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dmslr

DBP41: Hell Revealed III (Pt. 1)

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7 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Well shit, this is a surprise.

 

Is the music in this similar to HR2?

 

Yes. There's some Thyrbse music from HR2 and some Thyrbse music not used in HR2, along with a few non-Thyrbse midis.

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1 hour ago, klif said:

Looks MEAN... Cool idea for the logo coud be ' He111Revealed '

and if they made the third 1 a part of the R

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For what it's worth, I remember before the Doomer Boards made their development board private, there was a poll on what the theme for the next one (which I think at the time was something from 4 to 8) should be, and this was one of the options. I don't remember what the others were because even as just a name, HR3 is quite a show stealer. So it's certainly something they've had time to consider.

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I don't have a problem with the title, I just see it as an evolution of the HR series. HR/HR2 are old wads, so I would expect some sort of an update in terms of design philosophy. After all, HR2 was a very divisive wad with the general consensus being that it didn't turn out as well as it could have. HR2 was also pretty different than the original, so it makes sense that this would follow suit, hopefully improving on HR2.

 

Unless this is a problem with the original HR/HR2 mappers, I think it's alright to have the title. I think some people might see the title as clickbait, but I just see it as a tribute. I'm not deeply familiar with the history of the series though. Just my two cents, for what it's worth!

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Friendly reminder this has absolutely no obligation to be Hell Revealed the way Donner and Niv did

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Im obviously in the minority, but I really enjoyed playing HR and HR2, and I kinda hope this the same kinda cramped bs-on-UV-level balls-to-the-wall hard stuff lol. 

 

Also just curious, given this is the sequel to HR2, were Donner/Niv or Jonas Feragan involved/approached in any which way in making this? Curious because they've been out of the Doom scene for years and years and was wondering what they've been up to lol.  

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11 hours ago, Roofi said:

I sincerely think that this wad should not be called Hell Revealed 3. The maps seem to me too modern and too spacious. Actually, do the authors even like the series? I highly doubt it.

 

Also, I would have preferred the sequel to keep the vanilla compatibility and the almost exclusive use of stock textures.

 

It seems like "Hell Revealed III" is more of a theme than a title.

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I agree with Roofi and Demonologist here : naming your wad "Hell Revealed III" is a double-edged sword, and an overtly poor decision if you're not even trying to imitate the classic HR/HRII formula.

Using HRII music is a good starting point in my book, but it's obviously far from sufficient !

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Pissing off purists is one of life's pleasures. And an HR that actually looks enjoyable (to me) seems like a good time. Gonna check these out later after work.

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I think you have to ask what the reason for calling this Hell Revealed III is. If it's because the maps have been designed, from the start, to pay homage to the original HR and to try to take that style of gameplay and maybe update it a bit for the modern era then it's commendable. If however it's simply a cheap way to try to drum up attention with brand recognition with the maps bearing little resemblance stylistically or combat-wise to the original then it's a bit disappointing to see. As a big fan of HR1 and perhaps as a bit of a cynic by nature I have to say I feel that this project falls more into the second category. That's not to say that these aren't good maps or that there wasn't a lot of work and thought put into them but I feel that if you'd called it something else I don't think anyone would have been saying "Oh, this feels like I'm playing hell revealed!"

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Why are people so butthurt about the name choice when Plutonia III (TWO, in fact) and Plutonia 7 (quite good) and shit exists? HR and HRII are classics, but not Plutonia-level classics, so just acknowledge what you believe it's worthy of such and ignore the rest. You can't stop people for creating Plutonias, TNTs, Hell Revealeds, Eviternities, Valiants, Vanguards, Baldur's Gates, or whatever.

 

Edited by Dragonker

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I've played through the first 3 maps so far and I'm having fun. I haven't played either of the original HRs so I'm totally unaware of any references I might be missing but the combat is solid and the texturing is utilitarian while remaining nice enough to look at. Fun MIDI choices as well.

 

At the rate I'm going I'm going to end up playing HR3 and Jaws in Space's Hell Revealed Returns before I play either of the first 2...

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6 hours ago, Snikle said:

Pissing off purists is one of life's pleasures. And an HR that actually looks enjoyable (to me) seems like a good time. Gonna check these out later after work.

I don't think it's being a purist to think that this opus inherits very little from the Hell Revealed series and therefore doesn't deserve to be called so. This doesn't mean that you have to imitate entirely the style of the two opuses, besides HR1 and HR2 are quite different in many aspects. On the other hand, the Hell Revealed series has always been recognized as "old-school slaughter" (even if all HR maps are not slaughter-oriented though). That's why I regretted the lack of vanilla compatibility.

 

Honestly, being a big fan of HR 1 and 2 myself, I think that nowadays very few people are really waiting for a possible Hell Revealed 3 because expectations have changed. When I read reviews about HR, I tend to read negative reviews more than positive ones (especially about the 2). HR is more of a niche than anything else today. I don't think there is any point in bringing the series up to date. It belongs to the past and will have served as an inspiration for many designers! I would hardly see today a Requiem 2 or a Memento Mori 3 in the same way.

 

After that, the wad looks nice to play and I think it can claim to be "HR-inspired" though. like many other wads!

 

Lastly, on a personal note, I consider Kama Sutra by Gusta and Method as an unofficial HR3 thanks to the massive use of stock textures, its gameplay tending towards the slaughter as well as its vanilla compatibility while offering better and a lot more memorable sceneries and visuals. Also it was designed for "HR-skilled" players. :p
 

Edited by Roofi

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This looks like a Plutonia sequel based on the screenshots. If it was me I would have leaned into HR's rubbish (by today's standards) aesthetics; I'd have thought Doomer Boards, of all places, could have got some comedy value out of that. I haven't played it yet but I'm hoping the gameplay is as unrefined as previous hell revealds, at least.

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I feel like people are overlooking the fact that this project is not called "Hell Revealed 3".

 

It is actually "Doomer Boards Project 41: Hell Revealed III, Part 1" which seems like an awfully large distinction to me.

 

(For the record, I rolled my eyes pretty hard at "Misri Halek 2", which was otherwise a perfectly fine map.)

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18 minutes ago, Salt-Man Z said:

I feel like people are overlooking the fact that this project is not called "Hell Revealed 3".

 

It is actually "Doomer Boards Project 41: Hell Revealed III, Part 1" which seems like an awfully large distinction to me.

 

(For the record, I rolled my eyes pretty hard at "Misri Halek 2", which was otherwise a perfectly fine map.)

 

The finished megaWAD is Hell Revealed 3 and the DBP format was used last month to start working towards a full 32 map megaWAD. It will resume development in the future "soon." So in the meantime feedback on helping build the Hell Revealed 3 you want to see or making a map for it yourself would be much appreciated :D

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Map01 - I don't know what is the bigger shock, the fact this map didn't kill me (Hell revealed name revoked!!!) or the author of this map. It is from a visual point of view very clean. The gameplay is pretty solid once you take away the lower than expected difficulty. A short and very well calibrated opener.

 

Map02 - In all honestly this map needs to be looked at properly and have the health and ammo balance seriously adjusted. I left the map with several health pick ups, shell boxes, rockets and the freebie soulsphere because I did not need them. Minus this the map looks fine and is well designed, it just needs the ammo and health necessary, not the glut that is on offer here.

 

Map03 - Back to something more calibrated in terms of ammo, however you should still be fine even if you shoot like a stormtrooper. The main difficulty here is the lack of armour and as such chaingunners and mid-tiers become a serious threat and yes I died a couple of times here. The secrets felt almost tagged on at the end here in the sense that they are almost impossible to miss, yet somehow felt like they served no purpose to pistol starters. 

 

Overall first impressions - The colours on display here are reminiscent of the second Hell revealed with the orange/brown hues dominating, I actually dig the visual style of the three maps I have played. However the difficulty is closer to your standard modern PWad rather than its potential source material. This may very well change and of course the first HR isn't difficult on the most part for the first ten maps (Apart from the occasional dickish move). The second map needs some serious re-balancing as it stands. I think Roofi has a point of calling out the notion that maybe Hell revealed 3 should be vanilla compatible, I think it is a branch off a path that actually started with Plutonia and continued with Kama Sutra/Speed of Doom/Sunlust (Megawads with two mappers), as such it feels right to keep the strict guidelines and old school feel rather than the progression above where each megawad upped the ante in terms of mechanics, difficulty and level of polish.

Anyway, hopefully I will be able to play more of this (time pending) and the best of luck on branching out into the realms of a full 32 map megawad.

 

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Continuing on;

 

Map04 - Not a fan of this one, I guess this one felt more old school than previous maps. However the combat was on the whole less engaging with the initial rocky scenes disappearing into a rather bland brown brick fortress that doesn't have the lighting of other colours that made the previous maps pop. The gameplay felt rather forced as the layout of mostly corridors really inhibits good combat design. Ammo is again pretty plentiful on the whole and health is fairly well balanced, however this is the weakest entry so far.

 

Map05 - Nice sense of spectacle with that enormous tower in the centre. The initial skirmishes are pretty fun to getting the blue key and the big moshpit with the lowering walls was probably the highlight. However the later stages were less convincing, the marble platform and the following towering perimeter are too demon heavy (no threat and a time/ammo sink) and the final fights were pretty easy to beat and not particularly fun. The perimeter fight probably needs a rethink and the fight at the top of the platform can be cheesed easily so again a rethink might be needed.

 

Map06 - Back to a tighter and more plutonia-esque setting. This was probably the most enjoyable of the three, plenty of tight encounters in here but I am surprised that the hammer down at the end wasn't harder. Still it was quite a ride and the easier impression was probably due to getting the secret BFG. Again this map is probably a little too generous with ammo and power-ups. 

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I'm through MAP08 now and I echo Cannonball's complaints about ammo/HP (especially HP). The worst offender is easily MAP08's red key fight. It's something like 4 cyberdemons and maybe 10 barons and there are five megaspheres and at least 600 cells. You're most likely walking in fully stacked too which makes it even more ridiculous. I'm no map designer but 2 megaspheres on opposite sides of the arena there should be plenty even if you get particularly unlucky with infighting or pathing.

 

My other major complaint is that a lot of the set piece fights and traps feel unfinished. You'll grab an important item or hit a switch and be met with 5 enemies when the arena seems intended to hold double or even triple that. There's a blue switch in a cave (can't recall the map) that's clearly signaling a big ambush and I was met with...3 spiders and maybe 5 hell knights? With 20+ rockets (I've been flush with rockets in every level) and tons of room to move that's more akin to a shooting gallery which is not what the level geometry was hinting at.

 

I'll reiterate that I am enjoying myself but this first set of levels has none of the indiscriminate sadism the series is known for.

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Map07 - There is a real dark and sinister mood going through this, it is a shame that this never really materialises in the gameplay. Again the ambushes were a little on the easy side, mostly again due to the abundance of resources handed to you. There are a few nice encountered sprinkled through this, including the second hub that gets locked in after using the red key. However again this is one that could use a little more threat and a little less health/ammo.

 

Map08 - This one looks like a scaled down early Sunder entry. Obviously the visuals are top notch. This one actually has some teeth to the encouters though the megasphere fetish is a little over the top here. There are a few issues, firstly there are some completely useless monsters in this one, caged cacodemons and a pain elemental in the central area that can't do a thing. The blocking lines on the pain elemental need removing and the cacos swapped (An archvile could be used here I think).

The red key room is a little ridiculous (Reminds me of AV Map16 but replacing the invulnerability with several megaspheres. I can understand that an encounter like this can go wrong quite quickly, if that is the case then maybe a rethink on the encounter in general.

Gripes aside, the blue/yellow key fights are some of the best in this wad so far.

 

Map09 - The toughest map so far and the first you could call a proper slugfest. Again though the resources provided are too much for the opposition you get here, though balancing this one will be tougher given the rather open layout and as such infighting could vary from playthrough to playthrough. However I was expecting something to happen after all three keys were picked up, but alas I was left to stroll to the exit (That I managed to break the bars that you need the keys for) unopposed. The toughest fight was the mass of revenants that pour out when from the area that allows you access to the blue key. Luckily I found one of the invulnerability secrets to mop that up. Despite similar complaints I really enjoyed this one.

 

Overall - This was on the most part a very enjoyable set of maps to playthrough and in general presented a solid to high quality experience. However this did lack that sadist touch, though for the most part this was due to the player being over-indulged in resources rather than encounter designs. Still there were some signs that the mappers were willing to shake off the shackles and properly torment the player. 

Favourite maps - 03/08/09

Honourable mentions - 01/06

Maps that need work - 02 (Ammo balance), 05 (Encounter design in places), 07 (Both resoruce/encounters)

Maps I didn't like - 04 (Too corridor heavy for my liking and that really hurts the gameplay).

 

Hope this is of some use to 40oz and the rest of the DBP crew.

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