Let's Talk About "Jokewads"...

[Norb]

Just now, Biodegradable said:

 

Use the little "Report post" button on the top right-hand corner of your original post and request it to be deleted. The staff will take care of it.

Ok

[CBM]

I think that troll wads and joke wads should be recognized as two different things

 

a troll wad should perhaps give a warning but no wad should give a ban unless under very very serious situations

 

its hard to make a good joke wad and it should have as much respect as any other type of wad

 

we have been blessed with many good joke wads on doomworld and also cursed with troll wads

 

however troll wads are often easy to spot and can therefore just be ignored unless there is a genuine wish to help that mapper become better

[Boomdav]

In my perspective,terry wads at least take some effort to be made than''jokewads''[by that i mean,for example,a big room with only with Sm or cyberdemons or even a a map with only a long corridor to the exit.Most of them utilize zdoom features like cutscenes,the rooms before the terry trap are mostly detailed,and even the traps themself require some usage of scripting.My main point is that terrywads can not be comparable with very low effort wads,that they can be made under 1 or 2 minutes

[Biodegradable]

1 minute ago, Boomdav said:

My main point is that terrywads can not be comparable with very low effort wads,that they can be made under 1 or 2 minutes

 

The irony of a Trollface profile pic being a TerryWAD apologist is too delicious, fam. ;^P

[Captain POLAND]

Like I said, they're not fun to play, but they can be fun to watch other people play. But lots of wads don't even have that going for them.

[Sena]

If I'll play armchair psychologist for a bit (not a fun game, rules are too complicated, I'd rather just play Doom), I reckon a lot of these people probably do it just because of low self esteem, that is to say, rather than try and work hard to produce something that they are genuinely proud of, and then run the risk of having people say it's bad, likely because they're new so they're still learning the ropes, they just make something "bad on purpose", and that way they have an all-powerful shield against any criticism.

But I suppose bad jokewads aren't exactly new, I've played a lot of them that are basically about forum drama that, as someone who is not privy to 10 year old forum drama, have no semblance of humour. When the crux of your WAD is getting community figures who will appear, then they say "hello I am big retard poopface" (with added spelling mistakes for extra funny of course!), and then they die, that's a type of humour that dies out quick, matter of fact when you play those types of WADs they are so devoid of anything actually interesting they feel more educational than they do comedic, and we all know how bad educational games are.

Still, I thought IOGW was genuinely funny, so if they can do it, then I've got reason to believe other people can.

[Dubbag]

Jokewads remind me of those videos where someone does something really awful or annoying to someone else on camera and then they scream that it's just a prank when the person gets mad. No, it's not a prank, it was a shitty thing to do to someone end of story. Same thing with a joke WAD, covering your ass by saying it's a joke is a load of crap.

[TMD]

1 hour ago, Sena said:

If I'll play armchair psychologist for a bit (not a fun game, rules are too complicated, I'd rather just play Doom), I reckon a lot of these people probably do it just because of low self esteem, that is to say, rather than try and work hard to produce something that they are genuinely proud of, and then run the risk of having people say it's bad, likely because they're new so they're still learning the ropes, they just make something "bad on purpose", and that way they have an all-powerful shield against any criticism.

But I suppose bad jokewads aren't exactly new, I've played a lot of them that are basically about forum drama that, as someone who is not privy to 10 year old forum drama, have no semblance of humour. When the crux of your WAD is getting community figures who will appear, then they say "hello I am big retard poopface" (with added spelling mistakes for extra funny of course!), and then they die, that's a type of humour that dies out quick, matter of fact when you play those types of WADs they are so devoid of anything actually interesting they feel more educational than they do comedic, and we all know how bad educational games are.

Still, I thought IOGW was genuinely funny, so if they can do it, then I've got reason to believe other people can.

How about another jokewad, Murray?

[Gibbon]

Jokewads are funny if they are done right (Mock1 and 2).  But if it's just a crappy map with crappy texture work and nothing to do.  Then it's an 'annoying wad'.

[Andromeda]

I'll leave this here, enjoy.

[The BMFG]

i remember when i made THFS. the map design was admittedly horrible and i did throw in a shit ton of realm667 stuff thinking it would make it better. now that i look back on it i feel stupid. i have been making new THFS content in hopes to make the series better and actually funny. it was a bad jokewad

[LadyMistDragon]

Jokewads are fine, so long as they aren't specifically the low-effort trash map kind referenced by @TheMagicMushroomMan in the OP. I think the main problem is that the majority aren't funny at all, and much of the remainder will only elicit one or two mild laughs at best. I have come across some sound-effect mods that made me snort a few times, but I think the main issue is the subpar maps passed off as 'jokewads.'

[Scypek2]

It's hard to make a statement about "jokewads" when the term, whether self-applied or not, can encompass such a wide variety of content. Some people call terry wads jokewads. Some people define "good jokewads" as completely normal projects with a humorous theme, like Cyb's Freaky Colonoscopy. Some people put together a random jumble of sectors and monsters and call it a "jokewad". Some people put together a completely normal, moderately detailed level with maybe a bit of ammo imbalance here and there and call it a "jokewad" because they hate themselves.

 

The WOOO series seem to be a perfect example of this dissonance - unlike Mock 2, which seems to stick to a cohesive theme for the most part, WOOO is more like a deranged evil twin of the Doomworld Mega Project series. It's got high effort, low effort, zero effort, tiny maps, colossal maps, effortless maps, challenging maps, fun maps, obnoxious maps and boring maps... It does give it a rather unique appeal, though it's probably best enjoyed just like the DMP series - with liberal usage of IDCLEV.

 

If I was to define "jokewad" in a prescriptivist way, rather than attempt to somehow consolidate all of those wildly different existing usages, I'd say it's just a wad made for fun that lets the widely understood "quality" take a backseat. Cyb's Freaky Colonoscopy is as silly as it sounds but it has normal gameplay and elegant visual, so I wouldn't call it a jokewad, just a wad with a humorous theme. The Given throws the standard Doom gameplay out of the window, but it's polished, serious in tone, and clearly took a lot of effort, so no one would call it a jokewad. The Revenant Bus... well, it's quite polished too, and well put together, but the fun factor is being deliberately sacrificed to make the silly premise work better. And that, in my opinion, puts it in the elusive category of a "good jokewad". A "good jokewad" is equal parts silly, fun, and well-made, but when improving gameplay, or just putting in effort, gets in the way of silly fun, the silly fun must be prioritized.

 

I think there may be great potential in jokewads, good or otherwise, and they may even be a good way to get out of a mapping block, as long as "making a jokewad" doesn't mean "trying and failing to make a normal map and then hating yourself for being such a joke". Basically, if you want to make a jokewad (as opposed to "a regular wad with a humorous theme"), don't try to make it bad, don't try to make it good. Just do it, make whatever you think of. Make a room out of 5 linedefs instead of 50 if that means you get to the point faster. Try out new weird textures, room shapes, enemy and item arrangements that wouldn't have made sense in a serious wad. Throw in some new sprites and textures you wanted to use but never did. Maybe tell a story with your level, a story that seems fun but would've required a million of new sprites and gameplay mechanics to "properly" implement in Doom, but you can always implement it improperly instead, and it'll be fun still. Maybe the wild experimenting will give you a fresh idea for a serious map. Maybe you're such a perfectionist that you'll accidentally end up making a good wad instead of the "bad map" you were attempting, whereas attempting to make a "good map" would've left you with absolutely nothing. Or maybe you'll accomplish none of that, but you'll still have fun making and/or playing it. Either way, it's gonna be worth it.

[Teo Slayer]

JokeWADs? Meh, MediocreWADs that try to be funny

[pcorf]

1 hour ago, Teo Slayer said:

JokeWADs? Meh, MediocreWADs that try to be funny

 

CHUGGER!

[roadworx]

as several others have stated, jokewads are really only good if they're good standing on their own. even if you don't understand the references or get the joke, it's still easy to see that it had genuine work and thought put into it and isn't just slapped together (note that i'm not saying that it has to be fun to play, cuz really, does a wad NEED to be fun in order to be considered "good"?). if they don't have that, then, well...it's shit lol

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Hell yeah, my thread made @roadworx come back!

 

Anyway, I agree with all the points you guys make.

 

I also want to say that this thread was not made to put down any specific person here:

 

@Norb and @The BMFG - the maps you guys made aren't the kind of maps I'm talking about here. Even if your maps had problems due to inexperience, you guys still both made an effort to do something different. So don't feel bad, it takes time to learn and improve.

[Astronomical]

I remember really liking borogk's mods he released at 1,000 subscribers to be really funny.  I think throwaway joke mods such as the ones featured in the link are really good at being joke mods because they are purposely absurd, and while they eventually the mods wear out their welcome, they aren't just mock 2 for the 40th time.

[Norb]

4 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Hell yeah, my thread made @roadworx come back!

 

Anyway, I agree with all the points you guys make.

 

I also want to say that this thread was not made to put down any specific person here:

 

@Norb and @The BMFG - the maps you guys made aren't the kind of maps I'm talking about here. Even if your maps had problems due to inexperience, you guys still both made an effort to do something different. So don't feel bad, it takes time to learn and improve.

I don't feel bad, I actually knew I would get such feedback for the jokewad I made, I mean, a wad that is just 1 map, with only 2 textures, a poorly made monster and the goal is to collect all pages wouldn't impress anybody.

 

[Kinsie]

I think a lot of the bad jokewads the OP is talking about, to give the most charitable perspective possible (which is uncharacteristic of me!) mostly come from kids and other newcomers who haven't developed the skills and taste to make good stuff yet, and decide to lean into their rookie nature with memes and a non-serious nature to try and make their work more palatable since they see it as easier than practicing and developing their abilities further. It doesn't really work that way, though, since as a community we've seen all the clichés in the OP before through Mock 2 and myriad others.

 

Speaking as someone who's been sweating this stuff with a close friend over the last year (and technically, the last decade!), a good quality jokewad relies on two key ingredients. The first, obviously, is good comedic writing, which is really fucking hard to do in an interactive form, since you have far less control over timing - the most crucial part of a joke - than you would in a linear media like film or literature (unless you delve into unskippable ACS cutscenes, which you shouldn't). Even professionals struggle with this stuff, as all the bad attempts at Funny Puzzle Games following in the wake of Portal's release attest, so don't feel bad if you're not exactly nailing this part.

 

The other key ingredient is surprise and novelty, bending the gameplay, engine and the player's expectations to shock and delight them. A great example of this is Turbocharged Arcade, which throws something new and weird at the player in every map, amusing the player while also providing them with esoteric new challenges that you wouldn't expect in Doom. Naturally, advanced ports like GZDoom or Eternity lend themselves into going full tilt into this, but with a little luck and a whole ton of esoteric engine experimentation you can even jump into this in Boom! (see: that one bouncy-wall map that... Skillsaw, I think? made)

 

If you get one of these right, you're on the path to a decent jokewad. If you somehow nail both, you're walking among giants.

[ducon]

JokeWADs, funny or not?

It depends on you.

Some find funny to see people stumble and fall (I don’t), some find funny to harm people (I don’t), some find funny to bully (I don’t), some find funny caricatures (usually, I do), some find funny to roll coal (I don’t), some find funny to play jokeWADs (usually, I do), etc.

[Ludi]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:20 PM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

And why they are almost never funny.

 

Hot take of the century lmao

[Murdoch]

I honestly cannot recall ever downloading a jokewad.

[RetroAkaMe]

I honestly think it depends one someone's humour. You might think it's funny, but if everyone thinks it's not, don't post it.

 

I'll be speaking about my "fried chicken" jokewad here too. When I made it, I titled it a "jokewad" because... Doomguy and nuggets is a bit odd.

And I agree with the low-effort, I really do. I'll probably re-post it as an effort-full wad.

 

On 10/29/2021 at 4:20 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

-Lame memes used as textures
-Ugly, archaic visuals that don't even come close to 1994 standards
-Immature sprite replacements
-Annoying sound effects
-D_RUNNIN
-Combat that poses no challenge, with random enemies scatteted everywhere
-Total lack of texture alignment
-Entire maps made from one texture
-Softlocks, bugs, HOM (no, it's not an illusiopit)
-Modular, blocky, uninspired architecture
-Maps that take 30 seconds to finish
-"This map is so awful, don't play it, I didn't even try. That's funny, right?"

 

I can't find really another way to use something else than textures to implement something (unless it's monsters) but if the such texture is lame, I hope the creator will never think you will go: HOLY SHIT IS THAT AN ILLUMINATI WITH MLG GLASSES HUNTING ME? HOLY FUCK THAT'S SO FUNNYYYY!!1!1!1!1!

 

For the last thing in the list, I recommend using ACS to open a door when all monsters of a certain tag die. I wanted to do that in my single jokewad but didn't know how to do it.

On 10/29/2021 at 4:20 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

-Annoying sound effects

Dude, why doesn't everyone just start using the windows 3.1 ta-da sound effect? Seriously, it's perfect for weapons AND pickups! (Same for spheres too)

[ducon]

48 minutes ago, RetroAkaMe said:

Dude, why doesn't everyone just start using the windows 3.1 ta-da sound effect?

 

Wasn’t it in Classic Mac (the monochrome one)?

[RetroAkaMe]

1 hour ago, ducon said:

Wasn’t it in Classic Mac (the monochrome one)?

Might be. I've heard that Bill Gates worked with Steve Jobs, so he might have copied the sounds to his system, or else, Steve did ;)

[ducon]

It’s in the same Mac Classic that I heard a "quack" sound of a duck.

[ChopBlock223]

Of .wads with some emphasis on being funny and goofy, or just lighthearted in general, but which also legitimately good to actually play, Pirate Doom and Going Down obviously take the cake. In more recent years, Alfonzone and HFFM have given me lots of enjoyment.

[PsychEyeball]

I feel like this community would strangle me if I said I played through Mock 2 The Speed of Stupid more than say, any other good Doom WAD that ended up being made.

 

Scythe? Sunlust? Ancient Aliens? Back to Saturn X? Nope, never heard of those. Excuse me while I replay the super serious In Defense of Demonsex for the 15th time. I may have a problem.

 

But yeah, the problem with WADs like these is that the content of jokewads is something that's funny or welcomed only once. There's no reason to make another level where every sector is an elevator and where movement is borderline impossible. Not to mention that awful level design is a tough thing to do if you're striving to achieve comedy. If whatever you're making is just dull or painful, it'll be hard to laugh with it or even at it.

 

Maybe I should do a thread where I analyse all of Mock 2's map design in depth and therefore renounce any desire to be taken seriously.

[leodoom85]

*When some easter eggs in some serious megawads are much funnier than whole jokewads...*

 

That happens.