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ChestedArmor

How do you aproach building maps?

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To be more exact:

 

- Do you build on the stream?

 

- Or is planning more your style?

 

- If you plan, do you do it digital or analog?

 

- How do you approach either?

 

- Do you do it on a topdown or a sideway perspective?

 

(last one is hard to explain, so here's an example of mine:)

Spoiler

20211130_212102.jpg.72dcd0e94d09325979466987bf9b0b02.jpg

If this gibberish is unclear, let me know and I'll give you the map for comparison.

 

- Are you planning the rooms or encounters first?

 

- Are textures or music determining the design or do you apply them last?

 

- Do you make/write your own textures/music?

 

- Do you push the limits of 2.5D or is loyal to the original top priority?

Edited by ChestedArmor

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When I started mapping back in the mid-00s, I planned almost all my maps on paper. They were top-down, primitive more due to my lack of experience or modern map exposure (I’d only played vanilla maps at that point.) I had little doodles for the main powerups, symbols for the keys, and the monsters were all letters or letter combos like I, Z, S, D/Sp, Co, Ca, Rv, Av, Cy, PE. Most of those levels never got made, although a few got stitched together into the first of my needlessly long maps.
 

I never plan maps beforehand anymore, at least in the sense of drawing them out by hand. Usually I have a general vision or concept in my mind and just kind of build into that. This is sometimes a problem for my larger maps, as I’ll frequently encounter mapper’s block in specific areas until inspiration strikes. Often I’ll have an idea like “there’ll be a big building here” and I never come up with a building I like, and then one day suddenly I see in my head a craggy landscape there instead and suddenly new fresh ideas abound! Or I’ll just change the shape of the map completely.

 

I always used to detail and texture as I go. It felt satisfying to have every room look the way it should in its final state, right away. But as I get into speedmapping I’m forcing myself into a “layout first” approach that I think works extremely well, by defying that urge to drill down into each room at a time I get a much better flow and can just put down linedefs, as they say, letting forms and layouts create themselves around the broad concepts I go in with. 

 

Usually I like to start with the textures I’m going to use. I’m resistant to using large custom texture sets, I guess I’m lazy and just so familiar with Doom 1 and 2 textures (and, to a lesser extent, TNT ones) that it feels it would consume too much time to learn a new set so well. That said, with my last big project I periodically would add a fistful of cool textures that I thought could jazz it up without departing too much from the mostly-vanilla feel it has. Oh yeah and back in high school I drew a huge number of textures for a Commander Keen-themed Doom TC that I eventually abandoned; in this case I again intended not to build out the full complement of levels until the texture pack was mostly done.

Edited by Stupid Bunny

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I like to think about a theme and then plan a top down layout on paper. (It's just quicker)

I then copy the map into my editor and modify sections if they are too big/small, running through the map to test. I then detail the map one are at a time, adding items, key features, height, and textures. I then run around the map in-game again. Once all the areas are complete, I add secrets, line/sector actions, and detail.

I then finish off with monsters, ammo, extra weapons, decorative things, and lighting. I then finally repeat playtest to get the items and enemies right.

 

To put simply, I make a room plan with a simple box layout on paper. I then turn that into a map through improvisation.

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>Do you build on the stream?

 

Whenever I have ideas for a map of sorts, I usually try to start a map (which is the hardest part if you ask me) and then add more and more ideas until, after and uncertain amount of time, I'm done. I do plan sometimes, but only in my head really. Too much time wasted on paper when I can doodle in Ultimate Doom Builder.

 

>Are you planning rooms or encounters first?

 

Good question, it's mostly rooms and then encounters. If I do encounters first, I would form the room to a shape where the encounters would fit to, you get my draft? However oftentimes these end up more snappier than I want it to. Don't want to make things too curel y'know?

 

>Are textures or music determining the design or do you apply them last?

 

Yes, yes they do. My main reason for this is to set the mood. As an example for my still WIP existence.wad I play the track in the background while I'm building the map itself. And the textures, while very vanilla do influence the way I build rooms. Yes, marble with vegetation and Wood textures along with some bloodfalls does sound odd, but If done right look very natural and just fits.

 

 

>Do you make/write your own textures/music?

 

I am no artist nor did I have the time to make midified garbage. I don't really think I have the skills or the tools to make either (I mean I could try anyways). I did make some sprites once and boy these do not look great.

 

>Do you push the limits of 2.5D or is loyal to the original top priority?

 

Do you mean I either make stairs or make everything like Wolfenstein 3D?

I try to make most things more with height and depth, however I kinda run into problems like "Ok, this is a great room, but it's too flat though it isn't. How do I make it more interesting?" And add a comical amount of Doomcute and very small details noone looks at and then call it a day and never touch that map ever again. Sad!

 

I really want to build more maps, but at this point I cannot take a lot of free time, so most ideas or even small projects drop completely. Which is a bummer as people have said that my style of making a map is pretty good, considering I'm not really a newbie anymore.

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I usually make set of rooms in paint, then draw those shapes out in UDB, details within the rooms formed by the shapes are added in the form of layers, mainly since I'm pretentious cunt about making maps, and because of that, I like to treat map-making like if I was drawing an art piece. However, if I add too much detail, I usually lose interest and the map is abandoned, but I've been trying to stop this bad habit more recently with a map that I plan on releasing soon.

 

For music, I usually just listen to the original version of the song that the midi is based on, then I add the midi in post.

 

 

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Honestly I've done a bit of everything. I've tried speedmapping, using a pen and paper to make a detailed layout beforehand, using MS Paint to make a very rough layout, and just plain opening Doombuilder and starting from nothing with no limits in mind. They all have their merits, and when one isn't getting me far with an idea, I'll restart and try a different approach.

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I tend to just wing it. I imagine scenes or get inspiration from something and try to create it, but it honestly never turns out how I imagine it, but it serves as a good starting block. Once I've begun and have settled on a theme I can usually just logically go from there.

 

I can never sit down and plan a map, though, because I find even when planning, it doesn't turn out how you think. Or you start to get different ideas halfway through. For me it just works better to start painting straight on the canvas, so to speak, and see what happens.

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10 hours ago, PeterMoro said:

4. Test / build / test

5. Scrap a whole area / start again

6. cry 

 

So true, the full list is perfect though.

 

In my case I usually start with drawing an interesting start area (topdown mostly), once is feasible I try it on the doombuilder and add textures,

if it looks good I add lightning and detailing, always having in mind the geometry for later possible interconnections.

After this I usually to improvise something, that depends on inspiration. If nothing comes to mind I go back to drawing stuff 

and compiling more ideas/traps/geometry/etc...

 

When it comes to combat, if I see a cool spot for a trap or some sort of action sequence while mapping, I design it at the moment, or at least I

mark the walls I want to modify for later so I remember what I had in mind, but it is once I have the whole picture that I start to

design combat for the map and adding new alcoves/rooms...

 

Last for me is the music, once If tested enough the map I play as many midis as I can until some track fits perfectly in my mind,

then I play the map a bit to be sure it captures the atmosphere, thats basically it.

I guess everyone has its own routines for mapping.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Soulless

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I never really have a plan or full picture sometimes I have maybe one vague idea and build a whole map around it and somehow it comes together during the building process. I never mark anything down - whatever happens happens

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- Do you build on the stream?

 

I definitely approach a more "map as I go" style for the majority of my work. I'll have at least some idea of what I want and then I'll just go ham in builder. However-

 

- Or is planning more your style?

 

If it's a map that requires good flow (deathmatch being one of those things) I'll sketch out a layout or a partial layout to get a more cohesive feel for my map.

 

- If you plan, do you do it digital or analog?

 

I have a giant sketchbook that I draw layouts in. I'll also use pinterest boards for aesthetic ideas and take notes on a private Discord.

 

- Do you do it on a topdown or a sideway perspective?

 

Top down for overall layouts, sideway perspective for things like doors and facades.

 

- Are you planning the rooms or encounters first?

 

I plan rooms first generally, and let them inform the encounters I make, or, if I have an idea of what encounter I want, I'll use it to plan the room.

 

- Are textures or music determining the design or do you apply them last?

 

I've built entire maps based on single songs in my younger years, but in more recent times I at least will detail a single area to get an idea of how to theme the map.

 

- Do you make/write your own textures/music?

I do not, I am not that talented :P

 

- Do you push the limits of 2.5D or is loyal to the original top priority?

 

I tend to stick to generally more traditional 2.5D geometry but I do sprinkle in portal work, 3D architecture, etc.

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To be more exact:

 

- Do you build on the stream?

 

No, but some decisions such as detailing or most of thing placement I prefer doing on the fly doing multiple tests. Keys and layout are always planned, but I can change if I feel something will work better.

 

 

- Or is planning more your style?

 

Definitely a planning is required, with at least one top-down layout

 

 

- If you plan, do you do it digital or analog?

 

Analog

 

 

- How do you approach either?

 

First I think of a group of concepts, simple things like "indoor vs outdoor", "non-linear", gimmicks such as main enemy types or some contrasting element ("acid", "heigh variantion", etc). Then I start drawing on a paper, slowly, usually when I'm procastinating in work or waiting for something, thinking about the progression where some setpiece could've happen and etc, until I have an exitable map.

 

 

- Do you do it on a topdown or a sideway perspective?

 

Topdown, without too much detailing and scaling precision. The goal here, for me, is to have an "exitable layout" based on some group of concepts I thought earlier. If I think too much about monster placement or scale, the process becomes more difficult and I barely have anything good.

 

 

- Are you planning the rooms or encounters first?

 

Usually rooms, but some key elements of some setpieces I can think on planning phase

 

 

- Are textures or music determining the design or do you apply them last?

 

Textures a bit, but it's not uncommon to change. Music has always been last.

 

 

- Do you make/write your own textures/music?

 

Music yes, textures I steal them from the Textures topic or known wads

 

 

- Do you push the limits of 2.5D or is loyal to the original top priority?

 

Well, things can always change, even later (asking someone to playstest the map for you)

 

 

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I come up with some sort of basic plan for the layout if the map and then spontaneously create setpiece encounters and maybe a few incidental ones here and there in between to fill in the map layout.

 

Regarding setpiece encounter design, I will always create the shape of a room first and then place monsters strategically within it to create some sort of solution to the encounter which will allow you to survive. If needed I will modify the shape of the room to fit the strategy I have in mind as the solution.

 

Regarding incidental combat, I simply don’t understand it. There isn’t any sort of formula to it I’ve been able to derive. It seems to me like strategically placing monsters in areas where you have the option to retreat. If you have some sort of logic that you can explain to me regarding incidental combat then I would be very interested in hearing it.

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I'm largely a stream-of-consciousness mapper. I just draw shapes and slap things down until I have something I'm happy with.

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Love your sketche

8 minutes ago, Jacek Bourne said:

I come up with some sort of basic plan for the layout if the map and then spontaneously create setpiece encounters and maybe a few incidental ones here and there in between to fill in the map layout.

 

Regarding setpiece encounter design, I will always create the shape of a room first and then place monsters strategically within it to create some sort of solution to the encounter which will allow you to survive. If needed I will modify the shape of the room to fit the strategy I have in mind as the solution.

 

Regarding incidental combat, I simply don’t understand it. There isn’t any sort of formula to it I’ve been able to derive. It seems to me like strategically placing monsters in areas where you have the option to retreat. If you have some sort of logic that you can explain to me regarding incidental combat then I would be very interested in hearing it.

I don't know if there's a logic, but an important heuristic to my reckoning is planning with monster movement in mind. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what's meant by incidental but the most important thing to me is preserving multidirectional combat by making sure that a) monsters can get around different areas of the map so you can release them around the player and b) that they can't get around so much that they become completely concentrated in one area and narrow the combat field again. @xdarkmasterx is a mapper I find great at doing this.

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I used to sketch up a map on graph paper, but over the last few months I have adopted a strategy of building something really basic in doombuilder without a plan, and over multiple sessions I continue to chip away at the map until it feels finished. 

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I have very limited experience as opposed to almost everybody else, so this is gonna be a novice's view.

 

Planning hasn't worked for me. I did try sketching areas and rough ideas on one map, and that one area got scrapped quite fast. So, I make it up as I go. I just need to get the map started, the first room or the first general area, and when I find that satisfying, I don't have that much trouble building the rest.

 

I do the rooms first, and only then think of what sort of challenges lie there for the player. Naturally this phase might cause changes to map layout, implying that I don't really divide the work in separate segment; I'm drawing layout and doing encounters, doing decoration and fancy mechanics at the same time. I understand some people really do the layout first, and only then move on to other stuff. Difficulty levels is the one thing I leave for the last.

 

I'm also doing texturing on the fly. When I told I need t have the starting area complete before the level starts building itself, I also mean the texturing. The starting area is usually very much like it's going to be in the final version.

 

I also choose the music in the very early stages of design. That's partially to avoid hearing D_RUNNIN, but also the choice of music gets me in the groove. Testing always gets more inspiring with some Stewboy track kicking in.

 

Oh, and I don't make my own textures or music. Don't have the time, don't have the skills.

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7 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

Regarding incidental combat, I simply don’t understand it. There isn’t any sort of formula to it I’ve been able to derive. It seems to me like strategically placing monsters in areas where you have the option to retreat. If you have some sort of logic that you can explain to me regarding incidental combat then I would be very interested in hearing it.

Well who says there needs to be a formula :D. You can always try and look at it from a technical level, and try and breakdown the so-called "science" behind it, if you believe in one. Really incidental combat is just kinda filler to combat setpieces. Filler is often used in a negative connotation, but incidental combat is a good breath of fresh air between setpieces/combat puzzles. Usually incidental combat takes place in areas that connect setpiece encounters, and thus monsters are added to help make the space feel less empty; in other words, incidental combat is something to do as you traverse a space connecting setpieces.

 

Another important aspect of incidental combat with regards to the monster placement is how hard/engaging you want the incidental combat to be. If you want the player to be engaged in the incidental combat, which you probably do want, then you need to carefully plan out the resources given to the player relative to the monster placement they will face during the incidental combat. For example, if the player has a BFG and an abundance of cell packs and megaspheres against like 2 cacodemons and a zombieman, then the incidental combat isn't very engaging. If the player only has a chaingun with 90 bullets and 100% health with no armor, then the incidental combat is more engaging; I personally find incidental combat much more enjoyable when I have low health or no armor, since any little mistake hurts a lot more, and thus it's more engaging. I think if you look at maps like Magnolia Map01 or Stardate 20x7 Map02, where there is a ton of incidental combat and strict resources, you'll find the incidental combat is very engaging. There's other factors besides resources and monster placement, like the amount of space you have to move or platforming that can make the incidental combat more or less engaging as well.

 

So basically, you want to make your incidental combat engaging, and so you should focus on just making incidental combat fun and enjoyable, and usually less intense than the combat setpieces. The "logic" is the incidental combat just being enjoyable, so make what you enjoy.

 

Edit: As for how I approach building a map, I usually just have a cool single idea for a map, which could be the visual aesthetic, a certain midi playing in the background, or a neat fight, then I get to work on the map. I make the layout as I go and encounters as I go.

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5 hours ago, KineticBeverage said:

Well who says there needs to be a formula :D. You can always try and look at it from a technical level, and try and breakdown the so-called "science" behind it, if you believe in one. Really incidental combat is just kinda filler to combat setpieces. Filler is often used in a negative connotation, but incidental combat is a good breath of fresh air between setpieces/combat puzzles. Usually incidental combat takes place in areas that connect setpiece encounters, and thus monsters are added to help make the space feel less empty; in other words, incidental combat is something to do as you traverse a space connecting setpieces.

 

Another important aspect of incidental combat with regards to the monster placement is how hard/engaging you want the incidental combat to be. If you want the player to be engaged in the incidental combat, which you probably do want, then you need to carefully plan out the resources given to the player relative to the monster placement they will face during the incidental combat. For example, if the player has a BFG and an abundance of cell packs and megaspheres against like 2 cacodemons and a zombieman, then the incidental combat isn't very engaging. If the player only has a chaingun with 90 bullets and 100% health with no armor, then the incidental combat is more engaging; I personally find incidental combat much more enjoyable when I have low health or no armor, since any little mistake hurts a lot more, and thus it's more engaging. I think if you look at maps like Magnolia Map01 or Stardate 20x7 Map02, where there is a ton of incidental combat and strict resources, you'll find the incidental combat is very engaging. There's other factors besides resources and monster placement, like the amount of space you have to move or platforming that can make the incidental combat more or less engaging as well.

 

So basically, you want to make your incidental combat engaging, and so you should focus on just making incidental combat fun and enjoyable, and usually less intense than the combat setpieces. The "logic" is the incidental combat just being enjoyable, so make what you enjoy.

 

Edit: As for how I approach building a map, I usually just have a cool single idea for a map, which could be the visual aesthetic, a certain midi playing in the background, or a neat fight, then I get to work on the map. I make the layout as I go and encounters as I go.

 

Thank you! 

I'll take all of this in to consideration in the future.

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14 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

Regarding incidental combat, I simply don’t understand it. There isn’t any sort of formula to it I’ve been able to derive. It seems to me like strategically placing monsters in areas where you have the option to retreat. If you have some sort of logic that you can explain to me regarding incidental combat then I would be very interested in hearing it.

 

 My approach to incidental combat is to think of your level as if you are planning out random encounters that your players would trigger over time.   Typically the monsters are activated early on in the map and given free reign to meet the player almost anywhere.  They're there to simply add tension by being unexpected arrivals to the set pieces already in place.  I typically use a mixture of low and mid-tier level monsters for incidental combat, something that adds either a little extra pressure or more based on the map's already existing pacing.   Flyers, spectres and sergeants or imps are great incidental monsters; hell knights and revs would be my next choices.   

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  • I mostly build out of the stream of creativity i have at the moment, with pretty rare occasion that i make a plan for the map I'm making...
  • When I plan my maps, i usually draw a raw picture of the map layout, top view, and then remake it on the editor plus adding more stuff. Latest map i did with this treatment was for Oops! All Techbases MAP20
  • How do i approach my maps? Mmm, at first i make my map upon some central shape with a what i find a interesting set-piece, mostly based upon horseshoe or just a rectangular (or other weird shapes) room, and with some wild themes that comes in my mind or mostly some stuff that is been stick in my mind from previous maps I've played or seen, as well for other sources like media or real life moments that caught me. Actually the map theme is the most important thing to me!
  • Rooms first, ugly encounter that needs lot of testing later last. And if possible, ALWAYS add a door behind the player spawn lol. Or just make some sort of entry point from where the player coming from (a portal, a outdoor area, a hole/stairs from a cave entrance that is locked like in Slough of despair).
  • Always make the textures scheme first, for the music it depends. Sometimes is based upon it, sometimes comes when I make the map and i add it at the end. But mostly the second choice.
  • I make some small textures edits if needed, I'm absolutely not good at making music. My results are always some chaotic mess, the few moments I tried (last music piece i made was for... Wooo 3 iirc)
  • With some rare occasion for zdoom maps, i tend to stay closer to the original game limits. Also because I'm not at the level to break completely the engine limits

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These days I rarely design on paper but sometimes I'll roughly draw up areas (small sections of the map) on paper. As I start building in the editor, starting is the hardest point. But once some progress is made I get on a roll and I often imagine new areas and how they connect, etc. Other times it is just completely random. I will often spend hours at a time mapping.

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Either A: Completely erratically with no real base to work with

B: Think of an idea and expand it as best as I can

or C: Listen to music. Weirdly I can sometimes get some mapping ideas through music.

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Only been mapping for a couple of months but putting in lots of time because I'm laid up right now.

Anyway, I usually have some sort of theme for a map before I start, but no planning. I examine other maps for general ideas as I am not creative in the artistic sense.

Not exactly sure what you mean by topdown or sideway but if you mean Vertices/Linedefs vs Visual, I do as much as I can now in V/L and finish off in Visual.

Rooms then encounters.

I usually have an idea in mind for textures based on the theme of the map section but textures get changed throughout the build. Music too but I never really change it once I decide.

I generally stick to the Doom 2 textures but I can and do modify and build my own.

I do all my own music. It appears that the Doomworld term for music is "midi" but I don't understand why. I use midi instruments in my compositions, mainly for drums but most of my stuff is live guitar, bass and keyboards that I play myself. Out of 9 maps only one song was written for Doom mapping the rest are mods of stuff I've already done. It's also not traditional Doom music which may be off putting to some if I ever decide to share my maps.

I'm not experienced or creative enough to push any limits on anything.

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First, I think of a theme or idea I want to use for the map then I draw out a rough layout of the map itself. After that I start making the map in Doom Builder and use either the Doom 2 textures/monsters or custom textures/monsters I find on Realm667, depends on what the map is. I usually make the rooms then texture them after I've fully made the outline of the map. After I've created the full layout of the map, I add monsters/puzzles and start testing it for bugs or anything like that. Finally, if I think it's good enough for other people to play, I share it.

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