HeXen without ACS = ?

[DooMBoy]

Just imagine for a moment that HeXen's infamous ACS had never been programmed. This would obviously mean that there would be no ACS more likely than not (IMO). Would HeXen be a better game or worse game without its ACS? Or would it be the same?

[Job]

Pardon my ignorance, but wtf is ACS?

[Naked Snake]

Heh, IMO, it'd probably worse than it already is.

Pardon my ignorance, but wtf is ACS?

ACS is the scripting language that Hexen uses. Words appearing on screen = ACS. Killing a certain enemy makes an item appear = ACS, ect. You can do tons with ACS.

[DooMBoy]

Vulg@r said:

Pardon my ignorance, but wtf is ACS?

ACS is an abbreviation for Action Code Script. It was originally created by Raven Software for use in their game, HeXen, which was released back in '95.

[Job]

Oh. In light of that, I'd have to say that while ACS may enhance, Hexen is just as good without.

[Katarhyne]

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Hexen would have been just another boring Doom clone (minus the whole BALANCE factor) without ACS.

[Job]

Bah. It could be argued both ways. Some people might say, "But look, it's a good game on it's own merits, aside from ACS. It has so many attractive aspects." While others might say, "ACS puts flesh on it's bones and it would be considerably less enjoyable without it."

[Fredrik]

Do you mean without ACS the scripting language, or without any scripting implementation at all?

[stphrz]

Doom > Hexen.

Doom has no ACS.

Ergo, games or levels can be just as good or better without.

Level design is more important than scripts.
Monster placement is more important than scripts.
General atmosphere and appearance is more important that scripts.

If Hexen had been developed without ACS perhaps more effort would have been put into other more important areas. Perhaps a better game would have resulted.

[Job]

______________________________________________________________
stphrz said: Doom > Hexen.

Doom has no ACS.

Ergo, games or levels can be just as good or better without.
______________________________________________________________


I couldn't agree more.

[DooMBoy]

Katarhyne said:

What the fuck is wrong with you people?

Hexen would have been just another boring Doom clone (minus the whole BALANCE factor) without ACS.

I don't think so. Even without ACS, HeXen would have probably still of been quite good IMO.

[Megalyth]

Shush BBG, Hexen kicks ass. :)

I don't think it would have been as immersive. Without ACS, the hub system would be pointless/nonexistant. You can't flip a switch on one map and expect it to do something on another unless you have a script.

[Ichor]

Hexen without ACS = Heretic with hubs
Doom with ACS = ZDoom

ACS gives almost complete control over map making. You can make any number of things happen just with one switch, you can spawn any kind of monster (instead of simply having them teleport in from somewhere else), and you can even make complex puzzles and lighting tricks that were impossible with the original Doom. For instance, my new lighting effect 'discovery' can be easily duplicated with ACS.

[Lüt]

stphrz said:

Doom > Hexen.

Doom has no ACS.

Ergo, games or levels can be just as good or better without.

Level design is more important than scripts.
Monster placement is more important than scripts.
General atmosphere and appearance is more important that scripts.

But, Hexen does have better level design, monster placement and general atmosphere than Doom.

Hexen did have it's fair share of lousy maps, but so did Doom. I have yet to play a more atmospheric set of Doom-engine-based maps than Shadow Wood, and the rest of Hexen's maps aren't far behind that hub.

[Ichor]

I've always thought the Necropolis hub has the best atmosphere, followed very closely by Shadow Wood.

[Darkstalker]

Hex...en ? :P

Seriously, I don't think it would've matter. The game was ok with it's script. If the script didn't existed, I'm pretty sure that they would've find a another way to make events possible.

[zark]

Lüt said:

But, Hexen does have better level design, monster placement and general atmosphere than Doom.

Hear hear!

Hexen's atmosphere (in general) owns a lot more than Doom's, and without ACS Hexen would prolly end up a pretty lame sequel to Heretic. ACS really enhances the whole game, and it had (at the time) rarely seen things in it, like cool sequences using scripts. I love Hexen's scripting and it would be so much worse without it.

[Chopkinsca]

I would still play hexen if it didn't have the scripting.
as stated before, the atmosphere is different then doom, the way the hubs work, and everything...

[myk]

Hexen, with its main features (scripting, classes, inventory, hubs) coupled with the way it was made (which is naturally related to those features) is a "novelty" game. The main point in the game is finding new and different things in it (this is inevitable, because of it's design.) It is like a baroque FPS where design is given the lead, giving many possibilities. This, of course, destroys one thing that can make a game great, and that's a certain level of repetitiveness. Complexity, I think, is better for looking good than being fun.

[AndrewB]

As a game, Hexen > Doom or Doom 2. Doom/Doom2 are more popular because of having sold millions of copies, and still today for being insanely editable and modifiable.

It's like comparing Wolf3D to Blake Stone. Wolf3D is obviously much more of a household name, but Blake Stone took the engine and did different and better things with it. Although I must admit, Wolf3D still has some great gameplay factors that ALL recent games lack. That is, the factor of FEAR, always having to look behind your back, being insanely tense when guards are loose and you don't know which way because you can't hear directions... No recent game comes close to giving me the shocks and jolts of Wolf3D.

But anyway, yeah. As purely one game to another, Hexen is better than Doom or Doom 2.

[læmænt]

AndrewB said:

Doom/Doom2 are more popular because of having sold millions of copies

Uh, er, duh?

[deadnail]

AndrewB said:
No recent game comes close to giving me the shocks and jolts of Wolf3D.

Have you played System Shock 2?

I mean, Wolf3D never did anything for me but System Shock 2 scared the everloving piss out of me a few times.

Undying gave me a few genuine starts as well.

And Hexen is not a gimmick game. Hexen shows the world that you CAN utilize cutting edge technology and make an excellent, fun game as well.

[stphrz]

Lüt said:

But, Hexen does have better level design, monster placement and general atmosphere than Doom.

Hexen did have it's fair share of lousy maps, but so did Doom. I have yet to play a more atmospheric set of Doom-engine-based maps than Shadow Wood, and the rest of Hexen's maps aren't far behind that hub.

I disagree. But let's just say you are correct. How much of what makes Hexen a good game is due to ACS?

I think Doom is a better game because :

A: Better textures and sprites. I find the Hexen textures to be too "busy" and "grainy". There's also less variety.

B: Better monsters. Way way way better.

C: Better weapons. Several quantum leaps better.

D: Better sounds. Far more frightening than in Hexen. The wake up roar of a Baron can still shock me sometimes.

ACS however flexible cannot even begin to compensate for basic design deficiences. It's power is far more limited than it's been made out to be.

[AndrewB]

Hexen, without the ACS, would just be a Doom clone, therefore figuratively inferior. With the ACS, and it is no small difference with it being tightly woven into every great gameplay aspect of the game, is the thick layer of icing that puts Hexen over the top.

I guess I should have just said that Doom and Doom 2 were more popular, period. Hexen wasn't marketed and Raven didn't have the cult following that ID had. So Hexen was and is less popular, but still the better game. Plus, it's almost every bit as editible as the Dooms.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

stphrz said:

Doom > Hexen.

Doom has no ACS.

Ergo, games or levels can be just as good or better without.

Level design is more important than scripts.
Monster placement is more important than scripts.
General atmosphere and appearance is more important that scripts.

If Hexen had been developed without ACS perhaps more effort would have been put into other more important areas. Perhaps a better game would have resulted.

Although not required to make great maps, ACS improves gameplay, atmosphere and appearance if done correctly. Dark 7, Project Slipgate etc. are a whole lot better with ACS than they would have been without. The same goes for LTSD (but it still ended up not getting the praise it deserves)

[myk]

I don't think Hexen has bad map designs... the design of the game is at DOOM's level more or less. It's not that, it's the technical differences that make it a much less exciting and action packed game overall. It's like, slower and less dynamic.

If anything, the designs, good for its kind, aren't convincing. The atmosphere generated is very cool. But many things don't work out. One is the monsters and weapons... DOOM's are much better because of the existence of firearms, for one. Then other features that as I said, tend to diffuse the play possibilities. In general you get more factors contributing to how the game is played, which detract from the "playing piece" nature of the game, making it harder to play each part of the game thoroughly.

Not that Hexen sucks... I liked it, but I don't feel inclined to play Hexen, Hexen add-ons, or Hexen-like maps for whatever, when I have so many DOOM maps to play.

Maybe I'd play some Hexen in multi-player mode, just to see some action with the three (or at least two) classes, but I doubt that'll come to pass.

[Chopkinsca]

Ultimate DooMer said:

Although not required to make great maps, ACS improves gameplay, atmosphere and appearance if done correctly. Dark 7, Project Slipgate etc. are a whole lot better with ACS than they would have been without. The same goes for LTSD (but it still ended up not getting the praise it deserves)

indeed, without scripting, LTSD would be just like any other doom level. (well, the good ones). The scripting brought you more into the game I found. And added some challenge as opposed to placing large amounts of monsters everywhere.