[Single Map, Vanilla Doom II] Ain't My Demons -- (somewhat) abstract hell-ish map

[Biodegradable]

31 minutes ago, TeK (⌐■_■) said:

But you only need knowledge of what a death exit is. You need not to have played scythe map 25 to see the exit sign, the exit hole/teleport, a rocket launcher, and understand what the mapper is trying to convey. Doesn't make it dumb, silly or poorly designed.

 

Assuming the player has not been playing community WADs consistently for over 20 years and has never, ever encountered this type of exit before, how on Earth are they supposed know what to do though? All the player sees is what looks like a door that didn't work. It completely falls apart once you realise that this type of exit hinges on the idea that the player has seen this obscure type of exit before that was not present in the original game, is barely used in most community WADs and it is completely counter-intuitive to the game's central theme of fighting for survival. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Biodegradable

[SMG_Man]

I'm w/ Clippy and Bio on this one, ik death exits exist and have seen them in several speedruns and stuff, but it's one of those tricks in Vanilla/limit removing (like archvile jumps) that most players aren't going to think of most of the time, even if they know about them. Putting a rocket-launcher next to a sky-hole really isn't enough to telegraph such a specific trick imo.

[TeK (⌐■_■)]

53 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

Assuming the player has not been playing community WADs consistently for over 20 years and has never, ever encountered this type of exit before, how on Earth are they supposed know what to do though? All the player sees is what looks like a door that didn't work.

 

I've only been playing community wads since late 2018, and the first time I ever came across this type of exit (which indeed was scythe 2), it seemed obvious with the exit hole, the exit signs and the rocket launcher, all being right there, that the player was supposed to rocket themselves into the exit.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

It completely falls apart once you realise that this type of exit hinges on the idea that the player has seen this obscure type of exit before that was not present in the original game, is barely used in most community WADs and it is completely counter-intuitive to the game's central theme of fighting for survival. 

 

 

Again, I say the idea does not hinge on the player seeing this exact setup before to be able to understand what to do, and that it doesn't qualify it as being dumb, poorly designed, whatever. This is what I'm arguing.

 

It does need the player to know that the player corpse can exit the level yes, but I see no reason why a mapper can't put something in his/her map that could be outside a players knowledge (what's so bad about learning something new?), or something that isn't widely used in other community maps. And as far as

 

53 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

it is completely counter-intuitive to the game's central theme of fighting for survival. 

 

What rule says that community wads have to follow the original games designs, ideas, etc.?

 

 

 

Edit: I'm not trying to come off as an ass, or jump down your throat about this, nor am I trying to say that you have to like the idea of this exit. I just genuinely like seeing stuff outside the norm. I don't enjoy every strange, odd map that requires some strange form of progression, but I also don't think it makes those maps/wads bad.

Edited October 28, 2021 by TeK (⌐■_■)

[Biodegradable]

18 minutes ago, TeK (⌐■_■) said:

Again, I say the idea does not hinge on the player seeing this exact setup before to be able to understand what to do, and that it doesn't qualify it as being dumb, poorly designed, whatever. This is what I'm arguing.

 

It does need the player to know that the player corpse can exit the level yes, but I see no reason why a mapper can't put something in his/her map that could be outside a players knowledge.

 

But again, just sticking a vent with a rocket launcher next to it and an exit sign doesn't explain what you're supposed to do. HOW can one possibly interpet, turn around, blow yourself up and let the physics do the rest from this set up? That's the key problem, mate. Explain how one, with absolutely no prior knowledge of this death exit-style, could possibly understand what to do in this scenario? That's the crutch of the problem and mine and Clippy's experiences are the perfect example of why this is not a terribly good idea to use. If it were a lot more common, I'd give you some credence, but it isn't. The reason I bring up the base game is because community WADs are an offshoot of it and still use conventional methods from it aside from the new tricks and innovations the community has devised since. After all, the traditional death exit was also in the original game.

 

26 minutes ago, TeK (⌐■_■) said:

I'm not trying to come off as an ass, or jump down your throat about this, nor am I trying to say that you have to like the idea of this exit. I just genuinely like seeing stuff outside the norm. I don't enjoy every strange, odd map that requires some strange form of progression, but I also don't think it makes those maps/wads bad.

 

No argument there, man. I'm all for innovation and out-of-the-box approaches to Doom mapping. I just think that this particular death exit is really obscure and not a particularly good design because it does a poor job explaining itself. 

[TeK (⌐■_■)]

20 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 

But again, just sticking a vent with a rocket launcher next to it and an exit sign doesn't explain what you're supposed to do. HOW can one possibly interpet, turn around, blow yourself up and let the physics do the rest from this set up? That's the key problem, mate. Explain how one, with absolutely no prior knowledge of this death exit-style, could possibly understand what to do in this scenario? That's the crutch of the problem and mine and Clippy's experiences are the perfect example of why this is not a terribly good idea to use. If it were a lot more common, I'd give you some credence, but it isn't. The reason I bring up the base game is because community WADs are an offshoot of it and still use conventional methods from it aside from the new tricks and innovations the community has devised since. After all, the traditional death exit was also in the original game.

 

 

No argument there, man. I'm all for innovation and out-of-the-box approaches to Doom mapping. I just think that this particular death exit is really obscure and not a particularly good design because it does a poor job explaining itself. 

 

Knowing death exits were a thing, and seeing the rocket launcher and skyhole exit and exit signs it just all clicked man idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I even remember thinking what a cool and neat idea to have the player suiciding into the exit when I first played that scythe 2 map. I doubt I'm the only person to figure it out without having seen it before or in a speedrun, whether in this map or scythe 2 or whatever other map.

 

 

I guess I've derailed this thread enough though, seeing all the talk about the map and the exit I recorded a hmp fda.

amdemo.zip

[maxmanium]

If anyone's curious, here's a demo of me playing the map :)

 

authdemo.zip

[Clippy]

I'm actually getting quite insulted at having my intelligence and thinking process questioned over and over again because I couldn't solve some random unbeknownst to me niche gaming technique

 

Go find something better to do with your time

[Andromeda]

18 hours ago, Degree23 said:

Alexander Nikulin's 2007 TAS uses this trick on Map 9 of Hell Revealed. (Though it's not necessary to complete the map normally) I don't think it's the first instance of it being used, but it's the oldest one I can think of right now. No doubt some more experienced Doomers will know of an earlier use.

The trick seems to have been discovered in 2001 by Vincent Catalaá, showcased on this Plutonia MAP17 Pacifist demo.

 

On topic, cheeky suicide exit, I suggest you to keep it in spite of the negative feedback.

[Doomkid]

I was gonna make a joke about how Metallica MIDIs are still great for Doom maps so long as you use one of my tuned-up versions, but now I’m way more interested in new and interesting ways (to me) to force death exits. I’ve never beaten Scythe 2 in SP. I can’t say for sure if I’d have figured it out on my own, but either way I’ll record a demo of this map later :) Seems cool!