Dread Factory (First time OTEX!)

[Sectorslayer]

As part of my mapping experiments I asked around what kind of map should I build next. More Ultimate Doom for "Knee Deep Again" or another Doom2 map? So here is my second Doom2 and first OTEX map! Download the map here: sectrslayr_ex2b.wad.zip

 

You also need OTEX 1.1, Download the texture pack here: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/graphics/otex_1_1

 

The map is provided in Doom2 map format and designed with SLADE using the Doom2 IWAD and OTEX1.1. I tried to stay vanilla. But I suggest playing on GZDoom or other limit removing and visuals enhancing ports. It's tested on PrBoom+ and GZDoom.

 

People found the first revision hard and unfair. I hope this revision is just hard.

 

Credits:

• Ola Björling (ukiro) for OTEX
• Santtu "MFG38" Pesonen https://mfg38.bandcamp.com/ for "Dread Factory" MIDI

 

Happy playtesting / suffering!

 

CC:

• @Biodegradable @Clippy @LordEntr0py @DevilMyEyes @mxbobbie49

Edited October 4, 2021 by sectrslayr : Silently releasing this

[Murdoch]

Sorry man, but I did not enjoy this at all.

 

First, the good. No faulting your construction skills. Well made, good layout and up till about just before the midway point the fights were generally well conceived though I was having to micromanage ammo more than I would have liked. I will ask of you what I ask of every map author - do not create challenge via resource deprivation. That is incredibly difficult to get right. Authors are the worst judge of how resources should be distributed in a map because they know what's coming. Let the player make mistakes and miss some shots. Always add more ammo and health than you think you need. Create challenge with layout and creative enemy placement. It's a shooting game, not a resource management game. Let me shoot.

 

I was still basically enjoying it though but then I hit a point where I entered an area where I was on a raised walkway with another area below me with a switch. See screenshot attached. I picked up the ammo and medkit ahead of me on the raised area. Suddenly all hell (pardon the pun) breaks loose. You went from 40mph to 120mph in a split second. I have a Hell Knight and Arachnatron in front of me, five or six Revenants released suddenly on my right. I drop down to seek cover, and suddenly there's a fucking Archvile on the loose too! I can't get past him, there's no way out of where I am, I have a chaingun, the shotgun, and next to no ammo. No way. It's not happening. I reloaded with the idea of backtracking but you cut off the retreat. Even if I could I would have run out of ammo trying to finish the Revenants following me. I reloaded again trying to find a pathway through to some more resources or a spot I could conceivably make a stand but just hit more resistance that was well beyond what I had the resources for even if I did not already have a horde behind me.

 

An ambush like this belongs at the end of the map when the player has some decent hardware and room to move. Not barely passed the midway point when all you have given the player is the chaingun, shotgun, and very little ammo. Taking on massive hordes with such paltry hardware just isn't fun for me. I could keep reloading and trying and trying to make the resources you have given me work but that's just plain tedious. I have better things to do than rehearse maps ad infinitum. And I was on Hurt Me Plenty too.

 

It's a shame because I really liked how the level was looking. My suggestions, which of course you can take or leave.

 

1. Increase the ammo by at minimum 10% in the first area. Maybe even 20%.

2. Increase the health slightly too.

3. Introduce a better weapon before the aforementioned ambush. I could see the super shotgun but could not figure out how to get to it.

4. Tone down that ambush. Lose the Archvile at least on Hurt Me Plenty for us plebs, maybe leave it on UV for the dedicated masochists. Lose a couple of the Revenants. Everything else is probable doable if the player has the SSG and some more bullets.

 

I am sorry, I really hate being so negative. You clearly know what you are doing construction wise. Just try to consider less skilled players who don't already know what's coming. If you want ultra hard, use the difficulty settings accordingly and then everyone of all skills can enjoy your work.

[Biodegradable]

Okay, so I found I had time to squeeze this in tonight and OH MY FUCKING GOD dude. I wholeheartedly agree with everything Murdoch said. This needs some serious re-evaluation when it comes to balancing. If you're planning on throwing THAT much at the player, at least give them a fighting chance. Sorry fam, but I had to throw in the towel. I couldn't get past the first part where the shit really hits the fan with dozens of Revs, Mancs, Hellknights, Brainiacs and even a fucking Archvile with nothing to fight back with.

 

The map looks great, but this is not in a playable state as far as I'm concerned. Please rethink your approach to the combat and give me some goddamn ammo!

Edited September 22, 2021 by Biodegradable

[Murdoch]

4 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

Post space reserved for later. Looking forward to playing!

 

Beat you to a playtesting for once.  I fully expect it will never happen ever again.

 

[Sectorslayer]

Sorry @Murdoch, but thank you for the honest feedback. I actually forgot to mention that I've only implemented UV so far. Will fix that in the description ASAP.

16 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

Create challenge with layout and creative enemy placement. It's a shooting game, not a resource management game. Let me shoot. 

Resource deprivation is not a good idea, I agree. I wanted to try it anyway and will change it for lower difficulty levels later. Your certainly right about the extra ammo. Authors a bad judges.

19 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

1. Increase the ammo by at minimum 10% in the first area. Maybe even 20%.

2. Increase the health slightly too.

3. Introduce a better weapon before the aforementioned ambush. I could see the super shotgun but could not figure out how to get to it.

4. Tone down that ambush. Lose the Archvile at least on Hurt Me Plenty for us plebs, maybe leave it on UV for the dedicated masochists. Lose a couple of the Revenants. Everything else is probable doable if the player has the SSG and some more bullets.

Will do all of the above. About #3: The SSG is there (so is a medkit). I will see how the way to get it can be made more obvious.

 

Thanks again! And I hope you want to give it another try after I did all those fixes (there are probably more to come)...

[Murdoch]

1 minute ago, sectrslayr said:

Thanks again! And I hope you want to give it another try after I did all those fixes (there are probably more to come)...

 

Definitely will. You are onto something here; your use of the OTEX pack and general construction skills are very good.

[uber]

pretty cool stuff! first off, gotta echo what murdoch and biodegradable are saying overall: awesome visuals, but gameplay feels a bit on the cruel side.

however, i'd say that only really applies to the beginning, which feels way, way tougher than the rest of the map, at least until you figure out a proper route. after a couple of restarts and just messing around to learn the layout and item placement i was able to just run past everyone all the way to the ssg and then the map becomes much easier overall, especially if you also pick up the berserk to heal up before "the fight". not just because of the extra firepower, though: traps in general seem much more tame past that point, and ammo and health seem plentiful too, or maybe i was just lucky and didn't get hit as often. in fact, i was hovering around 50%+ bullets and shells / 100% health most of the time, which isn't really item starvation i'd say! even the final teleport gauntlet with the twin archviles and friends wasn't super difficult even when i was missing the rocket launcher (my dumb ass ran around the crates without finding the switch to lower it) and (i assume secret?) plasma gun, but it still made for a very fun encounter.

extra info: i played it uv saveless on gzdoom w/ boom strict compatibility settings, as it crashes on dsda-doom for some reason. might be worth looking into as the map doesn't seem to use any specific port features from what i've seen:


edit: oh my god, i actually didn't see the plasma gun during the final fight. well, i guess that's a self-imposed challenge then :p

Edited September 22, 2021 by uber

[Hitboi]

56 minutes ago, uber said:

as it crashes on dsda-doom for some reason.

I think the mapper should've either saved the map again or switched to a better nodes builder.



I will give this a 5.5/10, 3 points for the architecture, 2 points for the action, and a half point for the secrets, I don't want to be and don't like being harsh, I couldn't complete it because some mancubus killed me in the area with 2 archviles.
Played this on UV then on ITYTD because of the double ammo system, the layout is quite nice, and the map looks good, but the green area looks quite ugly with these yellow lights, but the OTEX textures hide it's uglyness.
And also, make fights predictable, you're a mapper, but you expect the fights you created, so you expect the player to beat them with no pain or stress.. maybe the title wasn't lying, the factory probably makes dread.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Hitboi

[Morpheus666]

So, after playing it...i can safely say that UV is totally unbalanced. I actually played through it twice, Once on UV and once on HMP. I'd recommend if you would like to play this level to play on HMP.

 

there's lots of good use of the textures, and I really like the architecture and lighting. The navigation was really well laid out and i loved how parts looped back into itself and revealed more to the map! Difficulty wise it's tough, UV especially, HMP is (Easier?) and doesn't starve you of resources nearly as much!

 

Overall this is shaping up to be a well designed map, however i do agree with Murdoch and Bio as far as difficulty concerns.

 

I also would like to add a minor little critique when it comes to Enemy placement, some sections of the maps pack you in like a sardine can and probably would benefit from either expanding the hallways or lowering the enemy count. 

 

Regardless

I'd give it a solid 7/10

Edited September 22, 2021 by Morpheus666

[galileo31dos01]

Hello, I played your map in zdoom, because crispy crashes upon starting the game.

 

Things I enjoyed:

 

- The non-linear feel even if ultimately searching for the exit is straightforward. What I liked was the multiple options to enter different areas, sneaking around to find ammo caches or monsters and shoot them on the booty. It also seemed to favor their pathing in general, giving the feel they know the building they theoretically constructed. I also appreciated the switches for the doors than can't be manually opened from one side until you had conquered the sections, bonus points for that.

 

- That same optionality might clash for some people, when missing one particular nook can affect the rest. I actually didn't mind seeing the SSG not in the middle of the way, or the only RL in a fairly easy secret, that stuff seemed coherent in the map's context. Explore and observe = be rewarded. Of course missing either weapon puts a burden on the pace, though it's not like they're cryptically hidden in first place. Perhaps an additional SSG much later, and a second RL in the final room, might diminish that possible impact without disrupting your balance, maybe on lower skills if there're plans on adding them. Up to you.

 

- The middle stretch in terms of combat, specially that tight ledge with revs and HKs, including the trash and archvile below, was the first instance of sweet pressure. You can ultimately jump down, open the door and fight from safety, or carefully kill the tall things on the ledge, that's the magic from ✨options✨. I also liked how the final fight gives you two ways, but you can't pick both (first time, picked invul, and the wondered where the PR was, heh). Most of the incidental combat in between was fine too, nothing particularly tough imo, unless you get really bad hitscan "damage lottery" (using rd's terminology).

 

- Visually nice and metallic, otex gives a rusty sort of appeal even when the base is brand new, if that makes sense.

 

Things I was indifferent:

 

- Not being deprived from resources, despite the warning. From reading comments, I entered the map expecting to SG an archvile in the open or suffer from armor austerity while dozens of elite zombiemen hit me twice a second, but I was actually always in good shape ammo-weapon wise, while health/armor count seemed very friendly for a blind first time (thanks partially to early pacifist sergeants). I'm curious now how earlier releases played like, because this could still be a solid HMP imo...

 

- Unreachable rocky areas had cliff imps that didn't add much, if nothing but to hamper the pace honestly speaking. Nothing aggravating tbh.

 

- While I liked the idea for the final section, the free invul was a bit too forgiving for just two archviles and company, so that could be a soulsphere on UV imo. Those teleporting monsters took a long time to spawn in, and appearing in one single spot made the fight too easy to control. There're ways to work out multiple spawning points in a big lowering sector in the mapping format you chose, but the priority imo is getting those pinkies and revenants come in faster. If you don't mind an extra suggestion, a PE coming from above :D

 

Things that aren't appreciated: 

 

- Dictating the mapper how they must make their maps.... what?

 

So overall, I'd say nice map! thanks for sharing.

[Degree23]

6 hours ago, Murdoch said:

It's a shooting game, not a resource management game. Let me shoot.

 

It's his map, not your map. Let him map?

 

Did you alter the map between your first post and the subsequent comments? Based on what I read I was expecting to Alt + F4 after a couple of minutes on UV, but the only super annoying thing was that I ran out of ammo at the final fight due to missing that there was a PG there. That and the (too) long spawn timer before the AVs appeared. The rest of the map was mostly ok. I did pick up the RL secret though, so I suppose it's up for debate whether almost forcing the player to find a secret to stand a good chance is a good idea or not. It is completely out in the open however, so you know you should be looking for something in that area. I was also able to kill AVs before they went on an enormous resurrecting spree, though that could also get out of hand.

 

Overall, not as hard as I was expecting from the comments, but far from a walk in the park.

[Sectorslayer]

6 minutes ago, Degree23 said:

Did you alter the map between your first post and the subsequent comments?

Thank you! No I didn’t change the map yet. Still collecting the precious playtester feedback. 👍

 

But I think I went to far here and there. In fact I thought it’s to hard when building it. Until I found a way to beat it myself. 😉

[Degree23]

Ah ok. Well in that case I don't think it's too bad overall, though I have played (and died to) a heck of a lot of slaughter maps. Any time you have AVs on the loose, particularly in a winding map like this, there is the potential for things to go awry very quickly as you can't get much open ground to blast them with the RL/PG. I was able to kill them fairly quickly on my playthrough, but it's a little bit up to luck and it sounds like it others had less fortunate RNG, which if ammo is already quite tight, makes the situation even worse. A Backpack at around a quarter of the way through the map, with maybe 20 Shells, may help alleviate some of the ammo concerns.

[Sectorslayer]

7 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Please rethink your approach to the combat and give me some goddamn ammo!

This might be appropriate 😏

Thanks for trying it out. 👍

[Sectorslayer]

5 hours ago, Hitboi said:

And also, make fights predictable, you're a mapper, but you expect the fights you created, so you expect the player to beat them with no pain or stress.. maybe the title wasn't lying, the factory probably makes dread.

Thanks for playing and for the points. 😉

 

Predictability, especially on ambush, is a hard to achieve. But I agree that it makes no fun to choose the hard path when there is just not enough equipment to win an even predictable fight. 😅

[galileo31dos01]

Here's a demo for you, in zdoom 2.8.1. It mostly showcases what Degree and I mentioned about slow teleportations.

 

ex2_UVbygal.zip 

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, Degree23 said:

It's his map, not your map. Let him map

 

What are you on about? The guy asked for feedback. I gave it to him. Of course that's going to be based on my personal preferences. I literally said at the bottom he's free to take my advice or not, perhaps using the difficulty settings better so UV can be super hard but lesser skills can better accommodate less skilled players like me. Surely an author wants his map to be enjoyed by as many as possible? He's obviously taken that in the good faith it was intended. There is no need to spoil this otherwise constructive discussion with snarky comments like that.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Murdoch

[Murdoch]

4 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

Dictating the mapper how they must make their maps.... what?

 

Nobody here is dictating. He asked for feedback. He got it. He's free to do with that as he pleases. 

[thiccyosh]

I'll just toss my hat into the ring.

 

And just so you know: this is a review mixed with the playtesting, have fun reading!

 

I played this in GZDoom on UV with saves, dsda didn't work due to what I think is Zdoom shenanigans I know nothing about.

 

Oh boy, lets start with the positive feedback.

 

-I like the texture pack you used

 

-I like the level design, (mostly, we'll come to that bit) feels very modern with a fitting midi in the back.

 

The negative:

I cannot put this into points so here's one big ol' text.

 

This level strangles you from the first until the last second you play it. By that I mean you have a hot start in a crammed area with a shotgunner putting extra lead in your body while a Spectre eats your hands, and health is very stingy or hidden in secrets I would've never found out about until I looked it up by idclipping everywhere. A hot start is fine, if you give the player enough time to think and digest to what he's seeing. If you're using high-tier enemies at least give the player enough health to eat one mid dmg Baron fireball (32 damage) , not to mention there are Chaingunners everywhere. My god the Chaingunners and Shotgunners here are gruesome. And the level doesn't make it better sometimes.

 

Good start, two minutes in and we are already below 50% health, do you get armor? Yes! One singular green armor with an one days worth of armor bonuses (20 to be exact) and one secret Megaarmor I could not find for the life of me. What about weapons? A ton of shotguns the Shotgunners left you behind, a chaingun (You will need that.) and a Supersshotgun you can easily miss if you're a smoothbrain man like me, meaning you'll have fun shotgunning Arch-viles, Mancubi, Revenants and Hell Knights! What fun. Oh! And the Rocket Launcher is a secret because you probably have fun shotgunning Revenants and eating their rockets for lunch with hopes of a Berserk, which is also a secret. I should mention the switches blend into the level, making them missable, but's that's more the texturepacks fault if anything.

 

With all of my respect, why do you hide weapons you will absolutely need? After 15 minutes into this level I expected that I have to shotgun Cyberdemons, which brings me to my next point: this level not only strangles you with ammo and health, but also monsters. This Map feels like one huge fight, you run in, wake some monsters up, then run into the warm and deadly hands of an Arch-Vile, then run into a tea party of Hell Knights and then cuddle with Pinkies and Spectres in a dark room. And after that you'll get fisted by Revenants. Christ on a Mancubus give me 15 seconds of space to gather not only myself, but also health and shells. But no, you press a switch you get spooked by a Skelethor, you want to exit the level and get spitroasted by a Hell Knight and a Skeleington, you go anywhere and you'll get mercilessly shot at and so on and so forth. It's so bad that the Arch-Vile cage fight where you choose between a plasmo or an Invul is the most memorable fight in this map, and a pain for people who go for 100% items if they take the plasma. Because the Invul gets blocked during the fight.

 

Jeez, that was a good chunk. I give this level 3 out of 5, great by looks and design, but bitter in fights and combat design.

 

I hope you can get the negative aspects from this text, and take them with a small grain of salt from me. I just do this for fun.

[Sectorslayer]

2 hours ago, thiccyosh said:

this level not only strangles you with ammo and health, but also monsters

Thanks for the lengthy feedback! Interesting read. I already got from the other comments that being relentless with monsters is only fun, on the other hand, gracious with weapons and ammo. I think I will keep the stranglehold regarding health. The secrets are pretty easy but I shouldn’t be impossible to do a no-secrets run. Lower difficulty levels should ease up even more. Thanks again for going through this! 😏

[Murdoch]

10 minutes ago, sectrslayr said:

Thanks for the lengthy feedback! Interesting read. I already got from the other comments that being relentless with monsters is only fun, on the other hand, gracious with weapons and ammo. I think I will keep the stranglehold regarding health. The secrets are pretty easy but I shouldn’t be impossible to do a no-secrets run. Lower difficulty levels should ease up even more. Thanks again for going through this! 😏

 

I would much rather a map be stingy with health than ammo and weapons. It can increase the tension. I should have added, I actually did like that ambush in concept. It startled me, and that's a good thing. It was just way over the top. Oh and I enjoyed the music track. Was good and fit the feel of the map well.

[Clippy]

 

[Sectorslayer]

8 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

There're ways to work out multiple spawning points in a big lowering sector in the mapping format you chose,

You spotted the problem. What’s the solution? Splitting the sector I guess. I think I have an idea how to do this…

[Maribo]

14 hours ago, sectrslayr said:

I tried to stay vanilla. But I suggest playing on GZDoom or other limit removing and visuals enhancing ports.

Just letting you know that it crashes instantly on DSDA-Doom with error for:

P_SetupLevel: Level wad structure is incomplete. There is no ML_SECTORS lump.

Just posting because it sounds like you intended for it to be vanilla or limit-removing instead of a (G)ZDoom requirement with that bit in the opening post.

[Sectorslayer]

25 minutes ago, Maribo said:

Just letting you know that it crashes instantly on DSDA-Doom with error for:

P_SetupLevel: Level wad structure is incomplete. There is no ML_SECTORS lump.

Just posting because it sounds like you intended for it to be vanilla or limit-removing instead of a (G)ZDoom requirement with that bit in the opening post.

Didn’t test it on other ports. I think I just forgot to configure a node builder. 🤔

[Sectorslayer]

1 hour ago, Clippy said:

 

Thanks for the video! Your Revenant punching skills are terrific. The vid pretty much shows the main problem people might have with the map. Next update needs to give out the weapons without secret shenanigans! 🚧 

[Fiendish]

Looks like this one's a bit polarizing based on the previous comments. I gave it a shot and recorded a demo for you.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k7ZwIgWnGlfvN8DwUwY15K1SnRQ7lk9Z/view?usp=sharing

(recorded on GZDoom 4.5.0)

 

Overall, I loved the map. It had some pretty evil traps and definitely made me sweat. The music also helped give it a very oppressive feel. Health and ammo felt fair to me, and the combat was heart-pumping, to say the least. You also did an outstanding job with the architecture, texturing, and overall progression of the map. I loved the way areas opened back up to previous areas, reusing space, and I never felt lost. I also loved the finale fight; it was really exhilarating to push through it, especially since I went into it blind and so had no idea how it would unfold. The length was also just right -- not too short, and not too long.

 

I would echo some of the suggestions others have mentioned previously. Although I was able to find the SSG at the right time and find the rocket launcher, it's entirely possible to get jumped by the most intense ambush in the map without first getting the SSG (which for most would not be fun). That's what happened on my first attempt, and the ambush did feel a bit cheap because of that. I'd agree that it would be worth adding in a second SSG to ensure that the player is properly equipped no matter which route they take, or else preventing the player from triggering the intense ambush until they have picked up the SSG. I didn't try the map without the rocket launcher, but I can imagine that that would also be overly punishing. So I'd say put the rocket launcher outside of any secrets. (Maybe swap the rocket launcher with one of the boxes of rockets somewhere.)

 

It's also definitely worth implementing difficulty settings with a map of this kind; I think the reception of the map would be a lot more consistently positive if you did. You can't please everyone, but adding difficulty settings goes a long way toward broadening the audience that will enjoy the map. 

 

But again, I thought this was fantastic! I'd love to see some more maps from you that have a similar style. 

[galileo31dos01]

2 hours ago, sectrslayr said:

You spotted the problem. What’s the solution? Splitting the sector I guess. I think I have an idea how to do this…

 

Yeah, making small sectors, inside other less smaller sectors, inside the big floor could do the trick, besides adding dummy sectors where needed, unless zdoom automatically understands what you're trying to accomplish but I'm not really sure about it...

 

I think before going there it's important to take care of the monster closets outside, which aren't bad but could be improved for better results, and for that I highly recommend looking at this thread. 

[Bri]

It gave me a good laugh when shit broke out, but I loved it. I didn't think it was too bad honestly. I'll just echo what other people said about making sure the player's properly equipped.

[Sectorslayer]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! I ensure you I find it all very constructive. It basically comes down to @Biodegradables observation:

„Dread Factory is caught between two different ideas: A resource-starving survival map and a classic style map with more hectic combat. Unfortunately, this hybrid isn't working“

 

Let’s see how I can change that. Stay tuned for the next update!