DBP41: Hell Revealed III (Pt. 1)

[OniriA]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:32 PM, Grain of Salt said:

"Lord," they said unto him, "how will we recognize the true Hell Revealed 3 when it comes?"

 

And Jesus said unto them: "Well, it won't have joe-ilya maps, lol."

 

Lol 

[Nine Inch Heels]

I was compelled to play this, since it has a hell revealed label slapped on, and my general impression is roughly in the same ballpark of what cannonball already pointed out. The maps overall seem decent at a first glance, and I didn't happen to run into any egregious softlocks on accident. I didn't try to find some on purpose, truth be told, but the fact remains that my impression is not that this is ramshackle to the point of disrespecting the player's time (or the author's for that matter). As a personal aside, I like the idea of releasing it on an episode to episode basis, because that works better for me and my almost painfully limited "dooming time" these days...

 

Now, as for the name of the project, as much as I like some of the earlier Hell Revealed outings, I really don't care so much about who uses the series' name for their project, or who contributes to it, but I can't deny that seeing a would-be-sequel like 18 - 20 years after HR2 has seen the light of day is something I don't know how to feel about...

 

On one hand I don't think HR as a "trademark" is such a holy grail that it must not be touched by anybody under any circumstance, on the other hand I almost feel like it might have been better to just let the series rest in peace after such a long period of time without any sequels whatsoever.

 

With the above in mind, I find the argument that a sequel would have to be vanilla compatible to be a "true successor" moot, because nobody can say for sure if the series would have adopted a more lenient format over the course of time - assuming it was actually "kept alive" over the course of nearly 2 decades. So, if somebody wants to make a HR3, and they want boom or MBF functionality, then I don't see why that would disqualify something from being part of a series that basically had very little in the way of format-options back when it was made...

 

The one thing I really don't understand, though - and this might just be the one gripe that I can't quite get over - is the following:

Let's be charitable and say somebody has the balls it takes to launch a project that carries the name "hell revealed" in some fashion and gives it a fair shake quality-wise, instead of assuming it's just a PR stunt (which, yes, it might just be, but I'm too lazy to belabour the point atm)... Why would you spend that "HR-token" you had the balls to reach out for on something that is just slightly harder than the average DBP-series entry, while it's damn difficult (if not nigh impossible) to sell that this resembles what HR would be if it was made today, especially when you have a map in there that is called "I never played Hell Revealed"..? Was the laugh really worth the scrutiny this would invariably invite..?

[SleepyVelvet]

43 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

"I never played Hell Revealed"..? Was the laugh really worth the scrutiny this would invariably invite..?

yes.

 

But I also wanna see the Jonas' (author of HR2) "HR3" map that I hear is floating in the aether; apparentlly that came before these 9 maps.

 

I also respect Roofi's opinon on the brand, because they're a connoisseur.  But also I was a genwunner in Pokemon so I hate to say it but srry your opinion is cool and sacred but you might end up sufferring anyways.

 

Anyways, a few of these maps were real bangers.  nom nom, yummy maps

[Demonologist]

https://doomer.boards.net/post/33857

So the project management has reacted, the last paragraph is of particular interest within this problem's context.

I'll let others decide how convincing the arguments are and how strong the foundation this whole thing sits upon is, I'll just note that, unlike Plutonia 2, this whole situation can create another kind of precedent and open a way for some other dissident with limitless ambition who decides that now it's time for them to create Alien Vendetta 2, or Memento Mori 3, or better yet - to finish up Scythe X in Erik Alm's stead because that's what they want to make. And we can die mad about it.

[Nine Inch Heels]

18 minutes ago, Demonologist said:

I'll let others decide how convincing the arguments are and how strong the foundation this whole thing sits upon is, I'll just note that, unlike Plutonia 2, this whole situation can create another kind of precedent and open a way for some other dissident with limitless ambition who decides that now it's time for them to create Alien Vendetta 2, or Memento Mori 3, or better yet - to finish up Scythe X in Erik Alm's stead because that's what they want to make. And we can die mad about it.

I don't care much about the reasoning, in the end, what matters are the facts... And one fact that I find impossible to "reason out of existence" is that nobody really has a right to dictate who will be allowed to create what (plutonia 4 comes to mind), unless they were directly involved with the prequels (and even that is debatable, to an extent, and sometimes a matter of common decency, rather than laws written in stone)...

 

The bottom line for me in this case is a blurry one... There is no rule set in stone that states a HR3 cannot be made by anybody, but there is also no rule that says that if somebody with limitless ambitions were to make one, then it would have to be "widely accepted" as an "official sequel" as per community consensus... That is to say, if enough people feel like this is not resembling what HR is in their minds, then those people probably won't object if somebody else made a HR3 that fits their vision better than what we are looking at right here, right now...

 

The way I see it, this project makes a claim of continuity, but if that claim ends up being refuted far and wide, then they can keep claiming as much as they want without being granted anything... And they can die mad about it... Do you disagree..?

[Demonologist]

49 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Do you disagree..?

I don't really have anything to add to my previous post in this thread, I tried to appeal to reason (and that appeal was well-minded, even though some people chose to see malign intent or mere butthurt in it), and apparently it didn't work, so now I can only make this conundrum public so that everyone could see both points of view. I care about the classics' legacy, that's true, but I'm in no position to dictate anything to anyone (again, even though some people apparently think that I'm trying to do exactly that).

Edited November 24, 2021 by Demonologist : phrasing

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I have a suggestion for this, and it's just a thought so take it with a grain of salt. Maybe change the name from "Hell Revealed III" to something like "Hell Revealed: Chronicles". This way the title would clue people in that it is sort of a spin-off/tribute instead of a "true" sequel. I think people would be less inclined to argue about the title being clickbait.

As an example, when someone sees "Plutonia 7", they automatically know that it is going to be a tribute/spin-off created by someone else as opposed to a true sequel. By changing the title of this project, it would clue people in as to what it is, and there would be less arguing. People also wouldn't expect the gameplay to be an exact replica of HR's style. It would signify that you are making a variant of HR as opposed to a direct sequel. But you still get to keep "Hell Revealed" in the title. I think it would be cooler to have a title like that, too.

Just a thought, obviously I have nothing to do with this project and I don't want to be a backseat dictator. Either way, good luck to the mappers working on it. I really liked Joe's map.

Edited November 24, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Doom-X-Machina]

H3LL REVEALED

[Demonologist]

@TheMagicMushroomMan

That's the thing, there are many ways around the problem without dropping the hell revealed part completely and without pulling the plug on the entire thing, I don't even know just how the latter could've been deduced from my words, I suggested renaming it, not cancelling it.

You've actually brought up a very good point regarding Plutonia that completely eluded me, much to my embarrassment. It's true that a proper sequel would've been The Plutonia Experiment 2, but yes, they decided to alter the title in a way that'd point everyone towards the fan-made and tribute-oriented nature of the project. Thank you for this.

[WashingMachineEnthusiasts]

14 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I have a suggestion for this, and it's just a thought so take it with a grain of salt. Maybe change the name from "Hell Revealed III" to something like "Hell Revealed: Chronicles". This way the title would clue people in that it is sort of a spin-off/tribute instead of a "true" sequel. I think people would be less inclined to argue about the title being clickbait.

The idea that a sequel isn't really a sequel if it doesn't have a number in it is news to me - and would be news to the whole video game industry, and Hollywood too for that matter.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

17 hours ago, WashingMachineEnthusiasts said:

The idea that a sequel isn't really a sequel if it doesn't have a number in it is news to me - and would be news to the whole video game industry, and Hollywood too for that matter.

Either you're being a bit pedantic, or you are misinterpreting what I said. My point is that a different title would signify that it is not a mainline sequel. See for example Monster Hunter Stories, Final Fantasy Chronicles, or any TV series or film that is a spin-off of a franchise. The term "spin-off" exists for a reason: to signify that it is not a mainline entry in a series.

[WashingMachineEnthusiasts]

7 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Either you're being a bit pedantic, or you are misinterpreting what I said. My point is that a different title would signify that it is not a mainline sequel. See for example Monster Hunter Stories, Final Fantasy Chronicles, or any TV series or film that is a spin-off of a franchise. The term "spin-off" exists for a reason: to signify that it is not a mainline entry in a series.

So Doom Eternal is not a mainline sequel to the Doom reboot? You're generalising a rule from a few cases that support your point and ignoring the many others that don't.

 

In any case, would it matter? It still has Hell Revealed in the title, still trades on the name recognition, still invites the same comparisons to the original, and still raises the same questions about permissions - if we were talking about copyrighted works, there is no legal distinction between a sequel and a spinoff. 

 

So I really don't think the line between Plutonia 2 and Plutonia Revisited, TNT Revilution etc is as black and white as you're making it out to be. Would TNT Revilution, for example, really have been received any differently if it was called TNT 3? And I don't think this project being Hell Revealed: Subtitle instead would materially change anyone's opinion of it.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, WashingMachineEnthusiasts said:

So Doom Eternal is not a mainline sequel to the Doom reboot? You're generalising a rule from a few cases that support your point and ignoring the many others that don't.

 

In any case, would it matter? It still has Hell Revealed in the title, still trades on the name recognition, still invites the same comparisons to the original, and still raises the same questions about permissions - if we were talking about copyrighted works, there is no legal distinction between a sequel and a spinoff. 

 

So I really don't think the line between Plutonia 2 and Plutonia Revisited, TNT Revilution etc is as black and white as you're making it out to be. Would TNT Revilution, for example, really have been received any differently if it was called TNT 3? And I don't think this project being Hell Revealed: Subtitle instead would materially change anyone's opinion of it.

1- Everybody knows DOOM Eternal is a mainline entry because it is a $60 game by id. You're comparing a commercial game release to a community modding project. People aren't stupid. We're not talking about copyrighted works, we're not talking about Hollywood and legal distinctions. We're talking about a modding community.

 

2- Whether or not it matters is up for debate, that's why we're discussing it.

 

3- If it wasn't "promoted" as a direct sequel and was promoted as a tribute/spin-off instead, I would have different expectations, so I'm sure other people would as well.

 

4- Yes, if someone created "TNT 3", people would have different expectations than they would with something like Revilution, same with Plutonia Revisited, which are both, above all else, tributes, and can be recognized as such by their titles. Go create an "Alien Vendetta 2" thread and see what happens. Plenty of spin-offs have launched to success, and besides Plutonia 2, most of them weren't labeled as direct sequels. If you created a WAD inspired by AV and called it "Throwback to Alien Vendetta", you wouldn't see the same animosity as you would had you promoted it as a direct sequel, because people wouldn't think that you're trying to show off your huge balls.

 

4.5- Plutonia 2 is up for debate, I wouldn't have given it that title. If I was new to the community, I would have assumed that Plutonia 2 was by the developers of the original. 

 

5- Changing the title will not change the quality of the WAD, but it could temper expectations and less people would complain about it.

 

You seem hell bent on arguing over fine details, so what is your suggestion?

 

In the end, it was stated on DB that Jonas (HR2) was in contact with the project leader (40oz). If Jonas gave permission, that's the end of the story. Whether or not people like the final product doesn't make a difference if it has the approval of the original author. 

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to insult you about any of this but we should stop and agree to disagree because people are going to be talking about our "dramatic" argument here and they're going to make posts to add to the "drama", even though we're having a simple conversation. If you have anything else to say, feel free to show your point of view, but I won't continue on about this because as @MattFright said, people need to discuss the maps themselves.

Edited November 25, 2021 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[Pistoolkip]

Legally Distinct Heck Revealed

[MattFright]

Can we stop arguing here, and if at all necessary, instead create another thread elsewhere titled something like "should different authors imply the continuation of another mapset series in their own unrelated one?" or whatever? It's really annoying to open a wad's thread only to see people arguing instead of...actually talking about the maps.

[xdude_gamer]

Whoa this is wild

[WashingMachineEnthusiasts]

51 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

You seem hell bent on arguing over fine details, so what is your suggestion?

It's not fine details, it's the entire point: either it has Hell Revealed in the name, or it doesn't. If someone doesn't think the maps live up to the first two projects, or they don't like DBPs in general, a subtitle instead of a 3 will change absolutely nothing. It will still be a DBP Hell Revealed project, and the quality of the maps will not change.

 

So my suggestion is to change nothing. Anyone who doesn't like this is free to not like it, and indeed free to pretend it doesn't exist if they don't want to. They are also free to make their own Hell Revealed 3, or Hell Revealed Chronicles, if they believe they can do it better.

 

EDIT: posted before I saw MattFright's post.

Edited November 25, 2021 by WashingMachineEnthusiasts

[Doomkid]

8 hours ago, WashingMachineEnthusiasts said:

Anyone who doesn't like this is free to not like it, and indeed free to pretend it doesn't exist if they don't want to.

Agreed, and same goes with people criticizing the title, they're absolutely free to do so if they want and people may ignore their criticisms as they see fit.

 

9 hours ago, MattFright said:

It's really annoying to open a wad's thread only to see people arguing instead of...actually talking about the maps.

It would be crazy if, when I release Memento Mori 3 next year, I didn't expect anyone to talk about the name :) It's sort of the "elephant in the room" when a project ties itself to something "Doom famous" like Hell Revealed. It would be kind of weird to expect a huge aspect of the HR3 project to not be discussed in the HR3 project thread, it really couldn't be more on-topic.

 

For whatever it's worth, the name doesn't bother me at all - we've had "spiritual sequels" to big-name Doom wads a number of times, sometimes people celebrate them and sometimes people berate them. "Plutonia 3" was and still is basically becoming a meme in the community, there was no moratorium on people criticizing the name in that instance either.

 

Honestly, in that case and in this case, it was undeniably a smart marketing move!

[dybbuk81]

This reminds me of when I rented Halloween 3, expecting it to have mike myers, or be by the same guy

[TPort777]

I can't believe anyone has this much to say about how you're allowed to make doom fan-levels. It seems kind of psychotic to me. Play them (or don't), and if you don't like em put em in the bin.

[klif]

Call it 'HELL REVEALED 3' !!! H.R.2 wasnt just like H.R. ,, the creators have NO easy task living up to the name, so I say go for it! We're due for a NEW HELL REVEALED! BRING THAT WAD ON BABY!

[Nihlith]

I love these maps. They're good looking and lots of fun. Map 4 really had me going with the large hallways and the sounds of the cyberdemon marching around periodically throughout. I recorded my playthrough but my computer took a shit early in map 5 :(.

 

Spoiler

[yt] 

 

edit: very nice status bar.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Nihlith

[klif]

I cant wait till all 32 maps are done , HELL REVEALED 3 MEGA WAD! Probably the most anticipated of the year for me. 

[Firedust]

Part 2 when :3

[dei_eldren]

It's always fun when everyone is trying to invalidate everyone else's opinion.  And when lukewarmness wins the day.

[klif]

Has there been word of any updates to this?! 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 hours ago, klif said:

Has there been word of any updates to this?! 

Check over on DB, they usually don't post news related to their projects on Doomworld.

[klif]

No updates as of late. Thanks for the tip on where to check. Maybe i should play the first 9 maps and see if those are any good. Just that my backlog of wads is crazy at 113 wads.