Explicitly allowing a list of mods

[BigBoy91]

26 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Could you explain what would make it a headache?

Just keeping track of all the mods, etc etc. There are most likely gonna be people that expect you to cater to them as well. Just my two cents! I'm not a programmer or anything by any means, but I'm just thinking of it from an administrative standpoint. I don't necessarily have a problem with mods being used. If it's something you're willing to take on, then more power to ya!

Edited November 5, 2021 by CleaverHeaver

[djnr]

No comment on anything specific, but I would like to mention that I hope anything deemed allowable gets incorporated into dsda-doom and toggleable from the menu. (Just like instant restart button, high res, high framerate, widescreen, advanced/extended HUD, etc.)

[GoneAway]

18 minutes ago, CleaverHeaver said:

Just keeping track of all the mods, etc etc. There are most likely gonna be people that expect you to cater to them as well. Just my two cents! I'm not a programmer or anything by any means, but I'm just thinking of it from an administrative standpoint. I don't necessarily have a problem with mods being used. If it's something you're willing to take on, then more power to ya!

Then why say you're opposed in your original post? :^)

If I didn't want to maintain such a list I wouldn't have made this thread - in practice we're talking about an extremely limited list. If it happens, I would expect there to be fewer than 5 patches.

[BigBoy91]

17 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Then why say you're opposed in your original post? :^)

If I didn't want to maintain such a list I wouldn't have made this thread - in practice we're talking about an extremely limited list. If it happens, I would expect there to be fewer than 5 patches.

This is true! Just thinking of your sanity is all. 😋 Wouldn't wanna have to deal with all the "Why is X allowed by Y isn't?" type posts.

[David Asaad]

1 hour ago, dew said:

 

If your current opinion is only based on wanting revenge on those in charge of upholding the rules, I recommend you chill out. I had to sit out IWAD running for nearly a decade, because I just couldn't do it in dosbox. Didn't make me oppose the rule reform out of spite. This isn't grievance olympics, this is about evolving speedrunning reasonably.

How is that revenge on them? Make them play the game the way theyve been playing for years. Wow that'll teach em

Edited November 5, 2021 by David Asaad

[Luleta]

43 minutes ago, David Asaad said:

How is that revenge on them? Make them play the game the way theyve been playing for years. Wow that'll teach em

i feel like this matter is kinda arbitrary and subjective.

standards change, is widescreen cheating? the original game didn't have such thing. what about higher resolutions? kill counts? exactly where do you draw the line between user friendly and true to the original?

i feel like the main worry should be demo-desyncs and accessibility, stating what gives you an advantage or not is very debatable.

im fine with reaching an agreement but just stating "thats how it's always been" isn't really true.

[Jacek Bourne]

Many of the things currently under inspection like GL lighting, widescreen, and gamma adjustments just to list a few seem more like quality of life improvements than significant advantages. I don't see the point in outlawing them. The only one which I see as a possible significant advantage would be gamma adjustments and lowering loud sounds. Is it really worth it to do all this. As long as demo desyncs do not occur I don't see much of a problem here. Keep things as is.

[Luleta]

is the problem with lowering loud sounds that it would let you hear other quieter sounds? if so, cant the louder sounds override the lower ones? making it so it doesn't do anything but hurt your ears less?

[Daerik]

5 hours ago, David Asaad said:

Bruh.. I wanted to remove the death scream sound and u guys wouldnt let me. Thats something that only makes a difference after the run is already dead and now ur willing to change stuff that makes a difference while the run is still going?…wth?

 

the whole argument was that u dont know what my nodeathscream.wad does. So what ur allowing with this is just a list of filenames that can show up on the footer. 

 

It'll be more than an allowed list of filenames, there are ways to actually check quieterplasma.wad is infact quieterplasma.wad and not cheatervision.wad renamed, which is what the potential concern was back when you were asking about it.

[TimeOfDeath666]

2 hours ago, dew said:

If your current opinion is only based on wanting revenge on those in charge of upholding the rules, I recommend you chill out. I had to sit out IWAD running for nearly a decade, because I just couldn't do it in dosbox. Didn't make me oppose the rule reform out of spite. This isn't grievance olympics, this is about evolving speedrunning reasonably.

No vengeance for me, I just think this is kind of crazy. I mean, if the plasma gun is too loud for someone, then why not just turn down their headphones/speakers? Or try compressing their desktop audio with some software or a usb mixer, etc. For the translucent projectiles in boom compat, I can't remember if I ever even noticed that, but I don't understand why someone would feel the need to use an external wad to make them opaque (no offence vdgg). These things just remind of that guy BloodyAcid who refuses to record without -longtics (no offence to BloodyAcid, but if he played without -longtics for a week or two he'd already be used to it).

[Nine Inch Heels]

37 minutes ago, Luleta said:

is the problem with lowering loud sounds that it would let you hear other quieter sounds? if so, cant the louder sounds override the lower ones? making it so it doesn't do anything but hurt your ears less?

Let it be said once again that any sort of added convenience any given runner will choose to take advantage of -- provided it is approved of -- will invariably lead to some manner of advantage - that's not even a question that is worth asking...

 

The only questions worth asking are:

 

-Which types of QOL improvements would people want to have?

 

-Which of the ones people would like to have can/should be approved of?

 

Any and all concerns about how the respective files will be provided, or whether there is some other band aid solution, or how the source port does "source port things" are not relevant at the moment, unless said concerns are relevant to any of the QOLs anybody here suggests (ie, in the case of music replacements: feasibility, or lack thereof, of catering to everybody's tastes, which would result in a never ending and steadily growing list of files to be tracked)

 

...Which is exactly why I've been against the idea of people just randomly chiming in here in order to discuss matters about which they either know nothing, or " cast votes" on matters they won't ever be affected by... Somebody may find that that's gatekeeping, but the simple fact of the matter is that we don't tell wiki-editors how to edit the wiki, and we don't tell casual players how to do casual things insofar as dictating or voting on future standards is considered... So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that discussions about "speedrunner things" be left to those who are -- or have been -- doing "speedrunner things", it's common decency, plain and simple...

[Xaser]

So, I saw this:

 

 

and thought, "Nice."

 

and then I read the thread,

 

and changed my mind.

[Bdubzzz]

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: none of the sounds in doom have ever bothered me personally but a lot of times I'm not even playing with headphones. Anyway with that said I don't see any issue with an "official allowed list" of mods. If anyone can use them then no1 is at a disadvantage since you choose not to use them. Same goes with gamma or any other way you choose to play. You want to play in  320x200 with gamma 0? Good for you but I actually like having fun while playing the game and if speedrunning was "strict" on all of those settings (gl enforcing that without killing doom speedrunning btw) I personally wouldn't make demos and I bet same goes for a lot of people.

 

Anyway the only Mod I would like to see is the one that changes doomguy's gloves to black. :^) 

 

[Benjogami]

Hmmm couldn't you just edit your iwad if you really wanted some unblessed gfx/sounds? Or will that also be a part of the lump validation? I guess that's kinda cool if you can reliably police all of that stuff.

 

But in that case, you should also police renderers and gamma levels, since those can affect situational awareness to an extent that makes examples like quiet plasma laughable to worry about.

[Spendoragon]

+1 for notransl.deh and a "Ribbiks plasma sound" or something kind of option/integration

colorblind palettes would be cool for accessibility too

[dew]

5 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

Many of the things currently under inspection like GL lighting, widescreen, and gamma adjustments just to list a few seem more like quality of life improvements than significant advantages. I don't see the point in outlawing them. The only one which I see as a possible significant advantage would be gamma adjustments and lowering loud sounds. Is it really worth it to do all this. As long as demo desyncs do not occur I don't see much of a problem here. Keep things as is.

I tried to purge this topic of bullshit, but the damage is already done and it's too intervowen into the thread's fabric. However I can still highlight this gem, this peak of Mt. Stupid. It speaks volumes when one defends widescreen as an innocent QoL feature when it's actually the most consequential ingame advantage introduced in the past decade or so, yet in turn shoots down plasma sound replacement as going too far. And I seriously wonder what's wrong with people who keep bringing up the fucking gamma correction argument after it's been patiently explained that it's in the vanilla game, for crying out loud.

 

This thread is probably a writeoff and the actual debate will happen on discord. A pity.

[Benjogami]

2 minutes ago, dew said:

And I seriously wonder what's wrong with people who keep bringing up the fucking gamma correction argument after it's been patiently explained that it's in the vanilla game, for crying out loud.

Yeah, and editing all of the original gfx and sounds without affecting demo sync is also in the vanilla game, and that's exactly what's being questioned here. And you'll really act like I'm an idiot for bringing it up?

[dew]

7 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

Yeah, and editing all of the original gfx and sounds without affecting demo sync is also in the vanilla game, and that's exactly what's being questioned here. And you'll really act like I'm an idiot for bringing it up?

That's a false equivalence. You can hack up the IWAD to get your desired effect, but gamma is literally an ingame feature and has been used since the game got out.

 

But sure, if you're going to move the goalpost like a bad faith actor and claim nothing can be achieved until literally every vector for cheating is plugged, then I guess this thread is a lost cause.