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Gibbon

Introducing RZDoom (Retro ZDoom) 3.0.1 - Updated April 17 2022

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Exciting concept, will likely watch progress on this. 

 

Just one comment though:

 

2 hours ago, Gibbon said:

it was rebranded from ZDoom64 to ZedDoom, to distinguish it and to keep it separated from Randi's ZDoom.

 

Both of these names are misleading. ZedDoom, phonetically, is identical to how some people pronounce ZDoom already, which could be confusing. ZDoom64 sounds like a Doom64 port with (G)Z-Features. Sadly I've no good suggestions for alternatives...

That said 

2 hours ago, Gibbon said:

'innit mate'

gets my vote! ;)

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Man, at this rate, all the other sourceport devs might as well retire. We got Gibbon just making all of them at this point lmao. Good stuff, fam. You're absolutely insane, but I guess you must just love Doom and programming THAT much. As for the name dilemma Dragonfly mentioned, I also think you'll need to come up with something a little bit more unique to differentiate itself. I can see you want it to be a bit of a nod and wink to ZDoom though so... how about... GibbZoom

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34 minutes ago, Dragonfly said:

Exciting concept, will likely watch progress on this. 

 

Just one comment though:

 

 

Both of these names are misleading. ZedDoom, phonetically, is identical to how some people pronounce ZDoom already, which could be confusing. ZDoom64 sounds like a Doom64 port with (G)Z-Features. Sadly I've no good suggestions for alternatives...

That said 

gets my vote! ;)

 

 

6 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

Man, at this rate, all the other sourceport devs might as well retire. We got Gibbon just making all of them at this point lmao. Good stuff, fam. You're absolutely insane, but I guess you must just love Doom and programming THAT much. As for the name dilemma Dragonfly mentioned, I also think you'll need to come up with something a little bit more unique to differentiate itself. I can see you want it to be a bit of a nod and wink to ZDoom though so... how about... GibbZoom

Haha! Agree with you both, I'm of course open to suggestions.  I think it should at least have a Z in the name.  So hit me with them!

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Zombie Doom

 

Since it's resurrecting a dead port, and losing bits of it. Also it's just fun to say.

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2 minutes ago, Gez said:

Zombie Doom

 

Since it's resurrecting a dead port, and losing bits of it. Also it's just fun to say.

ZombiemanDoom :)

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3 hours ago, Gibbon said:

All Assembler code has been removed from the compilation steps (I read it all and really, the performance gain is negligible nowadays).

 

3 hours ago, Gibbon said:

All in all, a decent, optimised, clean and fast software renderered ZDoom-based source port is what I intend this to be.  With no feature-creep or bloat. 

As far as I can see you've made your task a little more difficult :)

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36 minutes ago, SilverMiner said:

 

As far as I can see you've made your task a little more difficult :)

Not really.  The compiler will produce far better assembler then what most programmers can write today.  Some lines calculating segs is negligible really that and all that assembler would not work on raspberry pi's or Apple Silicon macs.  Which would mean rewriting it all in ARM64 assembler.

 

However well written C++, templating common routines, using fast math all go a long way to achieving that.  I appreciate the small piece of feedback as always :)

Edited by Gibbon

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im confused, will this be adding new features or just polishing existing ones? theres plently of features zdoom never had that i always wanted, although i'd hate to talk about features i always wished zdoom had on a project that doesnt intend to add any new ones. im just confused because im pretty sure reboom's doom wiki article talked about adding new features, but from what i understand pooch was just a direct port of winmbf to modern systems without any improvements, so if this is similar to those im completely lost.

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2 minutes ago, JackBoi said:

im confused, will this be adding new features or just polishing existing ones? theres plently of features zdoom never had that i always wanted, although i'd hate to talk about features i always wished zdoom had on a project that doesnt intend to add any new ones, as i think it would be rude.

Depends how large they are really.  I mean I'm adding extra gibbing and a few other tiny things but no major features or additions, at least not until I have reduced the cruft and cleaned it up.

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4 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

Depends how large they are really.  I mean I'm adding extra gibbing and a few other tiny things but no major features or additions, at least not until I have reduced the cruft and cleaned it up.

i meant tiny features. the features i would have talked about would be an option to disable zdoom's weapon attack alignment and an option to disable the projectile transparency. just "quality of life" stuff i guess. in fact, the weapon attack alignment has pretty much been the only reason why i never use zdoom because it bugs me so much that the game quickly becomes annoying to play.

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2 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

I'll add them to my list along with extra gibbing :)

wow thanks! i actually asked for that "weapon attack alignment" feature on the zdoom forum, but the post was deleted, so i guess im just getting my request fulfilled in another place.

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2 minutes ago, JackBoi said:

wow thanks! i actually asked for that "weapon attack alignment" feature on the zdoom forum, but the post was deleted, so i guess im just getting my request fulfilled in another place.

No worries it is fairly small and as you said a QOL feature.  DW is a friendlier place than those forums.

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Are you sure? The post wasn't deleted, just nobody else replied. For me it was never a problem. Wasn't it requested before?

May be it was one of those ZDoom "fixes", you still fire at the center after all.

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=74012

About ZedDoom i don't know what to say. For the name what about Gibbon's ZDoom or GZDoom? xD

RZDoom? I registered that one just in case but i think you could use it. xD

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5 hours ago, Gibbon said:
  • Demo recording and playback removal (let's face it, it is useless as it desyncs with each new version)

 

Won't you be the one who decides that? Or am I reading this wrong? I thought there was interest in 2.8.1 demo standardization

With the optimizations you're providing i thought this was headed in the demo-compat direction 

 

6 hours ago, Gibbon said:

Because I'm British and saying 'Zee' makes me die inside just a little more each time.

 

Zed-Doom rolls off the tongue like a fistful of peanut butter lol

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@drfrag No no, esta bien :P I'll let you have RZDoom if you'll choose it :) I am a generous person.  I'm sure we can come up with something here.

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6 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

 

Won't you be the one who decides that? Or am I reading this wrong? I thought there was interest in 2.8.1 demo standardization

With the optimizations you're providing i thought this was headed in the demo-compat direction 

 

 

Zed-Doom rolls off the tongue like a fistful of peanut butter lol

I guess but to be honest, I had zero idea of any standardisation planned because I never kept up with these things on the forums.  It's definitely something that I would like as removing them is just because of the constant desyncs.

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I've tried Cold as Hell Special Edition, it runs in software but there are severe slowdowns even on modern versions. I dunno why may be it's about the weather effects.

6 hours ago, Gibbon said:

Win32 upgrades to more recent D3D versions

You mean D3D11? I considered it but i'm not sure about the benefits. I can't do it anyway. I already commented it i think, dpJudas started a D3D11 backend but it was very incomplete.

 

6 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

No no, esta bien :P

I was kidding of course, but i considered doing it at some point.

About demos you haven't made any changes to the core of the engine AFAIK, so it should be still compatible with 2.8.1.

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17 minutes ago, drfrag said:

Are you sure? The post wasn't deleted, just nobody else replied.

sorry, checked back again and it was there. my profile said i didnt make any posts when i went back to check on it after editing the post for clarification this morning, i guess a post just disappears before an edit is approved? i dont really use the zdoom forums so im not particularly knowlageable on the rules and how the site works, so im sorry for thinking it was deleted.

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Correct, right now you can play any 2.8.1 demo on it.

 

Yeah, D3D11 but with the DX9 fallback.  Not many benefits at all, I just don't trust MS to keep that header for directx9 around.  It's probably the last thing I'll do as the Mac stuff is a lot easier :)

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Wonderful to see this happening. And also wonderful that you are crazy enough to not only consider the stupid ideas brought forward to you in private @Gibbon but that you land them so well too.

 

Jval has competition that's for sure. ;)
 

Also shoutout to @drfrag for your ZZDoom work (Yes, another port folks! The more the merrier). Both have their own set of rules carrying the oldskool ZDoom torch :)

 

4 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

Both of these names are misleading. ZedDoom, phonetically, is identical to how some people pronounce ZDoom already, which could be confusing. ZDoom64 sounds like a Doom64 port with (G)Z-Features. Sadly I've no good suggestions for alternatives...

Some historic throwback: ZDoom 64 (With a space) was a custom (and illegal!) port of Doom 64 to ZDoom 2.2.0 back in 2007.

 

ZDoom64 in the basis started as ''ZDoom, but just under 64 bit'' like WinMBF64 used to be a 64-bit update of WinMBF and nothing more. Because 2.9pre just broke a lot of stuff, i discussed with Gibbon the idea of a continuation of ZDoom 2.8.1, but for the modern ages. ZDoom 2.8.1 is finally in a fixed state, but it isn't getting any updates anymore. So with ZedDoom/RZDoom, you get a slimline ZDoom build that should run most things out of the box.

1 hour ago, JackBoi said:

im confused, will this be adding new features or just polishing existing ones? theres plently of features zdoom never had that i always wanted, although i'd hate to talk about features i always wished zdoom had on a project that doesnt intend to add any new ones. im just confused because im pretty sure reboom's doom wiki article talked about adding new features, but from what i understand pooch was just a direct port of winmbf to modern systems without any improvements, so if this is similar to those im completely lost.

This is about minor fixes and additions, but remaining classic. ZZDoom by drfrag is more liberal and has UMAPINFO/DEHEXTRA, for instance.

 

Not so much with RZDoom (I just like this name enough to already use it lol) though.

1 hour ago, Eddie 2077 said:

While I don't have any feature suggestions, RZDoom wouldn't be a bad name imo. It'd stand for Retro ZDoom.

Quoting this for agreement, and it significantly differs still from Doom Retro. It also plays well with the theme :)

27 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

I guess but to be honest, I had zero idea of any standardisation planned because I never kept up with these things on the forums.  It's definitely something that I would like as removing them is just because of the constant desyncs.

I think that would be great. Perhaps @kraflab can lend some tips from the DSDA toolshed? One of the criticisms on the ZDoom codebase are its demo's. If that could be standardized, ZDoom demo's may take a big leap. 2.8.1 compatibility should be a good basis.

25 minutes ago, drfrag said:

I've tried Cold as Hell Special Edition, it runs in software but there are severe slowdowns even on modern versions. I dunno why may be it's about the weather effects.

You mean D3D11? I considered it but i'm not sure about the benefits. I can't do it anyway. I already commented it i think, dpJudas started a D3D11 backend but it was very incomplete.

Pretty much has to be the custom Weather-FX system that comes into play. I remember conversations from back then that Cold As Hell melted most rigs due to it. A bit like Crysis but for Doom i suppose :P Still the idea remains ever the innovative!

 

Currently ZDoom has that DX9 surface, right? This would do the same but under DX11 - Inevitiably this would raise the system requirements.

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2 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

As far as I can see you've made your task a little more difficult :)

The assembly routines were also removed from GZDoom a while ago because it was found out that on modern systems, they were at best negligible, at worst counter-productive.

 

Because yeah, as if programming wasn't complicated enough, but it turns out that what gives better performances on a processor from two decades ago may actually give worse performances on a processor from the last decade.

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23 minutes ago, Gez said:

The assembly routines were also removed from GZDoom a while ago because it was found out that on modern systems, they were at best negligible, at worst counter-productive.

 

Because yeah, as if programming wasn't complicated enough, but it turns out that what gives better performances on a processor from two decades ago may actually give worse performances on a processor from the last decade.

Indeed, don't get me wrong I love assembler coding but it literally took me 10 minutes of reading it to find out it is woefully inefficient on modern multi core systems.  It wouldn't even give you .5 frames more.  It would just make you feel warm and fuzzy that "I am using assembler" ;)

 

RZDoom does roll off the tongue, and you still don't have to say Zee.

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1 hour ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I thought there was interest in 2.8.1 demo standardization

As far as demo competition goes, we already have 2.8.1 - demos won't desync in a future version because there is no future version. The only zdoom fork that would be used for speed demo recording would be a dsda-branded and moderated fork with changes and alterations that would be irrelevant for the audience outside speedrunning. Of course there are other applications for demos, but since I was pinged in this thread that is the stance of dsda.

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Thanks Kraflab for that clarity, guess I can try to stabilise the demo format enough that it won't desync each version.

 

Ok, so thanks to the feedback, it is now RZDoom (Retro Z(ed)Doom) :P.  I've updated the Mac and CMake stuff to reflect this, renamed the repo.  I'll do the Windows projects and binary again when I'm back on it.

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Huh, this is interesting -- something that's been on my mind for a while now is that most of ZDoom's "it's super-inaccurate" reputation is because of poor choices of default settings more than anything else. There's plenty of compat/gameplay options that, with a bit of fiddling, can let you configure the port to be Close Enough(tm) to the base game that all but the most geeky of users won't be able to tell the difference (excluding multiplayer and demos).

 

It's been a while since I've looked at this, so I need to comb through it again and come up with a list of suggestions, but would you consider changing some of the defaults so it's a closer-to-Doom experience out-of-the-box? Funny enough, the port already solves a bunch of these already by not having the GL renderer (GZDoom's default rendering options are way far from how the software renderer looks), so that's one victory already. :P

 

[EDIT] Hmm, if this port is based on 2.9pre, that means it has at least some level of ZScript support, right? Having just the basics is still a gigantic step up from 2.8.1 DECORATE, so this might be an interesting thing for mods to target.

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