What do you think is the worst Enemy in Doom II?

[DoomPlayer00]

Worst design wise:

Secret enemies (SS & Keen) and Spider Mastermind. SS soldiers feel very out place unless the map is going for a WW2 aesthetic and Keen is nothing more than a killable trigger. Spider Mastermind, while good in concept, just falls apart in-game. It's hard to use in a map due to its large size and it doesn't pose a large threat when faced alone. Only map where I've seen SM used well is Back to Saturn X Episode 2's last level's secret arena, where the player faces 4 of them along with some other monsters.

 

Worst/most annoying to fight as in the one monster that always gives me trouble:

Revenants. I don't understand why the mapping community is so goddamn obsessed with these things. Not only do Revenants fire homing projectiles, (something I absolutely HATE in video games) but they can also do ridiculous amount of damage for being a mid-tier enemy.

Now, in original Doom 2 they weren't too bad as they were used pretty sparingly. But nowadays they're almost like the only enemy in some wads. When 60 out of your 100 placed enemies in a tight corridor map are Revenants, I just lose all interest in finishing the map or wad.

[Krenium]

All enemies are great, but the one I personally find the most annoying is spectres. They always make you 0.000001 seconds late for breaking LOS with an archvile blast.

[baja blast rd.]

All the standard monsters are at least okay. Some games have a clear albatross, but in Doom, if I had to do that whole tier thing, I'd have a few monsters as S tier, and then nearly all the rest either A or B tier. 

 

At the very bottom of the B tier would be the baron, whose bulkiness and simple attack makes it inflexible, but it still has its uses in cramped combat and slaughter encounters where it can be pretty fun. In the C tier would be the spider mastermind, which is also inflexible and has odd weaknesses due to its huge hitbox, but looks cool and is fun to see every now and then. Then I'd also have the spectre; I mostly don't enjoy fighting these outside of very limited scenarios.

 

I think pain elementals (A-) are cool -- my own practice is to use these either sparingly or really pile them on in one or two encounters in a map. Lost soul cleanup in every other fight can get tedious, but used tactically in low numbers to draw out specific actions they can be fun, as can be a ridiculous number of them that overwhelms you in a low number of selective fights through a wad, dannebubinga-style. Lost souls used on their own (B-) aren't so bad but could be a lot better -- I find their death sound and animation relatively ungratifying, especially compared to all the others that are good at that. I would have revenants as one of the S-tiers and archviles as a good contender for #1 overall. :> 

 

As others have said, usage matters a lot; even the least flexible monsters can be used in intelligent, creative, fun ways. And even my favorites can have their effects diminished by overreliance; variety is the spice of life. So I don't find the "better to worse" hierarchy that constructive. But it's fair to identify ways enemies can be better at their role or be more flexible. The shotgunner is a decent monster for example, but dropping half the shells and having a smaller damage range would probably improve its general use.  

 

On 11/11/2021 at 5:44 AM, Yumheart said:

You're not supposed to dodge them, the purpose of Aracnotrons is to make you either duck into cover or prioritize them and force them into a pain state so they stop shooting you or just hinder your ability to change strafing directions. 

 

Re this convo, arachnotrons aren't too tough to dodge. Mostly just need to get the hang of making smaller dodging motions (tapping the movement keys is the usual way). This video shows what I mean (don't have to always do that, but mixing it in will prevent them from automatically running you off into cover or walls or forcing you to weave through the stream as much). 

 

Spoiler

 

My favorite arachnotron use in general might be low numbers of long-distance snipers that the layout has you meeting up with later up close. It can be a fun threat to keep track of while playing, and their stream emanating from afar and stretching all the way across looks pretty cool, when the arachnotron itself is like a blip in the distance.

[Christian Ck.]

When playing original levels, the pain elementals. It's annoying, a bullet sponge and without a lost soul limit an absolute nightmare.

When playing user levels, archviles because no one knows how to use them properly and think putting 5 in one room with very little cover is deemed challanging and not cheap design.

[Yumheart]

5 hours ago, rd. said:

Re this convo, arachnotrons aren't too tough to dodge. Mostly just need to get the hang of making smaller dodging motions (tapping the movement keys is the usual way). This video shows what I mean (don't have to always do that, but mixing it in will prevent them from automatically running you off into cover or walls or forcing you to weave through the stream as much). 

 

  Hide contents

 

My favorite arachnotron use in general might be low numbers of long-distance snipers that the layout has you meeting up with later up close. It can be a fun threat to keep track of while playing, and their stream emanating from afar and stretching all the way across looks pretty cool, when the arachnotron itself is like a blip in the distance.

I might've been too imprecise. You are forcing the arachnotron into a pain state to stop it from firing, as opposed to dodging through it's stream of projectiles, which you could do with other monsters, like mancs or revs for example.

[azerty]

I don't really like the spidermastermind. It's hitscan and I think that for a boss he needs way more health. idk if this one counts as it is a doom 1 monster but he still is in doom 2 I guess.

[Azure_Horror]

IMHO, spider masterminds are under-used. Yes, they are clunky and often get stuck in the silliest ways possible, but they still have some interesting traits.

 

First of all, a perched spider mastermind works somewhat like an archvile sniper: it forces the player to move from cover to cover to avoid a dangerous hitscan attack.

And there are some potential reasons to use a mastermind instead of an archvile. Compared to an archvile, spidermastermind brings non-delayed attack and heavy resistance to rockets.

 

Secondly, a spider mastermind presents a potent hazard (as opposed to outright deadly threat). Yes, like damaging floor!

The spider threatens constant damage, and requires a noticeable amount of commitment to kill. At the very least, you need to spare two BFG shots, and be ready to get close to an angry hitscanner. Alternatively, you need a lot of time to fight a Spiderdemon from cover. Sometimes, you just do not a luxury to spare time/ammo on a 3000 hp monster.

 

And thirdly, spider masterminds are decent secondary threats in big fights. Their hitscan attack is dangerous, they are relatively tanky (if the BFG is present) or even very tanky (if there is no BFG), and they are also occupy a lot of space. Seriously, even a stuck spiderdemon restricts combat space by its sheer physical size alone!

 

On 11/16/2021 at 4:42 PM, Endy McGufin said:

When playing original levels, the pain elementals. It's annoying, a bullet sponge and without a lost soul limit an absolute nightmare.

 

When playing user levels, archviles because no one knows how to use them properly and think putting 5 in one room with very little cover is deemed challanging and not cheap design.

What WADs have such archvile placement? I am legitimately curious. I do not remember the last time I met a truly cheap archvile encounter.

Archviles almost never appear in large groups, unless we are talking about highly lethal challenge mapsets (basically, Sunlust-tier and harder). And when groups of archviles do appear in WAD, there is often a lot of cover.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:08 AM, DoomPlayer00 said:

Worst design wise:

Secret enemies (SS & Keen) and Spider Mastermind. SS soldiers feel very out place unless the map is going for a WW2 aesthetic and Keen is nothing more than a killable trigger. Spider Mastermind, while good in concept, just falls apart in-game. It's hard to use in a map due to its large size and it doesn't pose a large threat when faced alone. Only map where I've seen SM used well is Back to Saturn X Episode 2's last level's secret arena, where the player faces 4 of them along with some other monsters.

 

Worst/most annoying to fight as in the one monster that always gives me trouble:

Revenants. I don't understand why the mapping community is so goddamn obsessed with these things. Not only do Revenants fire homing projectiles, (something I absolutely HATE in video games) but they can also do ridiculous amount of damage for being a mid-tier enemy.

Now, in original Doom 2 they weren't too bad as they were used pretty sparingly. But nowadays they're almost like the only enemy in some wads. When 60 out of your 100 placed enemies in a tight corridor map are Revenants, I just lose all interest in finishing the map or wad.

I try not to join Doom hate trains, but having a million revenants fight the player, with no other enemies is just stupid. I remember playing Sunder a long time ago when I was not nearly as good as Doom as I am now. I quit on Map02. I had no ammo, and there were like 300 monsters left (I may be misremembering). All of them were revenants. I said "this is remarkably stupid, I quit."

 

Looking back, it's clear you're supposed to keep the Cyber demons alive to infight, but still. Fighting only one enemy is grindy, frustrating, and boring. I'll have to come back to it and see if it's as dumb as I remember it to be.

[Christian Ck.]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:41 PM, Azure_Horror said:

What WADs have such archvile placement? I am legitimately curious. I do not remember the last time I met a truly cheap archvile encounter.

Archviles almost never appear in large groups, unless we are talking about highly lethal challenge mapsets (basically, Sunlust-tier and harder). And when groups of archviles do appear in WAD, there is often a lot of cover.

Can't remember exaclty. I know it was in one of those praised Slaughter maps. Maybe hell revealed 2 or something but that's a given I guess. Generally in most recent cacoawards and wads archviles are used extremly boring and more so like a bullet sponge with a deadly hitscan attack (Like a smaller mastermind) and not like something you should take priority in killing because they might ressurect dead enemies and give you a hard time. Maybe I'm just still mad at how the comunity and games have turned out idk. Didn't play the game since Eternal came out and I lost all interest and passion for doom.

[TuomasGaming]

On 11/11/2021 at 9:23 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I'll apply your critique of the Arachnotron (comparing him to the Mastermind) to the Baron of Hell (comparing him to the Hell Knight) in order to show why I think he is much worse for mostly the same reasons:

 

Arachnotron:

-500 HP

-Sprite has details that separate it from the Mastermind

-Much smaller than Mastermind

-Different attack than Mastermind with unique projectile

 

Baron of Hell:

-1000 HP

-Attack is exactly the same as Hell Knight with the same projectile

-Sprite is literally a recolor of a Hell Knight

-Same size as Hell Knight

 

IMO the Baron is a much lazier enemy simply because it has no unique attributes and only exists as a boring ammo check, as to where the SMM and Arachnotron are completely different.

You do realize the Hell Knight was made after the baron? The Hell Knight is the reskin.

[Hans Grosse]

Haven't played DOOM in a while but I can tell you that I remembered getting annoyed by the Cyberdemon, Archvile and the Spectre (Sometimes).

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

7 hours ago, TuomasGaming said:

You do realize the Hell Knight was made after the baron? The Hell Knight is the reskin.

I'm aware, obviously there are no HK's in OG DOOM. I was just comparing their functionality/appearance. What I should have said is "their sprites are exactly the same" as compared to the Aracho/SMM. Ignoring which one came first, one of them is still simply a recolor of the other. It's hard to even think of them as separate enemies because of this.

 

Personally I think the Baron works fine in DOOM due to its rarity as an enemy, but after introducing the Hell Knight (which works well as a standard mid-tier enemy), the Baron simply become a boring ammo check with nothing to make it stand out, which limits potential variety. The same goes for the spectre, which is another enemy that could have at least used a different sprite. The SMM and Arachno are completely different enemies, and at least some effort was made in making their sprites different.

[TheFocus]

honestly the imp is my least favorite.just kinda boring.

[robocaco]

Lost Souls are my least favourite if there are a lot in a small setting but overall I think the Archvile or Revenant are my least favourite.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I don't think anything in Doom qualifies as a bullet sponge. Nothing in this game takes minutes to kill. Sure cyberdemon needs some time to kill but it is a joke using BFG/Plasma which are almost always found before Cyberdemons start appearing. The real problem is all the maps with way too many higher tier monsters warping people's perspective on the monsters.

[Jacek Bourne]

On 11/30/2021 at 4:14 AM, Pegg said:

I don't think anything in Doom qualifies as a bullet sponge. Nothing in this game takes minutes to kill. Sure cyberdemon needs some time to kill but it is a joke using BFG/Plasma which are almost always found before Cyberdemons start appearing. The real problem is all the maps with way too many higher tier monsters warping people's perspective on the monsters.

There’s no such thing as too many high tier enemies as long as those enemies are used effectively.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

1 hour ago, Jacek Bourne said:

There’s no such thing as too many high tier enemies as long as those enemies are used effectively.

And that's a very blurred line that's very easy to step over and turn a map into a slog.

[Kinetic]

Worst enemy is the baron because it's an imp with 1000 health and they just stink. No special qualities like it being a flying monster, having a non-basic projectile/shooting pattern, resurrecting ability, etc. He's just a tanky guy that soaks up your ammo without being that dangerous, which is annoying for UV-Max people like myself.

 

Close 2nd place is the Spider Mastermind, mainly because they're too big to be useful/not extremely annoying in a lot of situations (hitscan is unavoidable damage). They're basically only viable in large arenas because of their size, and large arenas typically require large open spaces which sucks badly because they're a hitscan-spamming enemy, making you take unavoidable damage when you traverse the large open spaces. They're also really annoying to kill due to their large health, so often trying to kill them you end up risking a large chunk of health (BFG rushing them) or you have to peek-a-boo shoot them, which blows really hard in terms of engagement.

 

3rd place can go to the arachnotron (because they're also too big to be useful a lot of the time) or the spectre.

 

Now that I think about it maybe the mastermind and baron should be switched, the mastermind is just downright annoying and almost always unusable. IoS would be #1 but I don't even really consider it to be an enemy

[JharedPH]

Arch-villes are too annoying

[Maes]

The garon of hell.

[Kain D.]

Lost souls.

[doomfan/mokey show fan]

chaingunners because they cock their gun at the end of the firing because its actually a chain gun shotgun