If you had to replace one level or remake a level from Classic Doom (Ultimate Doom and Doom 2) with a new map, what level would you replace and why, and what would your level be like and why?

[Klaesick]

Basically, you make a Vanilla styled level or remake a level for either Ultimate Doom or Doom 2, and for some stupid alien space bats reason it's sent back in time and ends up replacing a level from the original games.

For me, I'd replace Hell Keep. That level is a pathetic excuse for Hell. I like the eye elevator, but that's about it. It's just not that good.

I'd replace it with something more grand, and something similar to the Maps of Chaos version of Hell Keep, with a castle similar to that from Brutal Doom. Atleast 50 to 60 monsters. Also, having to use only the pistol on a Cacodemon is something that just shouldn't be there.

The track should of been different as well. The weird rock music from Hell Keep just doesn't fit it. Something more foreboding, a track similar to Shaun's got the Shotgun or maybe Sinister.

[DynamiteKaitorn]

I'd replace E3M7 With literally ANY DooM II map prior to map 25. Seriously... E3M7 was not built well.

[Stupid Bunny]

Both Hell Keep and Nirvana. They had two shots to give us a spectacular introduction to Hell and they somehow blew it both times

[Dusty_Rhodes]

15 minutes ago, Stupid Bunny said:

Both Hell Keep and Nirvana. They had two shots to give us a spectacular introduction to Hell and they somehow blew it both times

Ain't that the truth. I love Sandy's maps, I really do. But those two are just not good.

 

If I were to replace both levels, Nirvana would be a spooky castle, lots of lava and foreboding Hell imagery. Think stone towers, book shelves, lavafalls, etc.

Hell Keep I would just replace with @DavidN's cool replacement. Lotta fun.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Hell Keep. Nothing says "welcome to Hell" like a small map where the "main attraction" is waiting for a Cacodemon to kill a few Imps for you.

 

I would make it into a map where you stand in line at Gamestop and wait for the new Pokemon game to come out.

[Foodles]

Damn I like hell keep, thought it had some cool bits in it particularly when you run across that bridge to get the shotgun and it collapses behind you. Now Nirvana I'll agree is pretty poor...

[Nine Inch Heels]

I think I would replace E3M1... I don't think it's a very good opener for an episode that calls itself "inferno"...

 

It's not that I don't appreciate how the map itself starts... I think the first area of the map is alright, even though modern mapping doctrine would suggest not putting player starts in a pit but to provide some sort of vista instead. It's more like the rest of the map doesn't really have a lot of meat on the bone, IMO...

 

So I'd build a similar (in principle) starting area, but those corridor sections in particular need to go... I feel like it's a missed opportunity not to have something in the map that is some mixture of "organic" and "bricks", given how the map begins, and some lava and fire here and there wouldn't hurt either...

[Argent Agent]

Probably would replace E2M9, E4M9, or MAP21.

The mystery behind Fortress of Mystery, to me, is how this map got into the wad in the first place. Feels like a small filler map made in 30 minutes and doesn't really feel gimmicky other than being a tiny map. Could probably keep the beastiary set, but maybe a larger map with something like the door gimmick, but it takes a while for each of the doors to raise while stuff teleports in?

Fear is an okayish map, but does not deserve to be a secret map; symmetrical and boring with no gimmicks. I'd say cut the map in half and "corrupt" the other half with a hell theme and a different layout. Maybe also have something more than just scattered zombiemen and imps throughout the map too because this map's difficulty is trivial compared to the preceding maps.

Nirvana is self-explanatory. Would rather have a map that was well thought through instead of something that looked hastily thrown together. The map doesn't really look hellish either, so maybe start with the theme and work the way to a better layout that doesn't feel so discontinuous and has a few bugs along the way. Monster set feels okay, but everything else about this map just ain't so good.

[lokbustam257]

- E3M1

- E3M7

- E3M8

- MAP25

- MAP30

- and... you guessed it: Nirvana

 

E3M1: This level is really poor for an opening, I mean shooting 2 Cacos with a pistol? How fun... Would remake with more rock textures and lots of MARBFACE

 

E3M7: Is it called Limbo because of its very confusing layout? My version would be make it dark and rework the layout and make it has at least 200 monster for the penultimate level.

 

E3M8: I'd argue this is the most easy level in Doom if you play it in a source port that fixed the blockmap bug (and if you doing continuous play) . So change it to say, the spider demon is a turret at the top, and while you busy killing her, some fodder like pinky, baron, caco will at the bottom will make your job harder.

 

MAP25: This level is quite bland and easy for an episode 3 map. Would remake it with the "blood island" theme.

 

MAP30: Really? You call 9 textures of Icon of Sin a boss level? Would replace the wall demon "boss battle" with something like Doom 1's Tower of Babel, you're in an arena and has to defeat it by shooting at it until it dies.

 

MAP21: Yeah, you're already know what this level is all about. Would make the setting set in a corrupted beach, and instead of water, it was filled with nukage and lava floor texture.

[Stupid Bunny]

23 minutes ago, Argent Agent said:

The mystery behind Fortress of Mystery, to me, is how this map got into the wad in the first place. Feels like a small filler map made in 30 minutes and doesn't really feel gimmicky other than being a tiny map. Could probably keep the beastiary set, but maybe a larger map with something like the door gimmick, but it takes a while for each of the doors to raise while stuff teleports in?

 

I think the main gimmick of Fortress of Mystery is the heavy implication of making the Barons and cacodemons whale on each other (the dead cacos in the Baron chamber, the hanging Barons in the cacodemon chamber).  I kind of like it in a weird way for how small and pointless it is, but objectively yeah the concept could've been fleshed out a bit.  Totally agree that Fear is out of place and bland for E4, would actually say that E1M9 is also too unremarkable to be a good fit as a secret level, although as a level it's fine.

 

I realized I didn't answer the meatier part of the question, so I'll give it a shot

 

Hell Keep is almost good, the problem is that the first half is mostly slowly pop-gunning cacodemons to death and the last half is mostly killing way too many pinkies in a tiny corridor one by one.  The actual level should be a bit more interconnected, with some more open space, more verticality and more goddamn ammo.  I like the "flesh garden" feel of the beginning though.

 

Doom II's Hell maps in general are a disappointment (except MAP28 and 29) because they mostly seem to have forgotten they're supposed to be in Hell in the first place--why is there an abandoned mine in Hell? But at least that map looks good and is fun to play.  MAP21 needed a more defined sense of place, I could've gone for more marble, maybe some METAL2 alongside wood and flesh in the vein of E3.  Also more outdoor space, something to make it feel like you're not just in someone's really weird apartment.  And fucking any track besides Countdown to Death, which is perfectly good but makes no sense for the first Hell map of the game.  Maybe they could've used [insert song off of In Utero here]

[pcorf]

E3M8, would make it a larger and much harder map.

[leodoom85]

1 hour ago, pcorf said:

E3M8, would make it a larger and much harder map.

I agree 1000%

The map should have a proper buildup to reach a big area to kill the mom spider properly.

 

I mean, she is the fucking mastermind behind the invasion, so...it should be a lot of monsters and the boss to make it harder.

[SilverMiner]

I'd replace secret maps of Doom 2 with something that doesn't look out of place

[Shibainumaster]

It would be cool to see E3M1 replaced with a medium sized, hard map with better visuals, something like Sandy Petersen did in E3M5 but smaller and with no teleporter traps.

[Stupid Bunny]

1 hour ago, SilverMiner said:

I'd replace secret maps of Doom 2 with something that doesn't look out of place

 

Actually, what I think would've been cool is if they'd stuck with the out-of-place Wolf3D resources, but instead of just remaking two Wolf3D maps in Doom, they actually built real maps with them, using the SS men and their half-chaingunner combat characteristics and the textures somewhat creatively, with height variations, non-orthogonal architecture, etc. etc.  They still would've been weird and incongruous, but also would've been more fun to play (and secret levels get a free pass to be weird or incongruous, anyway--in fact I'm usually disappointed if they're not.)

[Gwarl]

21 hours ago, Klaesick said:

Basically, you make a Vanilla styled level or remake a level for either Ultimate Doom or Doom 2, and for some stupid alien space bats reason it's sent back in time and ends up replacing a level from the original games.

For me, I'd replace Hell Keep. That level is a pathetic excuse for Hell. I like the eye elevator, but that's about it. It's just not that good.

I'd replace it with something more grand, and something similar to the Maps of Chaos version of Hell Keep, with a castle similar to that from Brutal Doom. Atleast 50 to 60 monsters. Also, having to use only the pistol on a Cacodemon is something that just shouldn't be there.

The track should of been different as well. The weird rock music from Hell Keep just doesn't fit it. Something more foreboding, a track similar to Shaun's got the Shotgun or maybe Sinister.

I already made a much more grand version of Hell Keep, and I replaced the music:

 

 

[Summer Deep]

I'd replace Doom II MAP30 with a proper level. Something like the existing MAP29 would have been a good basis for a final level, if it had been around twice as long, with maybe two or three Cyberdemons.

 

A real bonus of this would have been that generations of subsequent PWAD mappers wouldn't have felt obliged to end their megawads with an IoS.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Summer Deep

[Cipherz Gaming YT]

I personally would replace E1M1, but keep the hangar aesthetic going. Like, it should have a back area where you can walk to, aka, the outdoor entrance to the base. There should also be a runaway, landing pad, and a couple of crates in the hangars bay area. There should be a flight room as well, and a nukage dump outside.

[Rudolph]

E2M9. The two arenas are okay, but the skull key non-puzzle is, well, puzzling, to say the least.

 

Has Sandy Petersen ever explained why he designed the map that way? If he is to go back to making Doom maps, I wish he could redo E2M9.

[Teo Slayer]

I would replace Gate to Limbo with a better map I guess

[Uni]

Definitely Hell Keep. As much as I can relate to the fact that Sandy didn't have that much time to create and to enhance Tom Hall's creations, I think Hell Keep is just so bare and uninspiring. The collapsing bridge is a really nice touch but that's basically it in terms of Sandy's innovative approach. 

 

I can forgive Fortress of Mystery for being a simple concept map and that's it, I don't think it's as bad as people claim it is. It doesn't need to be something other than the idea it presents. It's kind of fun from pistol start too!

[RetroAkaMe]

I'd replace the entire episode four. I mostly hate it.

[Stupid Bunny]

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Has Sandy Petersen ever explained why he designed the map that way?

No, and he never will, because it’s the Fortress of Mystery. This is the mystery.

[OkDoomer174]

I'd take Doom II MAP30 and replace it with Redemption Denied from PSX Doom, add a BFG to the beginning, add a Cyberdemon encounter between the Barons and the Masterminds, and add the original IoS battle to the end instead of the exit teleporter. Doom II MAP30 is probably the only IWAD level that isn't that good in my opinion. All of the other levels, including other IoS levels, were at least fun. MAP30 is just "rocket go boom in head 🤯"; TNT had the candle puzzle which probably had everyone scratching their heads in the 90s, and Plutonia's MAP30 was filled with monsters. Doom II's just... Sucked. Redemption Denied wasn't the worst, though. Maybe I'll make this an actual map...

[Maximum Matt]

No hatred for Episode 4?  I would kick E4M4 out, or at least swap it with map 1.

I would also swap maps 6 and 7, because I'm pedantic like that

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Maximum Matt said:

No hatred for Episode 4?  I would kick E4M4 out, or at least swap it with map 1.

I would also swap maps 6 and 7, because I'm pedantic like that

Don't you mean PERFECT Hatred? :P

[pcorf]

11 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

I'd replace secret maps of Doom 2 with something that doesn't look out of place

 

I've been thinking about making secret level replacements for Doom 2 for the last few years. Will do it when I am ready.

[Maximum Matt]

13 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Don't you mean PERFECT Hatred? :P

[SMG_Man]

I'd replace one of the fairly orthodox levels with something really crazy. Not quite NUTS tier, but swapping out one of those middling levels in Doom 2 that doesn't leave much of an impression (like maybe the Catacombs or Monster Condo) and put in a level that really pushes the vanilla engine to the limits - archvile-raised ghost monsters, walk-under/over bridges, etc. All just to spark even crazier ideas later on down the line from modders like us.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, pcorf said:

I've been thinking about making secret level replacements for Doom 2 for the last few years. Will do it when I am ready.

Jimmy remade Doom II levels as secret levels for Deathless, so maybe your secret levels could be remakes of Ultimate Doom levels! :P