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UnknDoomer

Did early (1993-1996) category "B" shooters ever had a chance?

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20 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I admit, even the Aleph One port feels rather clunky to use on PC, as the controls seem to be designed with Apple's OS in mind first; I could never figure out how to pause the game or even configure the settings in-game without going back to the main menu. Also, the FOV really takes time to get used to. I would really love to see the Marathon Trilogy get remade in GZDoom or equivalent.

 

As for a spiritual sequel, you might want to check out Supplice.

Aleph One is fantastic, there's just some quirks. I'm on the Discord with the developers and they try really hard to strike a balance between completely vanilla and playable on modern OS'. I'd recommend really trying to play through them, the games are excellent.

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Oh, I did play through them several times already. They are just not as easy to pick up and play as Doom, because in addition to the technical quirks and unintuitive level design, they are much more unforgiving in terms of difficulty and they require you to regularly stop everything and read some arguably well-written but oftentimes cryptic text logs. Also, there is that infamous Marathon 2 final level that basically requires you to run the gauntlet and frantically rush through the final terminal's messages - and pray that you are both fast and lucky enough to survive to see the ending screen...

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27 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I admit, even the Aleph One port feels rather clunky to use on PC, as the controls seem to be designed with Apple's OS in mind first; I could never figure out how to pause the game or even configure the settings in-game without going back to the main menu. Also, the FOV really takes time to get used to. I would really love to see the Marathon Trilogy get remade in GZDoom or equivalent.

 

As for a spiritual sequel, you might want to check out Supplice.

Aleph One is fine at what it does, I must say that I find it an odd and quirky engine but given the base game that's actually to be expected.

 

I find it probably has one of the easiest mod loading functions I've ever used too, the Aleph One team did great. I would have gotten more into the Marathon community but alas at the time I could not get a mapping tool to actually work on my system.

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9 hours ago, CBM said:

Is there a complete list of games based on the wolf engine?

9 hours ago, JBerg said:

There are some games that are not on this list, like Nitemare 3D.
I recommend searching for stuff inspired by wolf3D rather than using the engine as a base, you will find more games overall.

Edited by Noiser

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16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Oh, I did play through them several times already. They are just not as easy to pick up and play as Doom, because in addition to the technical quirks and unintuitive level design, they are much more unforgiving in terms of difficulty and they require you to regularly stop everything and read some arguably well-written but oftentimes cryptic text logs. Also, there is that infamous Marathon 2 final level that basically requires you to run the gauntlet and frantically rush through the final terminal's messages - and pray that you are both fast and lucky enough to survive to see the ending screen...

Very true. And you're right, they are nowhere near as easy to pickup and play as the various Doom ports. Stuff like GZDoom, Crispy Doom, and PrBoom+/MAPINFO require basically no setup. 

 

And there really is no defending the gantlet at the end of M2. Still love the games, but they are certainly more of an acquired taste. 

 

*edit

 

Oh and there's no shame in lowering the difficulty. Total Carnage is really difficult in all of the games. I still like how M2 and Infinity throw hordes of enemies at you early on. Wish they had a soundtrack.

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14 minutes ago, Noiser said:

There are some games that are not on this list, like Nitemare 3D.
I recommend searching for stuff inspired by wolf3D rather than using the engine as a base, you will find more games overall.

 

Nitemare 3D had its own engine

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Dark Forces feels left out... I remember being impressed by an early demo, seeing how its engine was at least as fast as Doom's (not a given by a far cry, Duke3D and Descent ran like molasses on the same system), and yet allowed more complex visuals. You couldn't really call it "obscure" since it was developed by Lucasarts and was a Star Wars licensed game, but perhaps the latter limited its appeal outside hardcore Star Wars fans.

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2 minutes ago, Maes said:

Dark Forces feels left out... I remember being impressed by an early demo, seeing how its engine was at least as fast as Doom's (not a given by a far cry, Duke3D and Descent ran like molasses on the same system), and yet allowed more complex visuals. You couldn't really call it "obscure" since it was developed by Lucasarts and was a Star Wars licensed game, but perhaps the latter limited its appeal outside hardcore Star Wars fans.

 

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan but I have to say that Star Wars Dark Forces is great. Definitely one of the better shooters from that era. Better than Duke Nukem 3D imo

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6 minutes ago, JBerg said:

 

Nitemare 3D had its own engine

Never tried nightmare but dark forces was pretty nice.

 

There are so many classic games that could be remade in ZDOOM :-)

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5 minutes ago, Maes said:

Dark Forces feels left out... I remember being impressed by an early demo, seeing how its engine was at least as fast as Doom's (not a given by a far cry, Duke3D and Descent ran like molasses on the same system), and yet allowed more complex visuals. You couldn't really call it "obscure" since it was developed by Lucasarts and was a Star Wars licensed game, but perhaps the latter limited its appeal outside hardcore Star Wars fans.

That's another classic I forgot to mention. There's really a lot of great DOS shooters. Really fun game, excellent art style / sprites / textures too. And let's not forget the Star Wars OST midis. *chef's kiss*

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2 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Oh and there's no shame in lowering the difficulty. Total Carnage is really difficult in all of the games. I still like how M2 and Infinity throw hordes of enemies at you early on. Wish they had a soundtrack.

I do not recall playing on the highest difficulty setting. Is the final Juggernaut absent from the last room on Total Carnage?

 

However, I am fine with Durandal and Infinity having no soundtrack: it makes things more atmospheric and tense. Plus, Marathon 1's soundtrack is kind of... eh. Some nice tunes, but a lot of them sound like they belong in a much lighterhearted game.

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On 11/16/2021 at 9:28 AM, UnknDoomer said:

The Terminator: Future Shock

 

Did you mean The Terminator: Rampage? As that was a wolf3d like game, Future shock/SkyNet was a lot different.

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7 minutes ago, Liberation said:

 

Did you mean The Terminator: Rampage? As that was a wolf3d like game, Future shock/SkyNet was a lot different.

Both very pretty cool games from what I remember

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Yeah they were, I really like them. Both janky as hell, Terminators weren't the real killers in that game.. A slight incline was tho :-)

 

I do enjoy them however, great fun and very atmospheric. 

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3 hours ago, OniriA said:

What about category C and D shooters? 

They have feelings too. 

Does anyone else remember the $9.99 "3D Chicken Shooter" (not the real title) games they used to have in the budget PC game section in Walmart? They were usually right next to the "10,001 Games" and shovelware clipart disks. Every time I'd go to Walmart, there was always a new cheap Duck Hunt clone where the goal was to shoot chickens. Granted, this was around 2000-2005, so maybe it's a bit off topic. But apparently there was demand for 3D cockshooters that weren't actually 3D. Now the budget section is just a rack full of Bejeweled clones.

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3 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Does anyone else remember the $9.99 "3D Chicken Shooter" (not the real title) games they used to have in the budget PC game section in Walmart?


No, but when I read "chicken shooter" it made me think of Bobenstein 3d:
 

Spoiler

 


 


 

 

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On 11/16/2021 at 8:32 PM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

On topic, no, they never stood a chance.

Doubt: There have been a lot of games that sported better engines than Wolf3D (Last Rites, Madspace), were innovative, but didn't struck gold.

The 2.5D shooter craze did last a bit longer though - 1998/1999 really. I remember 1997's Alpha Storm, being some kind of Space RPG like Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls.

 

On 11/16/2021 at 8:32 PM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

 

Games using the Wolf 3D engine were never as good as Wolf 3D. And that was already outdated by 1993 because of the incredible Doom engine. Doom fans had Doom, Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, and The Master Levels. On top of the (mostly) quality official releases, you had also had a burgeoning community, even though they aren't Ancient Aliens good, you still had great stuff like Aliens TC, Infinity, Obituary, etc.

modified DOS engines from Wolf3D played host to quite a few standalone games on DOS, 2006-2012 or so. Absence is one of those.

 

Then again the Wolf scene is heavy fan of custom engines that aren't compatible with anything else, so that's why DOS kept out for so long.

 

Heck, the Doom clone Klooni had a standalone DOS release, so Doom on Wolf3D could be experienced on DOS.

On 11/16/2021 at 8:32 PM, Dusty_Rhodes said:

There was no reason to play lazier, inferior games when there were so many good ones. And when Half Life came out, they didn't stand a chance.

Not all countries had 3D accelerator cards or the dough to play these games. Tao, which used the Mars3D engine, came out in 1998 - Half-Life's year. It looks.. interesting.

 

 

PS: the Mars3D tech also powered 3D Hero - probably infamous for its Quake sound effects:

 

 

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16 hours ago, CBM said:

Thanks for the link.

I'm surprised at the catacomb abyss dates. They must be Wrong.

 

These dates are from when the Catacomb games were re-released as the GOG Catacombs Pack.

Catacomb Abyss was originally released in 1992.

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4 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Does anyone else remember the $9.99 "3D Chicken Shooter" (not the real title) games they used to have in the budget PC game section in Walmart? They were usually right next to the "10,001 Games" and shovelware clipart disks. Every time I'd go to Walmart, there was always a new cheap Duck Hunt clone where the goal was to shoot chickens. Granted, this was around 2000-2005, so maybe it's a bit off topic. But apparently there was demand for 3D cockshooters that weren't actually 3D. Now the budget section is just a rack full of Bejeweled clones.

Those games?

 

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Another game of this variety I can remember is another FPS Raven released before Heretic using an in-house engine and titled CyClones. Movement is a little strange but strangely impressive and it's a little on the janky side, but it's probably a better looking game than any of the other sub-Doom 2.5D games. You've got the same amount of weapons as Wolfenstein 3D roughly, but with far, far less maz-y level layouts. Plus, it has a gloriously 90s techno soundtrack, courtesy of the folks who brought us the main theme of Marathon 2, Power of Seven! The most annoying thing was a bug where weapons continue to fire, but it apparently doesn't appear when you run it in a native DOS environment as opposed to DOSBox, which is....strange. Not to mention, FMV cutscenes like the one game played by Civvie 11 are also a thing here. I have to wonder if it would've found a niche if Doom had not come out.

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58 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Doubt: There have been a lot of games that sported better engines than Wolf3D (Last Rites, Madspace), were innovative, but didn't struck gold.

The 2.5D shooter craze did last a bit longer though - 1998/1999 really. I remember 1997's Alpha Storm, being some kind of Space RPG like Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls.

 

modified DOS engines from Wolf3D played host to quite a few standalone games on DOS, 2006-2012 or so. Absence is one of those.

 

Then again the Wolf scene is heavy fan of custom engines that aren't compatible with anything else, so that's why DOS kept out for so long.

 

Heck, the Doom clone Klooni had a standalone DOS release, so Doom on Wolf3D could be experienced on DOS.

Not all countries had 3D accelerator cards or the dough to play these games. Tao, which used the Mars3D engine, came out in 1998 - Half-Life's year. It looks.. interesting.

 

 

PS: the Mars3D tech also powered 3D Hero - probably infamous for its Quake sound effects:

 

 

An excellent bit of perspective. Thanks for the reply.

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5 hours ago, Rudolph said:

 

 

However, I am fine with Durandal and Infinity having no soundtrack: it makes things more atmospheric and tense.

I can't  agree with this: Marathon 2 does ok without a soundtrack, but without something of at least an ambient nature, there's nothing to be motivating. Infinity meanwhile....hardly has enough 'atmosphere' for that to make any sense. If I ever find the time for it, I'll probably play through the rest with some bits from the Velvetic Pack or maybe a Dragonfly album.

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12 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

It could be argued that Marathon (somewhat indirectly) was massively influential due to the fact that it was a Bungie series that inspired and preceded Halo, which I imagine would be quite different if it wasn't for Marathon. I'd say that any game related to the development of one of the most popular and acclaimed FPS series in history had more than minimal influence, even if it didn't sell as much as its successor.

 

This is like saying that Doom had major influence on Quake, the answer to which is "no shit." It's kind of silly to point at subsequent games (or books, or whatever) as being "influenced" by what the creator released prior, because of course the creator is going to build on what they've already done. Halo is far more influential than its predecessor, and that's something that can be discussed and quantified. Marathon not so much, except insofar as it preceded Halo.

 

8 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I admit, even the Aleph One port feels rather clunky to use on PC, as the controls seem to be designed with Apple's OS in mind first; I could never figure out how to pause the game or even configure the settings in-game without going back to the main menu. Also, the FOV really takes time to get used to. I would really love to see the Marathon Trilogy get remade in GZDoom or equivalent.

 

As for a spiritual sequel, you might want to check out Supplice.

 

Aleph One is a fine source port but it does lack a few QOL features. I notice that it takes significant leaps in quality and usability every so often, however.

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41 minutes ago, june gloom said:

 

This is like saying that Doom had major influence on Quake, the answer to which is "no shit." It's kind of silly to point at subsequent games (or books, or whatever) as being "influenced" by what the creator released prior, because of course the creator is going to build on what they've already done. Halo is far more influential than its predecessor, and that's something that can be discussed and quantified. Marathon not so much, except insofar as it preceded Halo.

Hence "somewhat indirectly influenced". It might not have been incredibly influential to the whole FPS market, but internally it inspired a series that changed the market entirely. Internal influence among developers can be just as important as public influence if it ends up leading to change. I don't think it's silly.

 

Even if you put that logic aside, Marathon was still the first commercially available FPS that allowed mouselook, and (correct me if I'm wrong) the first FPS with alternate fire modes. It also showed advancements in the genre in terms of storytelling by having viewable terminals, predating things like text files and audio logs in later FPS titles. So I still hold my opinion that it had more than "minimal influence", even when putting the Halo situation aside. 

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2 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

I can't  agree with this: Marathon 2 does ok without a soundtrack, but without something of at least an ambient nature, there's nothing to be motivating. Infinity meanwhile....hardly has enough 'atmosphere' for that to make any sense. If I ever find the time for it, I'll probably play through the rest with some bits from the Velvetic Pack or maybe a Dragonfly album.

I cannot think of a soundtrack that would fit Durandal and Infinity. Of course, that excludes the amazing theme songs.

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On 11/16/2021 at 12:28 PM, UnknDoomer said:

The Terminator: Future Shock, Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold, Corridor 7: Aliens Invasion, Depth Dwellers, or, perhaps, something else, take your pick. A number of those had a relatively good and original concept, although they had a lot of shortcomings, but every of them were destined to remain in the shadows, first of all - Doom, and then other shooters.

Back to the original question of this topic, it is my understanding that back when they were released, almost every "B" (or whatever you'd call it) FPS was covered in gaming media in some form, and they were more or less widely played. Heck, Future Shock even influenced the addition of mouselook to Duke Nukem 3D.

 

Most of them did fade into obscurity pretty quickly, but I'm thinking that maybe the very fact that the market was saturated with "Doom clones" was one of the major causes. Also the technology progressed very rapidly, and whoever licensed the Wolf3D engine to benefit from the id craze in 1992-1993 quickly found themselves blown out of the water by Doom. And then almost all of the Doom clones were overshadowed by Quake etc. I think that in addition to Dark Forces and Powerslave, one game that went more or less obscure rather undeservedly IMO is Eradicator, which is a pretty solid mission-based FPS/TPS that is quite similar to Duke but does not use the Build engine, and gets a lot of things done right. Bonus points to devs because IIRC they had no prior experience with designing this kind of game.

 

I can add my two cents to the Blake Stone versus Corridor 7 debate, as I played the Blake Stone shareware and the C7 demos long before Civvie's video and I certainly liked Blake Stone while not so much about Corridor 7. For one, Blake Stone has a lot more polish, it looks nicer and combat is pretty fairly balanced. You can move back and forth between levels and explore a lot, there are special events like Goldfire teleporting behind your back and attacking. The levels look different and have distinct themes, etc. Corridor 7 on the other hand is dark and clunky, enemies deal a ton of damage and some do not make any noise so you can walk into a room and they one-hit you from a corner where you couldn't have possibly seen them without prior knowledge. It can make for a dark, oppressing atmosphere but is not much fun to play IMO.

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What i hear often in Videos is." We/I was happy to have at least some kind of Doom.",

because they lacked the Hardware to play Doom.

 

So other Games where good if you hadn't the Hardware or if you wanted more "Doom" .

 

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Huh, what do you know? People did put together a soundtrack for Marathon 2: Durandal.

 

The tracks are good, but again, I am just too used to the game's eerie silence and occasional ambient noises.

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