[Poll] What standard would you like to see next?

[GoneAway]

I'm curious what game people would be interested in to receive a new standard, after the dust from MBF21 settles. You can select multiple games. There's no timeline or expectations about that - ultimately these things are limited by adoption and interest, just starting to think about the future :^)

 

[omx32x]

time to show heretic some love

[Alper002]

All of these sound great! Heretic and Hexen are probably most needing some additional features, though. Hexen less than Heretic, but the addition of a reliable dehacked equivalent for Hexen would be great!

 

 

Realized I wanted a few things in case of a Hexen feature extension, here's a wishlist of the biggest things I want:

Capabilities of a dehacked equivalent

Either make it possible to keep voodoo dolls past the first visit of a map, OR expand ACS such that you can arbitrarily give items. (low priority, but dangit I want to be able to have puzzles where you move puzzle items about!)

Ways to disable the following:

• A bug with Porkalators erasing the TIDs of everything if used on a tagged monster.
• A quirk wherein things trying to spawn on the same horizontal position, but not vertical, as something solid that's already there will fail.
• Tag_Wait waiting for the next sector movement to stop, rather than immediately being done waiting if the tagged sectors aren't moving.
• Probably more things if I come to think of them.

Wishlist for all possibilities:

Some silly and/or quirky option that changes the game in some weird way so someone can have fun trying to design around it. Before I knew what "monkeys" actually did it sounded silly enough that I wanted to try making something with it. That wouldn't stop me from trying to make a map or a set where all enemies can drop off cliffs, but then there's no implicit monkeys :(

 

 

Whatever the case, it'll be interesting to see what additional features we will see!

[Tango]

MBF21 is awesome! can't wait for whatever's next, whether it does end up being in doom or heretic/hexen. @kraflab do you have a rough idea of what kinds of things would be part of MBF22?

[Alaux]

55 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Heretic and Hexen are probably most needing some additional features

While I don't really have any interests for Heretic and Hexen and myself would prefer more stuff for Doom, I can't help but agree with this, those two need some attention.

[boris]

I don't really see a point in making up a MBF21 equivalent for Heretic or Hexen, since modding for them isn't held back as it was for Boom. The ports that support Heretic/Hexen already have advanced modding capabilities (that exceed MFB21), so the "only" advantage would be cross-port compatibility.

 

So my vote goes to MBF22, since that seems to be of most use for the community as a whole.

[El Juancho]

I like doom more than the rest so I would be much more interested if you made improvements for doom, but I would also like some love for heretic and hexen :)

[GoneAway]

2 minutes ago, boris said:

The ports that support Heretic/Hexen already have advanced modding capabilities (that exceed MFB21), so the "only" advantage would be cross-port compatibility.

Crispy and dsda-doom support heretic / hexen but don't have advanced modding capabilities.

[GoneAway]

27 minutes ago, Tango said:

MBF21 is awesome! can't wait for whatever's next, whether it does end up being in doom or heretic/hexen. @kraflab do you have a rough idea of what kinds of things would be part of MBF22?

Let's say that there are some rough ideas going around but I won't say any specifics, since they are just ideas :^)

[punch you in the face man]

A new Doom map format with backported features from Hexen (ACS, polyobjects, etc.), sort of like ZDoom's Doom-in-Hexen. Might be completely out of scope for DSDA-Doom and/or useless since ZDoom already exists, but it seems possible with DSDA-Doom's new Hexen support.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

4 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Let's say that there are some rough ideas going around but I won't say any specifics, since they are just ideas :^)

My mind is going: please say Damage Types, please say Damage Types, please say Damage Types :D

[Walter confetti]

Heretic and Hexen need a new format!

[Graf Zahl]

It may make a little sense to give other port developers a bit of breathing room to catch up. If you go too fast you may lose some here.

 

Also, before adding any more features, let's please consider adding a higher level actor definition format to make use of the unlimited entries to all these lists. If you add more and more stuff to the engine this may later become harder than necessary because it needs to consider all that stuff.

 

 

[SilverMiner]

Add a feature: line action that applies a custom colormap to target sector

49 minutes ago, Walter confetti said:

Heretic and Hexen need a new format!

Hexen compared to Heretic is doing pretty well, while at the same time as the latter craves for Boom features.

[GoneAway]

29 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

It may make a little sense to give other port developers a bit of breathing room to catch up. If you go too fast you may lose some here.

Ya, we have no plan to do anything soon, for this reason. This is just thinking a bit into the mid term for what's worth looking at on the horizon :^)

[Nikku4211]

I've always thought DEHExtra, UMAPINFO, and MBF21 were weird.

 

Why make these standards for ports like PrBoom+ when you can just try to work within the limitations of the DeHackEd that the original MBF and the original Boom support?

 

I've seen quite a few people in the Doom community over the years use false dichotomy arguments when it comes to Boom/MBF(Pr or not) vs. ZDoom. Y'know, arguments like 'If you want to make extensive enemy modifications, use ZDoom, it has Decorate.', which stem from the truth that plenty of people who play Doom just stick to GZDoom anyway and don't care at all for other single-player source ports.

 

With people like that, then things like MBF21 and DEHExtra come as a surprise, because I wasn't entirely sure how many people who were of the false dichotomy mindset I previously mentioned were in the Doom community.

 

I personally see value in trying to experiment with multiple old source ports and what they have to offer over other old source ports, which is why I was sad when I learned about Fusion, a source port that already added hundreds more dummy DeHackEd frames, and is already doomed to obscurity.

[P41R47]

Heretic and Hexen need a proper dehacked equivalent.

I know Hehacked exist, but it isn't complete.

If that is reached, then maybe a MBF21 equivalent for them, too.

[Noiser]

All I want now is a DOS port that incorporate DEHExtra features. May create an entire game out of this. Thanks =^_^=
 

Spoiler

Quote from this thread:
 

Quote

I would love to see DEHExtra implemented on DOS ports, that would be phenomenal for stand alone\indie releases - one that could be released for ports like GZDoom but also as an alternate DOS title (think of games like Xeno Crisis that was released on Steam but also for the Sega Genesis - or Retro City Rampage that have an actual 486 version of the game). Making games for old hardware is fun, I have a lot of interest on that possibility and DEHExtra would make a big difference in that regard.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Noiser

[Nikku4211]

7 minutes ago, Noiser said:

All I want now is a DOS port that incorporate DEHExtra features. May create an entire game out of this. Thanks =^_^=

Yes, please.

 

Doom is a DOS game, it'd be awesome if we saw more DOS source ports come out nowadays to run on the very same old IBM compatibles that ran the original Doom in the mid-90s without having to boot into Windows 9x.

[dmdr]

realistically more people mod for Doom so it should always be priority A1. I voted MBF22

 

I already have some ideas based on things I've wanted to do with my sekrit solo project but have been frustrated:

STOIC flag that turns off pain. You can achieve the same effect by unsetting SHOOTABLE but that looks goofy (I have a barrel thingy that replicates itself when pained, but that  can be pained too which leads to infinite self-replication sometimes)

A_IfTargetFurther codepointer for sniper monsters

Counter codepointers. There's lots you could do with these esp. if added alongside custom pickups that can set 'em; I'm thinking upgradeable weapons (put A_JumpIfCounter codepointers at the start of the raise etc. states to go straight to the upgraded version), quad damage (jump to a state with quadruple damage attacks when set; this could be timed by having a map thing that ticks the counter down every 35 frames providing it's above 0), enemies that get bored after a while of not seeing you (eg. spawns in Copper for quake), weapons that get more powerful the longer you hold down the fire button (the classic Q2 chaingun) etc.

A_GetClosestTarget for monsters that just switch targets regularly

More ammo types

Damage types too (I mostly want different sounds to play when being burned by lava etc.)

 

I want UMAPINFO extended a bit too (none of these would require a new standard so any sympathetic port authors can consider these feature requests):

per-map PLAYPAL. DSDA-Doom allows the player to switch palettes on the fly so why not allow the mapper to do it too? In particular, episodes with their own palettes would be dope (eg. a snow and ice episode could use ColdPal, while an underwater episode could use a bluish palette). Format could be something like Palette = PLAYPAL1

per-map COLORMAP (as above)

per-map sound replacements. I'm mostly thinking about doors here but a hypothetical underwater episode could have different, bubbly monster death noises and stuff too. Format could be something like ReplaceSound = DSSTNMOV:DSNEWMOV(or use the dehacked numbers)

 

I actually have a use case for these already:

dbp0105compo_200711.zip

I made this compilation of DBP01-05 a while ago, but never released it outside of Doomer Boards because 40oz (who project led all of them) never gave it his blessing and because the lack the custom palette for DBP02 and various sound replacements makes it the non-definitive version. Still, it was one of the earliest DEHEXTRA (and UMAPINFO) projects and that may be of interest to people so I'm 'releasing' it now.

[GoneAway]

27 minutes ago, dmdr said:

A_IfTargetFurther codepointer for sniper monsters

Can't A_JumpIfTargetCloser achieve this decision already?

[Dragonfly]

I don't know if this is the place for a request necessarily, but I'd personally love to see support for per-map palettes, if that's even feasible. Perhaps as part of the UMAPINFO feature set?

[dmdr]

@kraflabIn an annoying kind of way. In my specific case I have a baron replacement that uses more powerful attacks the more you hurt him and will vary his attacks based on how far away you are; currently I'd prefer him to prioritise his sniper attacks at distance even when hurt but having only ...TargetCloser makes this difficult, since if I want him ever to use his wounded states I need to put A_JumpIfHealthBelow (or whatever it is, too lazy to check) first and then have duplicate ...TargetClosers in those states. It's not very elegant as you can probably tell from this obnoxiously convoluted explanation

 

@Dragonfly since DSDA-Doom already allows that through a cheat code and Doom switches palettes all the time anyway (pain! pickups! invuln! etc.) I'd say it's feasible

[P41R47]

24 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

I don't know if this is the place for a request necessarily, but I'd personally love to see support for per-map palettes, if that's even feasible. Perhaps as part of the UMAPINFO feature set?

since this good man come up with an idea that i also thought about a few years back, i remember the whole train of thoughts of it.

One thing that would be interesting to be able to do, is to have a limit to the resource being use during gameplay.
What i try to say is kinda the following.
You play with the base resources and textures, but want a total different look for the secret maps, so it would be cool to be able to manage that, somehow.
For example, that all the graphics are replaced for more cartoon ones only on the secret maps, and they come back to normal for the rest of the levels.

Edited August 28, 2021 by P41R47

[floatRand]

Being able to pick colormap per-map would be wonderful. It is not frankly a compat-level feature since it doesn't affect game behavior itself and could be umapinfo thing. 

[Wavy]

If we do get an MBF22, I want an easy way to tag a COLORMAP to a sector to have proper coloured sectors even when standing outside of the sector. Using linedef type 242 never really did it for me.

[ChopBlock223]

How about being able to apply any included palette set onto any defined sprites or textures?

 

Like a palette definition that lists specified ranges of frames, patches, sprites, etc, and which palette will be used for it?

Optionally truecolor .png support, I don't know if either are feasible though.

 

Colored sector lighting and fast strobes like in Doom 64 would also be cool, perhaps with a safety toggle in options.

[Tango]

some things I'd love to personally see in a hypothetical MBF22, many of which have been mentioned already in this thread:

 

• custom powerups (with effects like weapon firing speed modifiers, damage factor modifiers, etc.)
• per-map PLAYPAL and COLORMAP
• finitely tall monsters
• hub support (can exit to arbitrary maps, at arbitrary starting points, with map state preserved)
• custom damage types for both player and monsters
• [super longshot here] support for compile-time lightmaps ala Strife Veteran Edition

[Shepardus]

2 minutes ago, Tango said:

• custom powerups (with effects like weapon firing speed modifiers, damage factor modifiers, etc.)

Quad damage is the one thing missing from Doom IMO.

[MattFright]

There are several reasons an MBF21 equivalent to Heretic/Hexen would be great, and why someone would choose those instead of ports that support DECORATE or EDF, that some people don't seem to be thinking about:

 

-Most of those ports run really bad for a lot of people who would instead use something like DSDA

-Most of those ports have very small playerbases (GZDoom being the only exception i can think of)

-Not depriving Heretic/Hexen entirely of demos more than they already are would be cool

-A big reason (admittedly not the biggest, but still) that those games don't get as many custom wads as Doom is that, realistically speaking, you're either supposed to go to GZDoom or deal with their very flawed vanilla balancing. Those standards could help popularize them again.

 

 

In the end i think i'm going to be happy with any outcome of the 3, but Heretic is the game that by far needs newer modding capabilities, and i really don't want to see it stuck in this cycle/self-fulfilling prophecy of "well GZDoom is already an option, so why bother?!" causing it to never get any love from non-ZDoom based ports, and i really hope i'm not the only one who sees this.