Doomworld Community Top Hardest WADs of All Time

[UnknDoomer]

In continue of "top of the tops" things that existed here and there, same as also those three topics - 1 & 2 & 3, decide to make another one to, well, cover another list. It seems that nowadays we have a lot of "slaughterfest" fans here, or, perhaps, rather a people who want to push their limits / find where they are, same as newcomers that want to try one or another, but sometimes not sure where to look.

 

Sort of the same conditions - vote for 3-5 WADs with up to 10 points each, i.e. total maximum is 30, but with an exception - count extra very hard wads, which might require a lot of time and saves, but that can be beaten in from the standpoint of a conditionally fair trial / pure challange is fine, but see no point to count sort of "hard joke" wads in the opposite side. In other words - Sunlust or No Chance is fine, abstract Plutonia 7 example (not specifically P7) is not.

So additional points are:

- possible to beat / beaten by someone on UV difficulty. Will be marked as [Nicknames list; {conditions}] tag at start.
- mods, that might make wad ever harder, allowed, as for example - Complex Doom, but without disable / or changing the mod during the playground.
- "impossible" wads, where is no any image/video confirmation that somebody completed it / or you are sort of first in the line of it, will be moved in separate list.

 

* Heretic/Hexen wads might be included too to make more overall comparing picture, which previously, seems to, mosty never was covered.

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Current Tally. Voters: 4. Wads: 13. Maps: 1.

 

1. Dimensions (2017) [20: Nefelibeta: 10, Pseudonaut: 10] {1x5}. [Wiki]

[UnknDoomer; UV; Saves; GzDoom] 2. No Chance (2008) [17: UnknDoomer: 8, LadyMistDragon: 9] {1X}. [Top 25 Missed Cacowards] [Mods+] [Wiki]

3. Abandon (2020) [9: Nefelibeta: 9] {1x17}. [Cacowards 2020] [Wiki] {currently Beta 1 available}

[UnknDoomer; UV + Complex Doom; Saves; GzDoom] 4. Plutonia 2 (2009) [8: UnknDoomer: 8, LadyMistDragon: 9]. {4x8}. [Cacowards 2009] [Mods+] [Wiki]

5. Deus Vult (2004) [8: LadyMistDragon: 8] {1x4}. [Cacowards 2009] [Wiki]

6. Stardate 20X7 (2016) [8: Nefelibeta: 8] {1x11}. [Cacowards 2017] [Wiki]

7. Toilet of the Gods (2016) [8: Pseudonaut: 8] {1x4}. [Top 25 Missed Cacowards] [Wiki]

8. Sunlust (2015) [7: Pseudonaut: 7] {1x32}. [Cacowards 2015] [Wiki]

[UnknDoomer; UV + Complex Doom; Saves; GzDoom]  9. Going Down (2014) [6: UnknDoomer] {4x8}. [Cacowards 2014] [Mods+] [Wiki]

10. Combat Shock 2 (2012) [6: LadyMistDragon: 6] {1x8}. [Cacowards 2012] [Wiki]

11. 180 Minutes Pour Vivre (2020) [6: LadyMistDragon: 6] {1x32}. [Cacowards 2020] [Wiki]

[UnknDoomer; UV + Complex Doom; Saves; GzDoom] 12. BTSX EP2 (2014) [4: UnknDoomer] {4x7}. [Cacowards 2014] [Mods+] [Wiki]

[UnknDoomer; UV + Complex Doom; Saves; GzDoom] 13. The Plutonia Experiment (1996) [4: UnknDoomer] {1x32}. [Mods+]  [Wiki]

14. Masters of Chaos (2012) [2: LadyMistDragon: 2] {2x10, 1x11}. [Heretic]

"I Chose the Impossible" Tally. Voters: 0. Wads: 0. Maps: 0.

1. ...

 

"Worthy to mention" List:

 

1. LadyMistDragon: Curse of D'Sparil [Heretic], Plutonia, Going Down, Stardate 20X6.

Edited November 28, 2022 by UnknDoomer

[Jacek Bourne]

I don’t think voting for what is the hardest wad is a good idea because most people will probably not know about the highest challenge sets and therefore vote for something easier and more widely known like Sunlust.

 

Here is a list of many difficult wads that may be partially inaccurate in rating difficulty however it has a decent amount of accuracy. It does have a decent amount of TAS only wads though.

 

 

The Wad Progression for Skill Improvement thread would also work in this regard.

 

 

 

[UnknDoomer]

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because most people will probably not know about the highest challenge sets and therefore vote for something easier and more widely known

This is what I see from the first link. Cyberdreams, for example, don't ever have a rating and it's puzzle wad in overall. Same as there is some well know regular onces, where, by other hand, something like Stardate 20X6 doesn't exist in the list in total, but was in other cases.

 

Second list is a short one and, once again, have a plenty sort of regular things in.

 

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that may be partially inaccurate in rating difficulty

Which leads to it's might be not better / see no point to not proceed further with mine in that case. Same as, perhaps, you can underrate some comminuty members and their knowlege too.

 

So. I'll stick to original point. Will see what we can create here in addition to existing onces.

Edited December 16, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Redneckerz]

15 hours ago, UnknDoomer said:

Which leads to it's isn't better / see no point to not proceed further with mine in that case.

What harms this more is that this threwd sounds very similar and you even list some examples yourself.

 

Therefore on the outset it does not look compelling to post in.

15 hours ago, UnknDoomer said:

 

Same as, perhaps, you underrate some comminuty members and their knowlege.

I do not understand this what seems to be jab.

[UnknDoomer]

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What harms this more is that this threwd sounds very similar and you even list some examples yourself. 

This forum, same as other placements, has long history, same as some things might be more or less covered before. Still as new topics come in everyday and especially here, as rules told, is preferable to make a new one instead of bump old one. My examples is just examples and I see enough difference here to form the rating list with actually another criterias.

 

Also. We can add Heretic/Hexen onces.

 

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this what seems to be jab.

If you count it like that then a rhetorical question - Jacek Bourne's message doesn't look like it to you? Or yours to me? If something not useful for you it's doesn't mean it might be useless to someone else.

 

Anyhow, I'm not here to make empty talk.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[UnknDoomer]

* Beat mentioned on UV.

 

1. Plutonia 2 - 8. For "all wrong reasons" mainly because it's two secret maps. In addition I've played it with Complex Doom on UV and anything else, that I have met, is not comparable in complexity and number of enemies at the moment, because all other wads/maps at least give you a some sort of temporary save spot / strategy to use. Plutonia 2 don't such and also sometimes make a bet on clear random. Wad throws into a test on the brink, but on the brink of passable one if you know what you do.

 

2. No Chance - 8.

 

3. Going Down - 6. Pretty good wad by it's self, which has a pack of extra tough maps, like M13 "Deep Trouble", M20 "The Mouth of Madness", M31 "Stairs Crazy", M32 "Roof Rage".

 

4. BTSX EP2 - 4. For M31 "Fire King Says No Cheating".

 

5. The Plutonia Experiment - 4. It kind of started from here. If you think that Plutonia is simple nowadays, then try to play it on UV without any source ports, GzDoom or PrBoom, or whatever, in pure DosBox. It will change your mind.

Valliant, BTSX EP1, Stardate 20X6, The Ultimate Doom E4, some others, has several tough moments too, but not so close to the listed in my opinion by different reasons.

Edited December 19, 2021 by UnknDoomer

[Andromeda]

Stardate 20X6 is easier than Plutonia? lol

[UnknDoomer]

@Andromeda, if you have some points to pick, I can add them into the list. Might change the overall end picture.

[UnknDoomer]

@Egregor shared some interesting ideas, so I decide to made a little bump of this thread in, well, second attempt to fill the list. Additional critireas been added into the first message.
 

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Hmm, yes, interesting idea. While I think this could serve as a guide to point newer folks toward a solid difficulty curve I do see a few issues with it.

How much a player enjoys a mapset is subjective, while difficulty is, at least in theory, an objective measurement.

The entire concept of "difficultly" breaks down at a certain point for everyone IE at a certain point for every player a level or map set is just not beatable/completable, and unless we had a way to track % completed by maybe taking monsters killed divided by total monsters it's hard to quantity difficulty of uncompleted maps. In that regard most players then are using a more crude measuring stick; "was the level completed; yes or no?".

Broken difficulty, maps not beatable by ANYONE are not considered to be well designed levels, but will be difficult to weed out of this list as the hypothetical "maybe some day someone will be able to complete it, but I wasn't able to" will always exist. Perhaps there should be an "unbeaten" or "undefeated" category that can only be changed once someone posts video proof that they completed it?

Another issue is that there are difficulties built into the game and levels, and not everyone is playing on UV, but for the purposes of your thread we should probably be basing difficulty on the UV setting.

Mods (like Brutal Doom) also affect the difficulty. This could skew assessment. Unless a player ALWAYS uses the same Mod or NEVER uses any Mods comparisons between levels will be inaccurate.

Edited May 13, 2022 by UnknDoomer

[LadyMistDragon]

No Chance: 9.  - I don't even want to try this on UV. You're surrounded literally everywhere

Deus Vult: 8  -More of a grind than anything, though difficulty really starts picking up once you're underground. End of Days is a huge slog, and the last room is just all kinds of stupid bullshit

Combat Shock 2: 6 - More managable than either of those, but close to impossible whenever Revenants are at play, and that last map (not the bonus map) is so fucking painful and tedious. "Sign of Evil," says it all.

180 Minutes Por Vivre: 5 - Starts out quite modest at first, nice and gradual upclimb with a few spikes, than goes down briefly around 21 before roaring back at Map 23. The last few maps especially are murderous, the Icon of Sin fight in Map 30 might be harder than the one in Deus Vult because moving around is probably harder

Master of Chaos: 2 - If you're playing keyboard-only, it's probably closer to a 4. At any rate, each episode increased in difficulty. Though the end of E2 throws 4 Maulotaurs at you over lava near the end, E3 manages to up the stakes in the last few maps.

 

Unranked: Combat Shock, Curse of D'Sparil, Plutonia, Going Down, Stardate 20X6. It was quite close between Masters of Chaos and Stardate 20X6 but I wanted a Heretic wad so there:) Curse of D'Sparil...is more grindy than hard, tbh. Best played with Wrath of Chronos or something similar.

 

 

[Nefelibeta]

Dimensions: 10 Shit is crazy

Abandon: 9 I'd probably rate it a bit lower but truth is every map is so goddamn long that it would be very difficult to try demo later maps.

Stardate20x7: 8 Almost every map is pretty fucked.

[UnknDoomer]

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No Chance: 9.  - I don't even want to try this on UV. You're surrounded literally everywhere

From my point of view it's kinda interesting experience for hardcore one players who are looking to "extra feel" where their own boundaries are, well, in compare to some other positions in the list. The name fully justifies itself, but the map is nevertheless seems passable on UV.
 

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Unranked

I guess I will add "worthy to mention" list at the moment, without links and kind. Perhaps someone will vote for one later and I'll move them on in the main list then.

[Pseudonaut]

Dimensions: 10

Toilet of the Gods: 8

Sunlust: 7

 

Would name more if not for the limitations. I agree with Jacek Bourne's statement about voting for hard wads, though; it's not going to produce even remotely accurate results. Dimensions is vastly more difficult than almost every other wad mentioned so far.

[UnknDoomer]

Would name more if not for the limitations

If the avg mentions will become longer then usual, i.e. more people will want to form longer lists then, I guess, we can add 30 additional point to, will see.

 

[UnknDoomer]

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Master of Chaos: 2 - If you're playing keyboard-only, it's probably closer to a 4. At any rate, each episode increased in difficulty. Though the end of E2 throws 4 Maulotaurs at you over lava near the end

Seems to be rare thing, but have seen some of such encounters. Difficulty can vary in that case, if that the end of the episode, but not in the start or the middle then, I guess, it's not so hard? I didn't play this one especially.

 

As for keyboard / mouse part. Back in the day I've played a lot with arrows and ctrl for shooting, Heretic including. Tried a pure (without source ports and etc.) Plutonia back in the end of 2021 on UV with that condition. There is indeed a difference, but I would not say that it is radical from the position of an experienced player.

 

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Curse of D'Sparil...is more grindy than hard, tbh. Best played with Wrath of Chronos or something similar.

Quest for the Crystal Skulls looks like fit in the same spot.