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Captain POLAND

The ULTIMATE slaughter map!

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Making fights with too many monsters and making a map with tens of thousands of enemies at once exclusive to zdoom are not good ideas as fights will get tedious and boring most likely and zdoom cannot handle such amounts of enemies. I discourage you from undertaking this endeavor as you will most certainly not be fulfilled by it and most people will simply refuse to play it.

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5 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

Could it be done so that the monsters spawn in in segments, like you clear one room and then the next empty room is suddenly filled with monsters?

 

Even if scripted spawning would do it you are kind of missing the point about it being a terrible idea. No one's going to play except for maybe ten minutes out of morbid curiosity. 

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6 hours ago, Captain POLAND said:

Well what about using scripting to make it so that, for example, once you kill a room full of 1000 monsters and enter the next room, the next 2000 monsters will spawn? So they're not all in the map in the beginning?

At that point just have a megawad with around 31250 monsters in each map.

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I kinda want to make the following in my temple of the robot devil map now:

 

- place an archvile that when killed spawns another archvile after first removing the old body (would likely require a tag) and then make that archvile continue this cycle 100 million times... so that there is always an archvile on the map (and I can claim the map has 100 million archviles)

 

- place a box of ammo that respawns indefinetly each time it is picked up (likely possible with scripting)

 

- place a meditkit that respawns indefinetly each time it is picked up (likely possible with scripting)

 

- make a BFG spawn after the player has killed 100 million archviles

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Enjoy testing your map in GZDoom at 1fph. (That's 1 frame per hour.)

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the highest monster count Ive seen is in experiencing nirvana map 17 with 164,000 zombie men in a giant box. I don't think there is enough room on the map that doom is able to calculate to fit a million monsters. Regardless, good luck!

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4 hours ago, Pyethon said:

what wad is this?

 

I'd be shocked if anyone remembered, but it doesn't matter. I edited it to make a repeating script run every tic that removes all things, spawns 16384 monsters, and kills all monsters. I let the map run for a while today and hit a limit with the zdoom kill counter, it went negative some time after 2 billion kills and continued counting up to zero.

 

howmany4.png

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I don't care what other people do, but I'm warning you:
You may not like what you create.

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On 9/10/2021 at 5:52 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

Your monsters will leave corpses, you also need the ammo, health and armour to kill everything...

 

You (and by you I mean @Captain POLAND) could just give the player infinite ammo if you don't want to place half a million cell packs on the map. As for corpses, wouldn't modifying the monster death animations so they all go to frame 0 solve this? Thanks to brutal Doom I think every monster has some kind of gib animation now, so it would be a case of making every monster gib by default, and modifying the animation so they appear to disintegrate into nothing.

 

On 9/10/2021 at 5:52 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

You're gonna have fights with tens of thousands of things active at the same time.... meaning: the game needs to calculate where shit moves, where it aims, if it infights, etc... And don't even think about numbers like that in ports like GZDoom, because the larger overhead it has for "thing management" is going to put your ideas to a screeching halt before you even know what happened....

 

In principle, I think MBF 21 has enough scope to avoid having too many monsters active at once, without the need for scripting and, therefore, gzdoom's limitations on body counts. You would need to create many new things, that are not affected by physics, and that spawn X numbers of monsters when woken up by a gunshot. Place those things on conveyer belts outside the map so that everything they spawn is moved out of the way (so they can't spawn inside each other). The resulting army then teleports into the map. 100 fights of 10,000 each would be pretty doable I think, although it would still be a lot of work to make and wouldn't necessarily be more than a novelty to play.

 

Also, I recommend you use this MIDI.

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6 hours ago, Krull said:

In principle, I think MBF 21 has enough scope to avoid having too many monsters active at once

In principle, you guys aren't seeing things for what the fuck they are...

 

You can't run obscene numbers in GZDoom without causing severe issues for most if not all players out there, because the overhead is too fucking huge...

 

You also can't make maps with millions of things in for example boom/MBF21 formats, because while you get the smaller overhead, you then run into problems with regards to geometry you can put down... meaning: mapsize limitations make endeavours like millions of monsters impossible, unless you wanna run around in the same 3 - 4 rooms for several hours, because that's the height of what you're gonna get out these ports if you wanna accommodate anything larger than 100,000 monsters at a time... and don't get me started on static limits such as how many linedefs are possible to use... you have to run those "machines" somehow, and you still want playable areas...

 

it's just not realistic... especially not if you want anything in such a behemoth map to have even the slightest hint of quality to it...

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31 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

In principle, you guys aren't seeing things for what the fuck they are...

 

You can't run obscene numbers in GZDoom without causing severe issues for most if not all players out there, because the overhead is too fucking huge...

 

You also can't make maps with millions of things in for example boom/MBF21 formats, because while you get the smaller overhead, you then run into problems with regards to geometry you can put down... meaning: mapsize limitations make endeavours like millions of monsters impossible, unless you wanna run around in the same 3 - 4 rooms for several hours, because that's the height of what you're gonna get out these ports if you wanna accommodate anything larger than 100,000 monsters at a time... and don't get me started on static limits such as how many linedefs are possible to use... you have to run those "machines" somehow, and you still want playable areas...

 

it's just not realistic... especially not if you want anything in such a behemoth map to have even the slightest hint of quality to it...

 

Did you even read my post? Nowhere did I suggest running 1,000,000 monsters simultaneously. Rather, the suggestion was to use custom things whose sole purpose is to run the SPAWN command say, 50 times in a row, so you only need 20,000 of them on the map to generate the requisite number of monsters. This is already possible in regular MBF, but you would have greater flexibility with the extra frames and thing slots afforded by MBF 21, since you could have one for each type of monster. 

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7 hours ago, Krull said:

Did you even read my post?

yes, and I'll repeat what I said previously: you're not seeing things for what the fuck they are....

 

you can't split a map with >1M monsters into segments of like 10 - 20k each in DSDA-Doom, because while the port is limit removing, it still has static limits of its own... you'll literally run out of lines before you've accommodated even a fraction of that one million or more.... it's really that damn simple, and I don't get what's so hard to grasp about this... unless you want a "nuts upscale" this is the problem you'll run into, and no amount of MBF trickery is going to change anything about it...

 

conversely, GZDoom is going to be flipping the bird in the direction of most, if not all players, because managing that many things at once, with that overhead, in an extremely large map, is going to get bottlenecked the moment that mob makes contact with the gamesim and how it only supports single core... ironically, GZDoom would allow for enough lines to facilitate a map of the appropriate size, and scripting could maybe help make something work without choking the port to death on map start, but unleash 10 - 20 % of the map's "population" (no matter how you do that from a methodical POV), and you're in dire straits faster than you can press alt + F4

 

you'd need GZDoom's "unlimited" linedefs, paired with DSDA-Doom's overhead efficiency to even get anywhere near a map sizeable and varied enough so you don't end up with giant and rather empty rectangles and triangles...

 

it's not about "not having everything pre-placed"... it's about either port being unable to accommodate some aspect(s) of such a behemoth map no matter which way you look...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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10 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

you can't split a map with >1M monsters into segments of like 10 - 20k each in DSDA-Doom, because while the port is limit removing, it still has static limits of its own... you'll literally run out of lines before you've accommodated even a fraction of that one million or more.... it's really that damn simple, and I don't get what's so hard to grasp about this... unless you want a "nuts upscale" this is the problem you'll run into, and no amount of MBF trickery is going to change anything about it...

 

you'd need GZDoom's "unlimited" linedefs, paired with DSDA-Doom's overhead efficiency to even get anywhere near a map sizeable and varied enough so you don't end up with giant and rather empty rectangles and triangles...

 

You're moving the goalposts. First it was the monster count, which could be managed by the methods I described, now it's the linedef limit, even though you admit a boring nuts-style map would be feasible. There's no shortage of doom maps that cleverly recycle the same rooms to save space; of course a map with this many monsters would probably be a total grind one way or the other, but making it remotely playable is a creative problem, not a technical one.

 

Unless you insisted on copying Sunder's mapping style I don't see why the map should even approach the limits of complexity, frankly.

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2 hours ago, Krull said:

You're moving the goalposts.

And here's where I'm gonna put my foot down and tell you how no goalpoast has been moved ever, and why you'd do yourself and everybody else a favour if you used your brain to look at more than what you think the most obvious problem is:

 

A map with 1M or monsters, no matter how they're being "spawned", will have lots of active things at once, so thing-count did matter, does still matter, and will always matter...

 

...and the reason thing count matters is because stuff needs to be calculated (meaning GZDoom bad when tens of thousands of things active at once, no matter how spawned)

 

...and fighting needs to take place somewhere (meaning DSDA-Doom bad, because of static linedef limit, nodebuilder-related issues, exceeding the 30k-ish x 30k-ish limits of what's gonna be possible to handle without glitches ingame, maybe even bounding box issues and other, more exotic stuff)...

 

OP wanted something that makes okuplok look small, and okuplok had not just some large ass open boxes like nuts does, it had setpieces, lots of different fights taking place in different areas....

 

again, and I hope this time it clicks, because it frustrates me when people just don't want to get it:

 

-lots of things causes problems for GZDoom for most, if not all players, because overhead too large... meaning: map unplayable

 

-lots of things also causes problems for DSDA-Doom, because no matter you get the monsters into the playable area, you need some playable area, you will need the voodoo conveyors to script everything, you won't want just some nuts upscale that won't run on any machine until 10 - 20 years from now, so you run into issues when you lay down the geometry, either because you run out of lines, or because you exceed what the port's boundaries for geometry on the X/Y-axis are, etc... meaning: map unplayable

 

...and both the problems happen because... guess what...? here it comes... they happen because thing count too fucking huge to make a map like that feasible... monsters require geometry and CPU time like plants need water and sunlight, more monsters means more, and progressively larger geometry will be required and more raw CPU power will be necessary... the port that can accommodate a map like that does not exist right now... it's that damn simple...

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You're just repeating yourself over and over again without actually addressing the points I've made in any substantive way. 

 

40 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

A map with 1M or monsters, no matter how they're being "spawned", will have lots of active things at once, so thing-count did matter, does still matter, and will always matter...

 

 

It shouldn't have more than 10,000 monsters active at once with the method I've described; if their death states all go to frame 0 then they won't even leave corpses....where's the problem? 

 

42 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

...and the reason thing count matters is because stuff needs to be calculated (meaning GZDoom bad when tens of thousands of things active at once, no matter how spawned)

 

 

Why do you keep bringing it back to GZDoom? Everyone knows that port has issues with large slaughtermaps. 

 

43 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

OP wanted something that makes okuplok look small, and okuplok had not just some large ass open boxes like nuts does, it had setpieces, lots of different fights taking place in different areas....

 

 

Yeah, well that's his problem - it's clear the map would have to be more creative with space than this; it couldn't simply be a series of unconnected setpieces, but rather something more along the lines of Mutare, where it loops back on itself cleverly. You seem to be imagining something like NoReason's recent wad only 10+ times larger - obviously that won't work in the Doom engine, but it ought to be clear by now that that's no remotely what I have in mind.

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Okuplok already gets tedious and takes over 2 hours to finish if you want to get everything on UV.

 

A nice large map that is cleverly designed with say 20k enemies would be better.  Having fun will always win out rather than slogging it just to put it on YouTube that 'you did it'.  After all you want a map that you create to be memorable rather than hated and forgotten.

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16 minutes ago, Krull said:

It shouldn't have more than 10,000 monsters active at once with the method I've described; if their death states all go to frame 0 then they won't even leave corpses....where's the problem?

you aren't going to make a map happen that will have 100 fights in different areas up to a tally of 1M in DSDA-Doom, because limits, and you'll run into problems in GZDoom if some of those monsters are gonna be "spammy" with projectiles... do you even have the slightest idea what's gonna be going on when you have somewhere around 2,000 seeking revenant missiles going after the player..? and you're also not going to end up with much of a map if all you ever do is to deliver 10k at any one time either, because where's the big fight that concludes the map...? have you ever even placed 10k things just to see how much real estate that requires in the builder, and how large that required "surface area" is compared that how big a map can be..?

 

20 minutes ago, Krull said:

Why do you keep bringing it back to GZDoom? Everyone knows that port has issues with large slaughtermaps. 

because it's the only port that allows for enough lines no matter the circumstance, which is one of DSDA-Doom's problems when it comes to extremely large maps.. the point is that no port we currently have can do the job...

 

24 minutes ago, Krull said:

Yeah, well that's his problem - it's clear the map would have to be more creative with space than this; it couldn't simply be a series of unconnected setpieces, but rather something more along the lines of Mutare, where it loops back on itself cleverly. You seem to be imagining something like NoReason's recent wad only 10+ times larger - obviously that won't work in the Doom engine, but it ought to be clear by now that that's no remotely what I have in mind.

so... first things first... "his problem" is the topic of this here thread... which is to say can something that puts okuplok to shame be made..? and the answer is plain and simple "no" for reasons given...

 

what is it you're suggesting here...? have the player loop back through the same, large 3-4 areas that can host major fights like 25 times each in a genre where layout and geometry dictates how things will play out most of the time..? just look at the size of mutare and see how many things you could place in that map, and you'll quickly notice how not even that is going to work unless you want some glorified "invasion/horde" knockoff, which would then be missing the point of what the OP was originally asking for...

 

if I wanted to make some map, that somehow could generate a million of something, I'd just use an IOS style monster spawner setup, put the whole thing on a long ass timer to make sure the monster count gets sufficiently inflated, and then I'd call it a day... boom, mission accomplished, 1M monsters map done.. was it what the OP was asking for, though..? hell no, it fucking wasn't...

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Firstly, it looks like your argument has shifted from "impossible in principle" to "unfun in principle". My original post didn't seek to address the latter, and anyway, it's not as if every map should aspire to be fun in the first place - maps like Nostril Caverns or World Orifice are unapologetic grindfests that people play for bragging rights, or just to laugh at the ridiculousness of it. I've tried to suggest subsequently, however, there might be room to make a half-decent map using the methods I've described. 

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

so... first things first... "his problem" is the topic of this here thread... which is to say can something that puts okuplok to shame be made..? and the answer is plain and simple "no" for reasons given...

 

 

Again, I was originally arguing that the 1,000,000 monster map is technically feasible, with the caveat that they must be spawned in in small chunks. I never tried to suggest that "okuplok, only bigger" is the way to go about it, and actually, on rereading the first page it's clear the OP didn't have that in mind either:

 

On 9/10/2021 at 4:38 PM, Captain POLAND said:

Could it be done so that the monsters spawn in in segments, like you clear one room and then the next empty room is suddenly filled with monsters?

 

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

you're also not going to end up with much of a map if all you ever do is to deliver 10k at any one time either, because where's the big fight that concludes the map...?

...

what is it you're suggesting here...? have the player loop back through the same, large 3-4 areas that can host major fights like 25 times each in a genre where layout and geometry dictates how things will play out most of the time..? just look at the size of mutare and see how many things you could place in that map, and you'll quickly notice how not even that is going to work unless you want some glorified "invasion/horde" knockoff, which would then be missing the point of what the OP was originally asking for...

 

I don't know exactly what the OP was asking for, and I doubt he/she knows, so it's futile to assert that my proposal misses the point.

FWIW, I think a map that uses space more efficiently than okuplok or cosmogenesis or whatever could still look epic. As for how it plays, that depends on the mapper's skill and ability to escalate things within the given limitations. Doom gives a lot of scope for transforming scenery, so even recycling the same 3-4 areas could be used creatively. Fights could be built around infighting with absurdly overpowered custom monsters like in Tarakannik, or the player could have a rapid-fire BFG, or they could have way more health, etc...the possibilities are endless.

 

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Let's be honest, OP hasn't posted since the screenshots and probably only wanted to make this map to hold the title of "omg most monsterzzz", without realizing that maps with infinite monsters already exist. Let this be a lesson to mappers, if you're only making your super-crazy-slaughtermap for the social status and not because you actually want to play it, then don't even bother making it. I wouldn't have made nostril.wad if I didn't find it fun to play. Did Okuplok ever play his map?

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10 hours ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

Let's be honest, OP hasn't posted since the screenshots and probably only wanted to make this map to hold the title of "omg most monsterzzz", without realizing that maps with infinite monsters already exist. Let this be a lesson to mappers, if you're only making your super-crazy-slaughtermap for the social status and not because you actually want to play it, then don't even bother making it. I wouldn't have made nostril.wad if I didn't find it fun to play. Did Okuplok ever play his map?

 

No, I want to make an actual map that you can fight through and beat (even if it takes a long time), not just a thing that keeps spawning monsters infinitely.

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How many can beat Okuplok without wasting a weekend?  If it is bigger then that, you'll find a lot of people simply won't play it..

 

I doubt okuplok played his map on anything other than iddqd and idfa 

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49 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

How many can beat Okuplok without wasting a weekend?  If it is bigger then that, you'll find a lot of people simply won't play it..

 

I doubt okuplok played his map on anything other than iddqd and idfa 

 

TL;DW: not a bad map. You could definitely do a lot worse. 

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3 hours ago, Gibbon said:

How many can beat Okuplok without wasting a weekend?  If it is bigger then that, you'll find a lot of people simply won't play it..

 

I doubt okuplok played his map on anything other than iddqd and idfa 

This is nonsense... Even though okuplok is widely regarded as a cheater for several good reasons, the fact that his map has at least some resemblance of "doability" shows that the fights he created have been playtested during development, whether or not he was the only one testing these fights is not relevant to the discussion... He must have played his map at some point, but we've never seen him deliver a demo that beats the whole thing in a single go... and with these allegations of cheating going around and about his demos for other maps, chances are almost nobody would have taken an oku-Max-run of his seriously...

 

the OP also already stated they were looking towards creating something that would take weeks to finish, which, yes, will be a niche in its own right, but with the goal of over a million monsters, or millions of monsters, or anything lofty like that, days or even weeks are at least a somewhat reasonable estimate... Miasma's UVmax time is somewhere around 30-ish minutes for somewhere around 1.3k monsters, if I got the numbers right... Multiply that by something like 800 - 1,000 and it starts to make some sense, although Miasma is far from a "pure slaughtermap"...

 

On 9/19/2021 at 10:40 PM, Captain POLAND said:

No, I want to make an actual map that you can fight through and beat (even if it takes a long time), not just a thing that keeps spawning monsters infinitely.

this right here, paired with what's in the OP and some posts of yours following the responses of others tells me pretty much all I need to know in order to be able to say that you have in mind just can't be done... there are too many technical hurdles to make a map that large feasible, if the idea is to also have somewhat diverse fights that aren't always going to be a rehash of something that's in the map already...

 

krull's idea to make like just a few rooms and transforming them over time to keep things fresh is yet another one of those "looks good on paper" types of ideas that aren't going to be realistically doable (and also not what you seem to be looking for) for something that huge, because just the amount of linedefs required to transform rooms, let alone entire areas, in meaningful ways, regardless of scale, means you will have exhausted the number of linedefs you have to work with long before the map has reached a state that could accommodate 1M monsters over the course of a day-long grind while looping through the "same" few rooms... it just takes too many sectors and lines within the playable area paired with their respective control sectors, conveyors and trigger lines... and that's not even considering the "off-map-setups" you would need if you used some custom spawners, because chances are you won't just want "monster soup", but something that is actually organized in some way, even if only vaguely...

 

building such a map in a format that is compatible with the ports slaughtermaps of huge proportions are usually designed to run on would also open up the floodgates to all sorts of debugging issues when it comes to conveyor scripts... conveyor scripts are way more powerful and reliable than some people give them credit for, but they're not suitable for a task like this, because it's way harder to find the problem in a "multi-layered" conveyor script that malfunctions, than it would be to look over dozens of lines of ACS... but since GZDoom is not a port you'd want to target with a map as gigantic as this, ACS is off-limits... and I'm not at all confident that "eternity engine" could be used as a middle ground port between GZDoom and DSDA-Doom for a project like this... if you've followed the release of skillsaw's heartland, you might have come across a couple folks who have had problems with framerate drops when playing it on slightly older systems, what the cause of these may have been, I don't know, but what I do know is that heartland isn't anywhere near the amount of monsters that you are looking to employ, so EE is not a horse I'd bet on, either...

 

TL;DR... something will come around to bite you in the ass when you try to build something that large... be it the overhead of too many active things, the "weight" of lines and sectors "behind the scenes" to make everything work and allow for a somewhat diverse experience, or other, more "arcane technicalities" like bounding box issues that will keep bugging you until kingdom come...

 

If you want to start somewhere, I'd suggest going for 250,000 monsters, maybe even 300,000, and see what you can make happen with these numbers... it's probably not going to be a map that will take weeks to finish, but it's going to be a map with different areas and it might just be possible to actually put it together, if you're clever about the way you use the limited resources you have to build something like that... if you still have some legroom after 300,000 monsters, then adding another batch of 10,000 to 20,000 to see if it still runs at all won't be much of a problem, and if it turns out that the latest batch you've put down causes problems, then it's easy enough to remove, and you'll still have made "something", even if it's smaller than what you wanted, because it just might be "something" that you think is still worth playing...

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On 9/19/2021 at 9:40 PM, Captain POLAND said:

No, I want to make an actual map that you can fight through and beat (even if it takes a long time), not just a thing that keeps spawning monsters infinitely.

 

Captain... take a deep breath, sit down and listen for a sec. No one here is saying "this cannot be done" but a lot of very experienced mappers are telling you "this is going to be a lot more difficult than you think." Combine that with the very same experienced mappers telling you that a map of this type is not going to be popular, you are looking to pour a massive amount of work into a project that most likely will have at best a meh response. 

 

43 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

this right here, paired with what's in the OP and some posts of yours following the responses of others tells me pretty much all I need to know in order to be able to say that you have in mind just can't be done... there are too many technical hurdles to make a map that large feasible, if the idea is to also have somewhat diverse fights that aren't always going to be a rehash of something that's in the map already...

 

This is the part I really want you to think about. Nine Inch has been making maps for years. Nine Inch as also produced multiple quality maps for years. Nine Inch has... ok I think you get the point. Now listen closely to this next part. Not only does it apply to this situation, but is not bad life advice. 

 

If you ask experts for their advice, you have two chooses. Listen to what they are saying and heed their advice or grab you bat, step up to the plate and give it your best shot. Either your hit a homerun or you'll strike out. Regardless of the out come, you're still going to bust ass to get there.  

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32 minutes ago, Smoothandz said:

Captain... take a deep breath, sit down and listen for a sec. No one here is saying "this cannot be done" but a lot of very experienced mappers are telling you "this is going to be a lot more difficult than you think."

no... I'm actually saying, in the very quote just a few lines below in your very own post, that it can't be done... because the goal of the OP, as I understand it according to the map he wanted to surpass as well as other bits and pieces strewn throughout the first page, is to build more than just a few large rooms to create an oversized horde-mode where shit would just keep spawning back in ad-nauseam...

 

the fact that I am convinced that even an oversized horde-mode can't be done either, at least not if you want anything with a slight hint of variety that doesn't take place in bare bones rectangles and isn't disorganized monster soup, is a merely an aside, because krull kept shoehorning his idea of "well akshually, technically, you could do so and so and not end up with anything close to what you've asked for" into this discussion, because for some unknown reason, he assumed the OP didn't know what they wanted... it's a case of "let's discuss an idea you didn't have instead of what you were actually looking for to begin with"... which is precisely the reason why a large part of this thread is krull and myself going back and forth, over how shit can't be done in order to get a "not-half-bad-map", even when cutting corners...

 

on that note, if you want something to smirk about, look at how I was accused of moving goalposts, while krull just placed their very own wherever the hell they so desired... but I digress...

 

32 minutes ago, Smoothandz said:

Nine Inch has been making maps for years. Nine Inch as also produced multiple quality maps for years. Nine Inch has... ok I think you get the point.

I wasn't gonna comment on this, but I suppose I should, just to clarify a few things.... what is or isn't a "quality map" with regards to the kind of stuff I've been making will vary greatly depending on who you ask... and "quality maps" I've made, that I think are decent, if not good, are not all that common, because I never made many maps in the first place, and a good portion of those few maps I made are intentionally hostile (which many players happen to hate), and sometimes also pretty low-effort, and would only ever appeal to players who are into rather niche gameplay... so I'm not some "mapping behemoth" with fuck knows how many high quality releases under her belt by any stretch of the imagination...

 

if anything, what I have going for myself is that I'm interested in somewhat technical aspects of maps in general, that being "how can something be made to work", even with supposedly limited formats like boom, or even vanilla... I'm not here to argue from a standpoint of "look how many great maps I've made, so how could I possibly be wrong?"... I'm arguing from a "this is the type of stuff you need to keep in mind if you want what you put together to even be playable in any port that exists" kind of position, from where I put the things that a map with a certain functionality and of a certain size requires, into perspective, so that the OP understands why the goal to make a playable and diverse map of that size cannot be accomplished... and I really mean "cannot be accomplished", unless the bar lowers in terms of total monster count and supposed play-time...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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