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The Strife Commando

I'm Glad Doom Eternal Is Hard

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I want challenge and adrenaline. I don't want my hand held, I don't want the game telling me what to do. I'm glad it's fast paced and frantic with beefy weapons that are not your typical real life guns that show up in today's AAA shooters. I'm also glad that story isn't a huge focus. I don't want the game to be so easy and dumbed down. This isn't Call of Duty or Battlefield, this is Doom! This game isn't for chumps. Thank you id Software for giving us this gem. May your game go unnoticed.

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21 minutes ago, Teo Slayer said:

Heh, better than any modern FPS game I would say

 

"Ramirez! sit behind that dumpster for 4 minutes so your health can go back to full!"

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12 hours ago, Skootroot said:

 

"Ramirez! sit behind that dumpster for 4 minutes so your health can go back to full!"

 

lol It's not actually that bad, but still funny line

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Honestly Doom Eternal isn't really that hard on anything below Nightmare. Once you get used to the combat loop, I'd say trying to pistol start even a vanilla Doom II level or an Doom 1 E4 level on UV is probably a good deal harder than Eternal's hardest Slayer Gate levels on UV. At least in the base game, I can't comment on DLC as I've yet to play that.

 

But I don't think it's fair to say it isn't at least a little bit hand-holdy. They pretty much tell you what each enemy's weakness is rather than letting you figure it out for yourself (which isn't that hard anyway). Of course you can turn it off, but they felt the need to include that anyway for those who unwilling to figure it out themselves--which is hand-holdy. Secrets again are not very challenging to find, and they give you a suit upgrade that automatically tells you  where everything is on your automap. I don't unlock that upgrade purposely because it's like spoiling the secret locations as if you look it up in a walkthrough. And keycard hunts look non-linear but are actually very much linear, guided tours where there's always a magic green light in the environment telling you where to go, and that's still there even if you turn off the objective markers and compass.

 

So no, I think it does "hold your hand" to the extent that it is a modern, big budget affair catering to a wide demographic and including these features as safety precautions to not scare off those not good enough to navigate levels on their own. 

 

Heck even the Marauder apparently was not easy enough for people so they included a really annoying flying birdy/stars graphic over his head to let the player know when he's attackable.

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7 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

Honestly Doom Eternal isn't really that hard on anything below Nightmare. Once you get used to the combat loop, I'd say trying to pistol start even a vanilla Doom II level or an Doom 1 E4 level on UV is probably a good deal harder than Eternal's hardest Slayer Gate levels on UV. At least in the base game, I can't comment on DLC as I've yet to play that.

 

But I don't think it's fair to say it isn't at least a little bit hand-holdy. They pretty much tell you what each enemy's weakness is rather than letting you figure it out for yourself (which isn't that hard anyway). Of course you can turn it off, but they felt the need to include that anyway for those who unwilling to figure it out themselves--which is hand-holdy. Secrets again are not very challenging to find, and they give you a suit upgrade that automatically tells you  where everything is on your automap. I don't unlock that upgrade purposely because it's like spoiling the secret locations as if you look it up in a walkthrough. And keycard hunts look non-linear but are actually very much linear, guided tours where there's always a magic green light in the environment telling you where to go, and that's still there even if you turn off the objective markers and compass.

 

So no, I think it does "hold your hand" to the extent that it is a modern, big budget affair catering to a wide demographic and including these features as safety precautions to not scare off those not good enough to navigate levels on their own. 

 

Heck even the Marauder apparently was not easy enough for people so they included a really annoying flying birdy/stars graphic over his head to let the player know when he's attackable.

I'm guessing those were included for people like JackFrags who can't handle greatness and return to their scrubby shooter.

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Doom Eternal is not a difficult game imo. It just has a learning curve to it. After you get used to the weapons & tools, it becomes a lot easier. I'm not that skilled at most games and still managed to defeat the game on nightmare difficulty. The people that complain the game is too difficult don't try to learn the game's mechanics.

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I play on PS4, controller makes it a tad bit harder i imagine, i never played it on PC, but everyone says that keyboard is easier.

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Tough guys here, look out.

 

The game is challenging and difficult, but it's so well designed that all the mechanics blend together and makes it reasonable.

 

But I'd argue the pacing for first time players wasn't great, both mechanically and story which contributes to the difficulty. At least they patched in the ability to ice bomb the first Doom Hunter encounters. The Maraurder's stun effect is good for first time players too but should remove the tutorial pop-up (but make it an optional read in menu).

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9 hours ago, RookieSlayer said:

Doom Eternal is not a difficult game imo. It just has a learning curve to it. After you get used to the weapons & tools, it becomes a lot easier. I'm not that skilled at most games and still managed to defeat the game on nightmare difficulty. The people that complain the game is too difficult don't try to learn the game's mechanics.

Yeah, it's not like the base DOOM Eternal doesn't have its challenges, but aside from the DLC or Master Levels the game is hardly Dark Souls or something. People aren't exactly used to chainsawing enemies to get ammo, for instance.

 

Still, this game is insanely fun and in-depth and has a lot more going on with it than just spamming M1 like most shooters (especially modern ones). I hope id Software doesn't dumb-down their future games because of a vocal minority who refuse to do anything than just use the Super Shotgun all day.

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From what we've seen from how id Handled Doom Eternal, they just kinda do what they like and stick with it instead of trying to cater to everyone.

 

People complained about Marauders... id Adds 2-4 more of them. People cry about Doom being Cartoony... id adds more silly elements.

They seem to be very confident and secure about their product and just do their own thing. the only thing that's gonna hinder them is either Microsoft or Bugthesda since they are as Corporate as they get.

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The Dark Souls stuff is always weird to be since Souls fans weren't even memeing it being hard, that was mostly journos.

I think "git gud" was less "trying to sell it as hard" and more "it's not that hard".

Plus the setting and tone of that game, which means Doom Eternal was considered hard because of the "actually it's the demons that are stuck with you lol" imagery.

Otherwise, if there was no "Slayer" character and Doomguy actually had that "broken/stuggling" imagery carried from the originals that would also make him more comparable to Guts, then nobody would complain about the difficulty as much because "oh yeah, i'm a badass but still a DOOMED badass".

 

Because a title like God Hand actually flopped and had one infamous review that served as an ultimate example of game reviewers being bad at their job.

While Eternal is still an AAA game with its own ideas on how to help players, like the tutorial videos and the HUD designs.

But a reality is that you probably don't want to sell your game as "hardcore only, casuals stay out" because if anything, that only makes it even more niche.

Is it that some games are actually casual filters or it's just some fans that make it seem that way?

Maybe in occasions like Space Station 13 but it's better to sell a game's depth with a "you can do it" message than the other way around.

Acknowledge limts so you can overcome them, not to think you're stuck in the road.

Otherwise, a fanbase gets smaller and some values aren't even learned outside, even if you're worried of outsiders potentially ruining stuff, but that's why you gotta make sure they get dedicated and don't cause drama or something.

 

The actual issue with Marauders and later on, the Dark Lord, is that they're not really "Vergil" types of characters which sort of puts an end to the "it's like a character action game" comparisons.

Like, an ideal description i once heard of rival characters is "they have enough attacks and abilities to feel like playable characters, sometimes making you WISH you were playing as that guy instead", which also works when they have their own playable campaigns, as opposed to BattleMode turning the Marauder in another demonic class. (but if he had more to his BM arsenal, it would make his campaign-monster version dishonest)

Specially if you wanted to contrast/parallel Doomguy's diverse arsenal and abilities.

Another thing about rival characters is when they're presented as "cooler than you", hence cutscenes of them beating up your character or doing something cool, which may not be that possible with the Slayer because to most fans, it would ruin his "brand".

 

Also, a problem with "THEY MADE DOOM CARTOONY" is moreso it wasn't the right type of cartoonyness, because for a series where the original devs didn't care much of its setting, not a lot of people bother to examine the difference between the "goofy latex models out of a B-Movie" and "very detail designs with chittin anatomy meant to suit descriptive lore".

The comments of "this looks like WoW/Darksiders" may seen overdone but i've seen people say "Doom is now like Shin Megami Tensei and Bayonetta" which if anything, only examplifies the differences between West and East even more.

I feel like the view on Doom's setting shouldn't even be "ignore the story, doesn't matter" but more "it's weird presented but at least you can interpret it in different ways", so i don't even think you need that "story in a porno" comment by Carmack when how the games/manuals presented it should be enough.

People treating "Doom's story doesn't matter" like a mandatory rule when modders and fan artists might as well been creating/examinating a Doomverse for years.

Doom is silly, but also cool.

In a way, you cold also look at the lore and art direction and feel some "restrictions" from the side effect of "expansion", so you could assume they're not taking advantage of a "potential magic" that some Realm667 asset mod/mapset did.

Like, "Doomguy fights literal Hell" but then you compare it to some JRPG and start to think that, for a heavy metal series of an angry guy murdering demons with a chainsaw, Doom needs a bit more more abstraction and weird.

Otherwise, it could have been "more epic".

Or it could also be people thinking that some textures and art stuff is iconic enough to Doom, even if it means FIREBLU, so there's a lot more to make Doom stand out. (then again, same for coloring the Praetor helmet white or grey lol)

 

Then again, Doom also has a history of being misrepresented.

With OG Doom, it's people bringing up debunked rumors like "Doom is keyboard only" and associating stuff with mods or source ports.

Modern Doom is statements like "Doomguy is the most tragic character" that are just fan bias or someone not consuming a lot of other media.

I also think Doom being "one of the good Western games these days" is why there's these comparisons to Japanese games, because if these people looked more into Western games, they could see why someone said that some designs have that "Joe Mad" feel to it.

 

2016 sort of planted the seed for what Eternal has and if you look at either the licensed comic or the early 2010's Chuck Norris jokes with a Doom skin and jealousy over Master Chief, you can see some of the ingredients used to create the Slayer.

A Doom game making Doom more OP is kinda similar to Looney Tunes acknowleding Big Chungus.

 

I heard Carmack and Romero didn't mind that MS owns Doom now, so we hope someone there lets Romero release the unused assets he has left to share.

Still glad Doomkid brought attention to that.

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I really liked Doom Eternal when I first played it, It was alright.  But looking back the game has issues that will put an expiration date on it's combat loop.  I did the same thing in every fight on UV and it wasn't that hard at all.  Chainsaw low level enemies that I am not even certain can hurt you, spam rockets and shells at the bigger enemies until they die, and occasionally fight a Marauder or 2.  Once you figure out the pattern they aren't any trouble at all.  Classic doom by comparison has a near infinite lifespan, even excluding how easy it is to make gameplay mods compared to other games and just counting mapsets, the game's longevity is immeasurable.  Eternal doesn't even have snapmap, let alone a modding scene that can create some of the most creative levels of all time.

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On 9/14/2021 at 11:25 AM, The Strife Commando said:

I'm guessing those were included for people like JackFrags who can't handle greatness and return to their scrubby shooter.

Can we not do this? Can we accept that people like different shooters for different reasons? Like just because COD and Battlefield are not like Doom doesn't make them bad games, and you sound like a jackass when you mock people who enjoy those games

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1 hour ago, CasualScrub said:

Like just because COD and Battlefield are not like Doom doesn't make them bad games

I hate both anyway, lmao

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On 9/15/2021 at 10:17 PM, sefus said:

I play on PS4, controller makes it a tad bit harder i imagine, i never played it on PC, but everyone says that keyboard is easier.

It is, I promise.

 

I've beaten it on UV with keyboard and mouse a few times now, it was pretty hard with a mouse so I can't imagine what using a controller is like. But it definitely gives adrenaline and is super satisfying. 

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7 hours ago, CasualScrub said:

Can we not do this? Can we accept that people like different shooters for different reasons? Like just because COD and Battlefield are not like Doom doesn't make them bad games, and you sound like a jackass when you mock people who enjoy those games

I apologise for that.

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On 9/14/2021 at 10:29 AM, QuaketallicA said:

Honestly Doom Eternal isn't really that hard on anything below Nightmare. Once you get used to the combat loop, I'd say trying to pistol start even a vanilla Doom II level or an Doom 1 E4 level on UV is probably a good deal harder than Eternal's hardest Slayer Gate levels on UV. At least in the base game, I can't comment on DLC as I've yet to play that.

 

But I don't think it's fair to say it isn't at least a little bit hand-holdy. They pretty much tell you what each enemy's weakness is rather than letting you figure it out for yourself (which isn't that hard anyway). Of course you can turn it off, but they felt the need to include that anyway for those who unwilling to figure it out themselves--which is hand-holdy. Secrets again are not very challenging to find, and they give you a suit upgrade that automatically tells you  where everything is on your automap. I don't unlock that upgrade purposely because it's like spoiling the secret locations as if you look it up in a walkthrough. And keycard hunts look non-linear but are actually very much linear, guided tours where there's always a magic green light in the environment telling you where to go, and that's still there even if you turn off the objective markers and compass.

 

So no, I think it does "hold your hand" to the extent that it is a modern, big budget affair catering to a wide demographic and including these features as safety precautions to not scare off those not good enough to navigate levels on their own. 

 

Heck even the Marauder apparently was not easy enough for people so they included a really annoying flying birdy/stars graphic over his head to let the player know when he's attackable.

 

Yeah, i also would say that the DLCs got more into the annoying Part than a challanging one.

 

Love the Maingame, but i brutally dislike the DLCs for being a lame annoying Thing.

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16 hours ago, CasualScrub said:

Can we not do this? Can we accept that people like different shooters for different reasons? Like just because COD and Battlefield are not like Doom doesn't make them bad games, and you sound like a jackass when you mock people who enjoy those games

 

Finally someone said this. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I can enjoy both retro shooters and military shooters.

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I wonder if anyone ever thought of the "hardcore" aspect in Eternal and its fans being part of marketing or just something that elevates the game a bit too much.

Like how a lot of games always used that in advertisement or when companies force competitive scenes, even though those come naturally.

Which can come off as something seemingly niche being used to sell something, even if more casual audiences prefer comfort.

Because i always thought what seperates the old and new Doom fans is that shift in nerd culture, if you know what i mean.

This sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory.

 

I think the funny thing about game journos is that Eternal is one of the games least affected by them, specially with how universally loved Doom is when even someone like CrowbCat makes a positive video of it.

Like an inverse to when Sonic was forced as "the most hated gaming franchise".

Plus, a title like God Hand is niche and flopped, so people associate its misfortune with that one IGN review.

Eternal is the most successfull Doom game commercially, so it can't be harmed by game journos.

Although with that in mind, if Youtubers are going to replace them, you'd hope they would try and avoid their mistakes and flaws. (and then a similar cycle can happen with a new group, like uh... Twitter "hot takes" accounts?)

 

Also, with how popular Doom is, a lot of the "git gud" stuff feels like it's coming from former casual gamers, that may or may not be compensating for playing COD once.

Funny thing about military shooters is that COD and BF aren't as tactical as some other games and then there's Hideous Destructor of all things.

 

Oh, another thing i should mention on how Doom could make a true rival character: taunts and lines.

The Marauder or potential anti-Doomguy could have been insulting and mocking Doomguy during fights.

"Soon you'll join Daisy" is a basic one for example.

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On 9/16/2021 at 6:01 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

From what we've seen from how id Handled Doom Eternal, they just kinda do what they like and stick with it instead of trying to cater to everyone.

 

People complained about Marauders... id Adds 2-4 more of them. People cry about Doom being Cartoony... id adds more silly elements.

They seem to be very confident and secure about their product and just do their own thing. the only thing that's gonna hinder them is either Microsoft or Bugthesda since they are as Corporate as they get.

 

This is what I mean though, this perception is completely false. I'm not trying to show off, "Oh this is so easy for me," because I'm not even that great at the game. I'm not one of those Ultra-Nightmare speedrunners or something, just an average Doom fan. I mean these mechanics really are things that simplify the experience as to not scare off the majority of buyers. What's that, you can't take 2 minutes to figure out a strategy that will work against the Marauder? Here let me just tell you exactly what to do in the loading screen and give you massive indicators telling you when the already obvious hit window is. It's just patronizing, but it's there because they wanted to appease the crowd who went, "Marauder's too hard!" and gave up before they tried getting better. Rather than giving him silly stars over his head what they should have done was tweak the Marauder so most players are actually capable of killing him with something other than a SSG/Ballista combo. Maybe you can get a remote detonate rocket to deal minimal damage on him, or BFG him while he's stunned if you're lucky, but that's it.

 

For example, I remember hearing Hugo Martin say in an interview that for one of the master levels' or one of the dlc levels' slayer gates (or possibly both) they decided to go balls to the walls and really punish the player with some grueling encounters, thinking, "Why not? It's optional anyway and it's in the expansion, which is supposed to be hard." After reviews bombed they had to completely rework that because they had found their line that they could not cross. So no, they absolutely care about keeping public opinion and having mainstream audience. They just try to give off that "I'm so cool I don't care about following the rules" vibe because it sells, but they really do care about following the rules and making it palatable to mainstream audiences.

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17 hours ago, whatup876 said:

I wonder if anyone ever thought of the "hardcore" aspect in Eternal and its fans being part of marketing or just something that elevates the game a bit too much.

Like how a lot of games always used that in advertisement or when companies force competitive scenes, even though those come naturally.

Which can come off as something seemingly niche being used to sell something, even if more casual audiences prefer comfort.

Because i always thought what seperates the old and new Doom fans is that shift in nerd culture, if you know what i mean.

This sounds like a stupid conspiracy theory.

 

I think the funny thing about game journos is that Eternal is one of the games least affected by them, specially with how universally loved Doom is when even someone like CrowbCat makes a positive video of it.

Like an inverse to when Sonic was forced as "the most hated gaming franchise".

Plus, a title like God Hand is niche and flopped, so people associate its misfortune with that one IGN review.

Eternal is the most successfull Doom game commercially, so it can't be harmed by game journos.

Although with that in mind, if Youtubers are going to replace them, you'd hope they would try and avoid their mistakes and flaws. (and then a similar cycle can happen with a new group, like uh... Twitter "hot takes" accounts?)

 

Also, with how popular Doom is, a lot of the "git gud" stuff feels like it's coming from former casual gamers, that may or may not be compensating for playing COD once.

Funny thing about military shooters is that COD and BF aren't as tactical as some other games and then there's Hideous Destructor of all things.

 

Oh, another thing i should mention on how Doom could make a true rival character: taunts and lines.

The Marauder or potential anti-Doomguy could have been insulting and mocking Doomguy during fights.

"Soon you'll join Daisy" is a basic one for example.

 

^ This, exactly this!

 

It's the casual, mainstream shooter crowd who think nuDooms are some kind of hardcore experience where only the strong survive, when in reality it's a power fantasy (albeit a challenging and earned one) custom tailored to make you feel that way. They're actually very mainstream games with a lot of training wheels attached and even a casual FPS fan or gamer can enjoy it on lower difficulties. It only tries to appear hardcore and edgy, or at least a lot of people seem to believe it is.

 

By contrast, try winning in a Quake Deathmatch setting like Quake Live or Quake II (which is still played today :) ) I consider myself lucky if I actually manage to get 5-6 kills in the entire match (It ends when someone gets 30 kills). That takes a ton of time and skill to get good at.

 

Also Battlefield "tactical"? lol I think there was one time Battlefield was tactical when I was with 1 other player on my team in a 2v2 match on a Bad Company 2 Vietnam server. But hey, if it were tactical, it wouldn't be fun for most people (myself included). That's why I refunded Rising Storm 2 but have 4 Battlefield games.

Edited by QuaketallicA

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On 9/22/2021 at 10:00 AM, CasualScrub said:

Can we not do this? Can we accept that people like different shooters for different reasons? Like just because COD and Battlefield are not like Doom doesn't make them bad games, and you sound like a jackass when you mock people who enjoy those games

 

You know I was on the CoD hate bandwagon for years. I eventually tried just about every major FPS series EXCEPT CoD and Halo, so I had to eventually give 'em a try. Turns out if a lot of people like something, there's usually a good reason for it. Thankfully, tastes can change, and you get more open-minded as you get older. And if you don't like the series, fine, you don't have to, but they are very good at what they do, and it's more than just the obnoxious marketing hype and brand name that sells copies. They just make different flavors of shooter than Doom.

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3 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

They just try to give off that "I'm so cool I don't care about following the rules" vibe because it sells, but they really do care about following the rules and making it palatable to mainstream audiences.

If anything it just proves that a game can be somewhat difficult and and feel unique with out needing to ditch Modern Game Mechanics.  Though my opinion still stands. Id is really doing their own thing with mechanics everyone is familiar with, There really isn't any shooter that has come out that feels and plays like Doom Eternal.

 

But anyway, I know i can't convince you off anything so I'll just leave it with that. Doom Eternal "dumb down and edgy" in your opinion *shrug*

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While I'm not a huge fan of Eternal due to the fact that I don't like its overall setting and atmosphere, which is the most important aspect of a DOOM game to me, I think id did a pretty good job with the difficulty. It's not an extremely hard game, but it is challenging enough and usually fair.

 

I think the "hardcore/OTT" gore and music also add to the overall intensity, which can sometimes give the impression that the game itself is more difficult due to adrenaline and energy.

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9 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

There really isn't any shooter that has come out that feels and plays like Doom Eternal.

 

I 100% agree with that. Well Doom '16 is very similar, but the subtle changes they made add up to a huge difference in the experience.

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