulky enemies (Three's a Crowd).
Or when i only have a limited stock of ammo on a very open space to face an incomming wave of teleporting enemies (pistol starting most modern mapsets)

[Not Jabba]

It's been a while since I played Moonblood specifically (though I can confirm that all maps are beatable). To answer the broader question, it sounds like you're focusing on the idea of methodically sniping enemy hitscanners from a position of safety, which usually isn't the philosophy of more challenging Doom maps in general, in my experience. Cover is a resource, but generally the people who are skilled at and enjoy these types of maps are the ones who have learned skills related to playing more aggressively -- knowing when to take some hits in order to clear threats more quickly and efficiently, for instance, or diving into a new area with more resources rather than retreating to a corner (this also draws said hitscanners into infighting with other enemies you haven't killed yet), as well as keeping note of where to grab health and armor like Deadwing said. The feeling of playing this way can be pretty exhilarating. I don't want to make assumptions about your playstyle, but SG/SSG are usually not preferable weapons in the types of situations you're talking about, even though the idea of a one-hit KO with a hitscan weapon is intuitively tempting; the chaingun's stunlock is more useful, and RL/plasma are much more efficient for sweeping out the enemies; I've also seen some streamers preempt with the BFG, deliberately shooting a wall and then immediately diving out of cover so that the tracers wipe out several chaingunners/shotgunners at once before they can react and shoot. It takes some time to get used to playing on the balls of your feet, so to speak, but if there's one defining principle of how challenging combat is designed these days, it's moving rather than standing still. In other words, in most cases you should be able to beat the hitscanners by amping up your speed and momentum in conjunction with an awareness of cover, rather than grinding to a halt and corner-camping. I don't intend this as criticism or telling you to git gud, but it seems like you're genuinely interested in learning how people handle this type of combat, so hopefully this is the answer you're looking for.

[garudave]

@Deadwing: Thanks for the tips!  I've decided to take a break from playing Moonblood but I'll keep that in mind when I inevitably return to finish it.  The maps are interesting and unique so I don't regret the time I've spent with it, just feeling a little more frustrated than I usually do when Dooming.  Nice of you to not take my comments personally.

 

@P41R47: It's not so much that I mind cover-shooting in Doom, it is mandatory when you're fighting hit-scanners after all.  I think being pinned down over and over again can get tedious though, just as excessive circle strafing can get tedious.  As to the comments about Ultraviolence, I think you're right and functional difficulty settings should fix some of my gripes with a given megawad.

 

@Not Jabba: Thanks for the tips.  I do use the chaingun for its stunlocking function, but not so much the BFG cover-fire option.  I'll have to practice that technique.  I think I'll watch some Doomers and see if I can pick up other techniques, particularly for blind-playthroughs.

 

Thanks for the replies guys, this is helpful!  I think part of my issue might be a little bit of burn-out, since I may be over-indulging my Doom obsession.  I'll update this topic when I end up finishing Moonblood, since now I have canonized some sort of vendetta with it lol.

[GarrettChan]

I didn't read the other comments because I'm lazy. Also, I haven't finished Moonblood, so maybe I'm just spilling random thoughts here instead of pinpointing the question you've asked.

 

For real though, I personally can't really say I would/wouldn't enjoy hitscanner spam. Though, sometimes the way it kind of forces you speed up a bit in a map instead of slowly taking care of everything makes me like it, eg: Plutonia Map15.

 

Then, memorizing the map is an eternal topic about Doom mapping to be honest. I guess it boils down to whether a map is intended for a fun blind experience. I personally did quite a bit of speedruns, so I don't mind memorizing it, but in the meantime, it definitely will make the map not a fun blind experience if the mappers gave you nothing. IMO, projectile based monsters are easier to inspect before you're getting into the fight, but hitscanner spam is more like... you just lose health and nothing you can do about it...

 

And whenever talking about hitscanner, I have to post this stupid crap :P

Spoiler

 

 

[7Mahonin]

In speaking of chaingun I’d recommend to try tapping the chaingun too instead of just holding down fire in every situation as well. Doing so allows every 2 shots to retain accuracy and isn’t really any slower than holding it down. 

[garudave]

@GarrettChan: I fuckin' love map 15 of Plutonia, so count that as a total contradiction of my stated opinions.  I guess I do have a tolerance of memorization in map design, just not when it includes following a script-like sequence of actions.  Which Moonblood likely doesn't, I just started to get that feeling as I was tackling the levels. 

 

Edit: I actually am a fan of Stronghold too lol, so I guess that makes me sound real dumb.

[GarrettChan]

13 minutes ago, garudave said:

@GarrettChan: I fuckin' love map 15 of Plutonia, so count that as a total contradiction of my stated opinions.  I guess I do have a tolerance of memorization in map design, just not when it includes following a script-like sequence of actions.  Which Moonblood likely doesn't, I just started to get that feeling as I was tackling the levels. 

 

Edit: I actually am a fan of Stronghold too lol, so I guess that makes me sound real dumb.

 

I guess ultimately, it becomes how mappers used things obviously. I was playing Deus Vult II recently and I'm really not a fan of how it uses hitscanners even though the maps don't really abuse them, but it is just whenever you turned a corner, there's a SGer or CGer behind you, which is... meh.

 

I only played a few levels of Moonblood, so your thoughts made me interested in trying it after the one I'm currently playing. I played Exomoon from Deadwing. I have to say, Deadwing's style of mapping feels unique (neutral meaning), but I can't tell what's with that... Therefore, maybe it's the style you have problem of instead of actually hitscanners? I don't know. The more you play, it will definitely run into this type of situation more. Sometimes you just feel your body hates something unconsciously, but you don't know why, haha.

[rehelekretep]

@garudave i played all of moonblood (i think i even did some testing for Deadwing on Moonblood X) and i didnt find any of it 'hitscan heavy' or see it as an issue at all.

ill echo what @Not Jabba said and say youre maybe not prioritising or approaching some encounters optimally.

here's my FDA (that is, never having played the map before) collection. it may be helpful:

[galileo31dos01]

Hitscanners are an integral part of doom you have no other choice than to live with them, and most of the time there simply isn't much (or anything) you can do to avoid a hit or two if the rng decides so. I mean, sure, a sergeant stealthily popping behind corner dealing an instant +35 dmg shot before you can even see it coming, or a chaingunner retaliating through pain states from your chaingun tapping, that sort of stuff in sequence can heat the blood in the long term if you're easily sensitive (like me), so you just eat that bullet and move on, lower the skill and test the waters, or play something else like heretic or rekkr. 

 

Generally mappers of nowadays are very aware of how they want their stuff to work so that when there's hitscan hell going on, you're demanded to exercise those quick reactions, snag that health and armor over there, and stay moving forwards while shooting at what needs to be shot in the right moment, without necessarily relying on cover-shooting for long periods of time, because doing so could be counterproductive with other threats involved. This obviously isn't always the case, as styles between mappers vary of course. Different perspective was in the old days, since back then most people played on continuous by default, which was reflected in the mapping design, specially by pistol starting wads like Obituary or Armadosia on the highest skills, which both have pitched use of early hitscan jamboree in several maps that would otherwise be nothing if you're carrying the armor vest you found at the end of the previous map.

[leodoom85]

Funnily enough, the issue that I had with Moonblood weren't the hitscanners themselves. It's the surprise ambushes that involves reasonable stronger monsters (especially archviles and revenants) and some traps. Yes, it can be annoying to deal with but, you learn from them quickly.

I recorded the whole thing (Deadwing knows) and I had fun with it. Of course, it's all a matter of tastes, so....it's normal to quit a wad to take a rest from it and try to finish it later.

[VanaheimRanger]

I played Moonblood recently, but I don't recall having much of an issue with this sort of thing, but...I was playing it in VR, so that changes a lot of the aspects of gameplay.

[garudave]

Sounds like it's a me thing lol.  Thanks for the pro-tips guys, maybe I just need to sharpen up my game.  Might just be an off week for me.

[Vorpal]

I only recently started checking out streams/casual play (before, the only time I'd watch other people play doom was e.g. speedruns). An amazing amount of players favor tiptoe movements into encounters, and cheesing the chaingun's first shot for sniping everything possible from safety before committing to entering a space. We can therefore assume that a similar ratio of mappers play this way, too. Not saying that is the case with the mapset in question but just "there's flavors of ice cream for everyone" out there. Also all the mapping help threads advise people to "use monsters for their strengths!!!1" which means placing chaingunners and revenants in sniping asshole spots whenever one places chaingunners or revenants.

[Maggle]

I'm curious why something else that is hitscanner heavy like Plutonia or TNTR would be ok, but Moonblood wouldn't be. I haven't played Moonblood, but is does it have something to do with the amount of directions enemies come at you from, and less the density? Because those have a whole lot of hitscanners but they generally only come at you from one or two directions at once. This can make things more challenging, but generally perfectly avoidable. Being literally surrounded might make it less so, and i can see how that can be annoying. Having hitscanners at long distances you can't conveniently return fire at is never fun either, unless you're playing something that adds a sniper rifle or something.

 

Personally I don't really mind hitscanner-heavy maps a whole lot, even ones where the odds are overwhelming. Sometimes it's fun to play more tactically, even if it's generally not my preferred playstyle. When you're weaving between cover and eliminating key enemies one by one methodically, it slows the pace down a lot, sure. But it can be pretty rewarding, because it's harder to do and it feels like you just outsmarted the game in a way.

[leodoom85]

3 minutes ago, Maggle said:

I'm curious why something else that is hitscanner heavy like Plutonia or TNTR would be ok, but Moonblood wouldn't be.

Actually, the first....like...15 maps, are hitscanner heavy. The later maps are based on stronger enemies with hitscanners here and there. 

[garudave]

8 hours ago, Maggle said:

does it have something to do with the amount of directions enemies come at you from, and less the density? 

 

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in the op, you're generally getting plinked on from multiple angles in many of the middle maps and it becomes grating.  Deadwing is also a demon when it comes to placing chaingunners above/below your sight line or in windows that just fuck you up.  The opening room of map 31 comes to mind, there are many angles to cover and it requires a meticulous route.  I really don't mind meticulous gameplay but it works best when mixed in with other types of gameplay in Doom imo.