Explicitly allowing a list of mods

[Lucky_Edie]

I'd like to see changes be integrated into dsda-doom and enforced that way. 

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, Maribo said:

Largely depends on what community you're talking about. I passively participate in a decent chunk of speedrunning/challenge communities and the community rules on stuff like this can vary wildly, but the general trend has been that accessibility and runner health modifications are becoming more welcome.

It never is about pushing opinion as fact, ofcourse. I prefaced my point to highlight what my view and position is: Most of my impression is from this sub-forum here and historical opinion.  That's as valid a view as anyone elses.

 

Having said that, there are two sides to each coin. I can understand that multiple people would want for mods to be included. This is exactly why i postulated two counter points to that effect, citing either space issues or user-unfriendliness as a result.

 

QoL improvements however should naturally be considered as long as there is no actual advantage to be gained when it comes to player performance. In that, i agree with your view.

 

1 hour ago, Shepardus said:

I don't think any of the suggested "allowed mods" would cause desyncs if they weren't loaded (and I'd be opposed if they did), so they'd play back just fine without the wad. And if the idea is to allow a fixed set of mods, then we wouldn't need to attach them to the demos, there would presumably be some source where you can grab them all together as a one-time deal (and if it were bundled with dsda-doom itself, that would effectively make it a feature of the port).

I feel this creates a few dependencies:

• Players need to be aware that in order to view this demo, an external pack is needed. That to me seems counterproductive because the whole idea of sharing demo is that they rely on the source port and a specific complevel in-port alone.
• If bundled with DSDA-Doom, its size would increase and could be so exponentially depending on what mod is used. If its things like colorblind palette swaps, that wouldn't add much to it. But full on mods? And then there is whether or not Kraflab would want that.

Mind you, i am not opposed against what is a curated list of mods to gain better accessibility for players and runners alike.

[Andromeda]

1 minute ago, Redneckerz said:

• Players need to be aware that in order to view this demo, an external pack is needed. That to me seems counterproductive because the whole idea of sharing demo is that they rely on the source port and a specific complevel in-port alone.

Note that the idea would be that such mods are not needed to play back the demo, DSDA-Doom ignores any files that are not present in the viewer's computer. As such, seeing that these would be changes unrelated to the engine behaviour or the level(s) being played, the demo should sync just fine without loading the additional files.

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

As someone with no say in the Demo running community besides encyclopedic content, i would be against that idea. It is my understanding that the demo/speedrunning community tends to favor universal grounds with equal settings so that there are no variable parameters required which would have to be specified for the demo and noted as such.

I'm going to be blunt here... You did not understand the purpose of this discussion to begin with... The point isn't, never was, and never will be, to have some manner of "open door policy" for WADs or DEHs  loaded additionally...  The fundamental idea is to have one sanctioned list of WADs/DEHs available to everybody who wants some convenience that we can agree is fair game to provide... Universal grounds are implicit due to the very basic idea behind this discussion.

 

If there was any reason to believe that the files in question -- ones that would be curated, by the way -- would cause desyncs, then this discussion wouldn't even take place in the first place...

 

And why are you even chiming in here..? You aren't affected by anything we're discussing here beyond adding a few lines of text to your encyclopedia, perhaps... What's in it for you..?

1 hour ago, Shepardus said:

And if the idea is to allow a fixed set of mods, then we wouldn't need to attach them to the demos, there would presumably be some source where you can grab them all together as a one-time deal (and if it were bundled with dsda-doom itself, that would effectively make it a feature of the port).

There is no reason to assume that this list of curated files would be a one-time-deal, since, as it says in the OP, those will be available either as a direct download or a link featured on the DSDA, so people can take what they think they need instead of having to deal with files they're not interested in. If anything, a "bundle" would at most be optional convenience for those who want one link to grab "all the files"...

 

I also don't get behind this idea of bundling it with DSDA-Doom, because adding another file to the list would mean having to "update" the source port's download link every time (and we don't know what the future holds), whereas adding another link to the DSDArchive is way more convenient for everybody involved... In other words the files would have to be available separately anyway, so it might as well be the way to go right off the bat...

 

Furthermore, I don't see how mere formalities such as this are in any way interesting to discuss at this point....

Edited November 5, 2021 by Nine Inch Heels

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

This is one of those lines of thinking I will never be able to understand...

 

That gamma-correction is not only available to everybody because it's already baked into the source port, it's also 100% irrelevant to this discussion, because it's not a WAD or DEH that is being loaded alongside something else and, therefore, does not need to be "approved"...

 

The point of this discussion is primarily to determine if people would appreciate having a safe source for "QOL WADs" in the form of the DSDA, from where they can get "QOL WADs" that are perfectly fine to use when recording demos...

 

Second point on the agenda is "Which types of QOL WADs" can be agreed upon/are desirable, so that considerations as to which ones will be approved and hosted can be made...

 

So, in the interest of those who are actually able and willing to discuss the topic at hand, I'd think we'd all be grateful if discussions could be limited to those aforementioned 2 points moving forward. If you want to discuss the merits and pitfalls of source port features, or setups you use as a band aid at your own discretion, then I suggest you do that elsewhere...

I see where he's coming from honestly. As someone who plays with the OpenGL renderer, with sector light mode GZDoom and gamma correction level 0, I'm obviously at a disadvantage compared to most runners who use gamma 4 as I can't see shit even in slightly dark areas. But I'm not complaining about it, as it's my choice first and foremost.

 

However, you're right in that since it's a feature present in the vanilla executable, it makes no sense to restrict it.

[ChopBlock223]

Blood colors seem like they would be insignificant in any practical advantage, blue contrasting against red on a Caco potentially, but I honestly feel that the higher resolutions people play with now confers a bigger advantage, particularly with high resolutions making the Specter easier to see (he's more difficult to see in 320x240).

Potentially someone could make blood bright white and fullbright, and that would be a cheat, but also one which isn't easy to detect.

 

The question of the sound of the plasma is interesting, because I fully believe that it can cause genuine discomfort for some people, but at the same time a toned down sound would confer an advantage in situational awareness, not having it drown out other audio I think isn't insignificant.

[GarrettChan]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I see where he's coming from honestly. As someone who plays with the OpenGL renderer, with sector light mode GZDoom and gamma correction level 0, I'm obviously at a disadvantage compared to most runners who use gamma 4 as I can't see shit even in slightly dark areas. But I'm not complaining about it, as it's my choice first and foremost.

How about someone plays with GL Renderer + Shaders + Gamma 4 :P

(note: Shaders Gamma goes up to 31)

 

One thing for real, I personally hope GL Renderer is not a thing so everybody is on the same ground, but it's there already... to late.

[TimeOfDeath666]

I say keep the rule as is. If someone prefers playing with their modifications or has a hearing problem or vision problem or whatever, that's their problem. I recorded demos for 5 years with no sound. Adapt.

[Master Medi]

It would be very nice to have the loud noises be replaced honestly, I personally had to only deal with Plasma Rifle and I found that waaaaaaay too loud. I'm all up for that, regarding the other options I saw I'm indifferent, probably won't use them

[Jacek Bourne]

1 hour ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

I say keep the rule as is. If someone prefers playing with their modifications or has a hearing problem or vision problem or whatever, that's their problem. I recorded demos for 5 years with no sound. Adapt.

I absolutely agree.

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Note that the idea would be that such mods are not needed to play back the demo, DSDA-Doom ignores any files that are not present in the viewer's computer. As such, seeing that these would be changes unrelated to the engine behaviour or the level(s) being played, the demo should sync just fine without loading the additional files.

Yes, i get that. But if we were to introduce a curated list, that would require either additional downloads if they aren't bundled with DSDA, additional notes in the .txt file, or an increased file size if they were bundled with DSDA.

 

I don't think this is an unreasonable view to have. I am sure that seasoned demo-players would be aware and take it as it is, but i suppose one should consider my view that of an outsider who wants to join into demo running/speedrunning.

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I'm going to be blunt here...

Please spare yourself from being blunt and just be reasonable. Being blunt helps nobody, especially if you are going to ask things i have answered already.

Having said that:

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You did not understand the purpose of this discussion to begin with... The point isn't, never was, and never will be, to have some manner of "open door policy" for WADs or DEHs  loaded additionally...  The fundamental idea is to have one sanctioned list of WADs/DEHs available to everybody who wants some convenience that we can agree is fair game to provide... Universal grounds are implicit due to the very basic idea behind this discussion.

I am not in disagreement with this. I do see some pitfalls, which i have outlined previously, so to avoid repetition i'll abstain from this.

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

You aren't affected by anything we're discussing here beyond adding a few lines of text to your encyclopedia, perhaps... What's in it for you..?

Everyone's encyclopedia, i should add, including DSDA. Demo/speedrunning gets little attention because it is a community within a community (Feelings-wise). To an outsider, it may not always be clear what are the big things that run the show. For instance, DRE/XDRE is not featured in there, but i feel they should.

 

Tools related to that cause or to improve player skill, suchas BFGHack, atleast are now mentioned.

 

As said above, i am sharing a different view than you or a speedrunner would, and my general perspective is that whatever issue/question that arises, should be taken from multiple points of view. I am just dispensing one such point of view.

 

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I see where he's coming from honestly. As someone who plays with the OpenGL renderer, with sector light mode GZDoom and gamma correction level 0, I'm obviously at a disadvantage compared to most runners who use gamma 4 as I can't see shit even in slightly dark areas.

That is one such application. And not all OpenGL renderers are created equal, aswell.

[Daerik]

1 hour ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

I say keep the rule as is. If someone prefers playing with their modifications or has a hearing problem or vision problem or whatever, that's their problem. I recorded demos for 5 years with no sound. Adapt.

 

2 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

The question of the sound of the plasma is interesting, because I fully believe that it can cause genuine discomfort for some people, but at the same time a toned down sound would confer an advantage in situational awareness, not having it drown out other audio I think isn't insignificant.

 

Any modification is ultimately not going to provide enough of an advantage to allow a bad player to get an exit, or beat a better players time. Doom speedrunning also isn't prestigious enough to justify keeping it harmful to run in any capacity. Nobody is going to think less of your run because you used quieterplasma.wad, and this notion that runners should stick to standards that were defined many years ago is pointless considering computer hardware and peripherals have massively improved in that time.

 

24 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Yes, i get that. But if we were to introduce a curated list, that would require either additional downloads if they aren't bundled with DSDA, additional notes in the .txt file, or an increased file size if they were bundled with DSDA.

 

So? If someone wants to reduce the sound of their plasma gun, finding that isn't going to be that difficult because there's a discord filled with people who will throw a link to them at whoever asks

 

Additional notes in the text file for who?

 

24 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Demo/speedrunning gets little attention

 

Wot. There's plenty of runs being streamed both on twitch and in discord servers, and plenty of discussion also happening in both places. In what world do you figure speedrunning is getting little attention?

[Andromeda]

7 minutes ago, Daerik said:

Wot. There's plenty of runs being streamed both on twitch and in discord servers, and plenty of discussion also happening in both places. In what world do you figure speedrunning is getting little attention?

Probably he means compared to the top speedrunning games.

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, Daerik said:

Any modification is ultimately not going to provide enough of an advantage to allow a bad player to get an exit, or beat a better players time.

Can't really agree with this. Just like the run I posted yesterday. I got a 1:31 for UV Max on HR2 Map01. Believe it or not, without in-game restart, I can't get this 1:31 simply because a few seconds or resetting will cost a lot of time and make me losing patience (despite I'm quite patient to begin with).

 

While JCD got his 1:32 on vanilla DooM2 v1.9, this means JCD is definitely way stronger than me. Also, yeah, I do devalue my run because I used in-game resets as it provides a lot of convenience to me, not to mention my computer actually lags if I restart PrBoom+ too many times. I always believe QoL improvements like in-game resets definitely push some records further, in an indirect kind of way, especially those short RNG heavy runs.

 

Another example is my Plutonia Map01 1:54 took me 5000+ attempts, and each reset takes 3 seconds, this already saved me 15000+ seconds. That's like a net 4 hour gain, so yeah.

 

Though, I only apply these to my own runs. I never look down on anybody who is using in-game resets, and in-game resets are widely accepted now anyway, so I won't say too much.

Edited November 5, 2021 by GarrettChan

[Redneckerz]

57 minutes ago, Daerik said:

So?

To a newcomer, this is not userfriendly. Yes, there are discords, but the fact you yourself are already saying that this hypothetical person needs to find something (just that it isn't difficult) is a pitfall by itself.*

 

You aren't doing that now, but you are introducing it later down the line.

Quote

Additional notes in the text file for who?

For players who wish to experience things the way they are intended to.

Quote

Wot. There's plenty of runs being streamed both on twitch and in discord servers, and plenty of discussion also happening in both places. In what world do you figure speedrunning is getting little attention?

 

48 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Probably he means compared to the top speedrunning games.

This. And attention regarding the encyclopedia because that community is targetting a niche. A discussion on whether or not speedrunning in general is a niche or is a mainstream thing would be good material for a new thread though.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Redneckerz : Clarify

[David Asaad]

Bruh.. I wanted to remove the death scream sound and u guys wouldnt let me. Thats something that only makes a difference after the run is already dead and now ur willing to change stuff that makes a difference while the run is still going?…wth?

 

the whole argument was that u dont know what my nodeathscream.wad does. So what ur allowing with this is just a list of filenames that can show up on the footer. 

[GoneAway]

29 minutes ago, David Asaad said:

Bruh.. I wanted to remove the death scream sound and u guys wouldnt let me.

That's because it's against the rules. This discussion is about whether or not those rules should change, which I assume is what you want and is partially being raised because of your request, so I'm not sure why you're complaining :^)

 

This wouldn't be filename based, it would be based on the lump data itself.

[David Asaad]

no its not what I want..not anymore. I want everyone held to the same standard

[BlueThunder]

4 minutes ago, David Asaad said:

no its not what I want..not anymore. I want everyone held to the same standard

I believe your a bit confused about this whole discussion 

[David Asaad]

the standard that I WAS held to. Does that make more sense?

[omx32x]

kinda off topic but i always wondered if it would be possible to create a source port where we could use non gameplay altering mods without actually altering the game and causing desyncs

 

kinda like how there are many mods on minecraft that just show you things like armor durability or make the lighting be beautiful that doesnt change the game itself so you can still play on servers without any desyncs and advantages over other people

[El Juancho]

24 minutes ago, David Asaad said:

no its not what I want..not anymore. I want everyone held to the same standard

Why shouldn't the community have legal mods just because you weren't allowed to use one of your mods before?

 

This discussion serves to discuss which mods could be legal in the future.

[omx32x]

17 minutes ago, David Asaad said:

the standard that I WAS held to. Does that make more sense?

i understand where you are coming from but rules change over time

 

this could avoid situations like what happened to you in the future

[HackNeyed]

5 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

The question of the sound of the plasma is interesting, because I fully believe that it can cause genuine discomfort for some people, but at the same time a toned down sound would confer an advantage in situational awareness, not having it drown out other audio I think isn't insignificant.

 

I think it could still drown out other sounds. For my tinnitus it's not always a matter of loudness but the type of sound. The plasma and chaingun frequencies are too high and prolonged. I can listen to a very loud bass or mid range but even a reasonably loud high can be very painful. I haven't measured the dB but perkristian's high resolution Doom sound effects pack or a PSXDoom.wad I found all sound roughly as loud but are far, far more comfortable. Even PrBoom+UM's lowpass_filter by itself helps a fair bit for the Plasma, Chaingun, Revenant and Icon of Sin death as well as other sounds across the whole game. For me a smoother sound is better then a quieter sound.

[GoneAway]

8 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

kinda off topic but i always wondered if it would be possible to create a source port where we could use non gameplay altering mods without actually altering the game and causing desyncs

This is already how it is for every relevant source port.

[omx32x]

21 minutes ago, kraflab said:

This is already how it is for every relevant source port.

just to be clear im not talking about modifying the wad file i was thinking about something like the texture packs on minecraft that can be applied any time without any impact on gameplay

[GoneAway]

5 minutes ago, omalefico32x said:

just to be clear im not talking about modifying the wad file i was thinking about something like the texture packs on minecraft that can be applied any time without any impact on gameplay

Yes...that's how it already is for every port.

[BigBoy91]

Sounds like a major headache to me. I'd just keep the rule as is. I'm with TimeOfDeath666.

[GoneAway]

1 hour ago, CleaverHeaver said:

Sounds like a major headache to me.

Could you explain what would make it a headache?

[dew]

2 hours ago, David Asaad said:

the standard that I WAS held to. Does that make more sense?

 

6 hours ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

I say keep the rule as is. If someone prefers playing with their modifications or has a hearing problem or vision problem or whatever, that's their problem. I recorded demos for 5 years with no sound. Adapt.

If your current opinion is only based on wanting revenge on those in charge of upholding the rules, I recommend you chill out. I had to sit out IWAD running for nearly a decade, because I just couldn't do it in dosbox. Didn't make me oppose the rule reform out of spite. This isn't grievance olympics, this is about evolving speedrunning reasonably.