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ThatKidBobo

Imagination Beyond Demo

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 So I made this mod for Doom 2 as a hobby, and I used the Doom 2 base textures in the maps. I called it beyond because it's beyond what ugly maps I expected, but mostly because it's a cool name. This is the first wad I have ever released to public. These are the first 9 maps of the project, I am planning to complete all the 32 maps. I really want to see people's reactions to this wad and get reviews that will help me improve this. I periodically release better versions of the map, by listenning to the reviews. A big thank you to everyone who tried this out, and told me what they thought.

 

 These maps are made for GZDoom, works on most versions in these 2 years, but the latest version would be best. Play with the compatibility setting on default. Play on Normal (Middle) difficulty because I was too lazy to implement the others.

 

 Please play with dynamic lights on, it makes all of this look much better, for better soundingmusic use Arachno Soundfont or a soundfont that resembles the Roland SC-55 sound. Set sector brightness on Dark. Don't play with infinite height.

 

 Read the ReadMe.txt for more info.

 

 Please try this out, I really want to see what you think about this, thanks.


Download to the latest version:https://www.mediafire.com/file/e06dsuqnuzxtu24/Imagination_Beyond_Demo_V.1.1.3.zip/file

 

Footage of the maps:

(Only the first episode is complete and avalible.)

Edited by ThatKidBobo : updated info, added GAMEINFO and MAPINFO lumps

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As someone who's never made a single map, I don't always comment on other people's works. Some first mapping efforts are amazing, some aren't so great, but all are better than mine as I have made no maps. I wasn't necessarily going to write anything about this, but then I got to Map 4, and boy did I enjoy it, so I went back to Map 1 and played through again, this time paying more attention to the maps. I played continuously in Zandronum on UV. (It would help to mention what the compatibility settings are in your first post. I know you say to play with GZDoom in the text file, but it helps to have this info easily readable in the thread)

 

Before I go through the maps individually, I think it's safe to say that you're better off focusing on a few maps at a time if you're new to it. Take people's feedback on board and work on those first before carrying on with more maps.

 

Map 1: Seems to be a HOM in the sky.

Map 2: This secret was weirdly textured. The map would be quite tedious for someone who didn't find this Shotgun secret, though it is fairly short. The texturing choice (Wolfenstein blue) in the Chainsaw secret feels really out of place, even for a secret. It also wasn't clear where the exit was, and first time through I exited before being able to explore the whole map.

Map 3: Are you intending the maps to also be completable from a Pistol start? If so, you'll want to give at least a Shotgun in the opening area. The barriers at the start go through the floor, but this map was also full of frustratingly narrow locations which hinder the movement and make the map feel a bit clunky. I wasn't too sure what the platform after the yellow key was for as you can't get the Red Key from there, and you come back to this part of the map later on anyway. The Baron by the exit doesn't really serve any purpose other than to be an annoying fight in a very narrow walkway area. There's a notable increase in monster density here. You introduce an AV, and also have a mini-slaughter section with HKs and Barons. It's not a problem as such, but it did catch me off guard based on how Map 2 played.

Map 4: Awesome. Especially from a Pistol start, there's nothing you can really do except press forward as there is too much incoming fire from the other side of the canyon, so that's basically what I did until I was all the way on the other side by the Mancubii. There seems to be just the right frequency and density of monsters here to allow you to push forward with the SSG, but still have danger of being trapped, especially by the Demons across from the Cyberdemon. Once you're round there, it's more plain sailing on the way back, but the narrow ledges mean you do have to be careful. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a couple of teleporters down at the bottom in case anyone does fall off. All in all, this was one of the most fun maps I've played in months. I'd maybe also consider a Backpack here, because although there's a lot of ammo, I did have to backtrack a couple of times as I was running as I got near the end, and had to go back quite far to fill up.

Map 5: Of the first 5 maps, this is probably the one that needs the most rethinking. It kind of feels like masses of monsters have just been thrown in with less thought than in the previous maps. However the start is a nice combat piece and it's certainly challenging, though cover is provided to be able to dodge the AV shots. It's easy to die here, but it's also at the start of the map so not much time would be lost. The route to the Blue Key is a bit of a slog if you go this way first. I used the RL to clear out a bunch of monsters, but otherwise using the SSG is fairly tedious, and it's not that dangerous. The mass of HKs are easily killed with the ample amount of BFG ammo you provide. I'd probably thin out the number of monsters here. How do you want the combat to play out? For example, it seems you want players to use the RL in the Red Key area, but it's perfectly possible to get the BFG first and use that to really decimate the enemies. Where you give player choice, it may alter how they approach the encounters. You probably also don't need 2 Invulnerabilities in this section here either. The Soul Sphere secret is also not much of a secret as it's obvious as you walk past it how to get it. The Yellow Key path was quite interesting, though the end fight was a bit of a drag as you provided an Invulnerability which completely trivialises the encounter. I just grabbed it, rushed the room that had the mass of AVs and killed them all.

 

In all three routes, there were no enemies that spawned in after you collected the Key. One common approach to using AVs is to have them spawn in previous areas, often once a Key has been collected. Given that you're using them in this map anyway, I would consider having an AV spawn back in the central location (or near the entrance to this route) after collecting the Blue Key, as it might make its way towards you and start resurrecting enemies. This is less useful for the Red Key (as you can just circle your way out) or the Yellow Key (as many of the monsters are AVs themselves) but could still be done. You also provide way too much ammo for the BFG in this map and while I would still get rid of some, if you had some post-Key ambushes, it would justify some of it. I'm exiting the map with 50 Rockets and 300 Cells, which means my experience on subsequent maps will be wildly different to anyone who Pistol starts. I'm not sure if you're planning to balance for both of these approaches, but it's something to bear in mind that once you've given the BFG, it has the potential to trivialise fights that you may intend to be very difficult for someone Pistol starting. Overall this one felt like a mini slaughtermap, though there's more to these kind of maps than just throwing monsters in a room together.

Map 6: There's some wacky HOM on the boundaries which made this quite the eyesore! I'm not 100% sure what you want the player to do here, as you can go behind the starting location and make your way to the exit in under 20 seconds shooting no monsters. To me this layout looks like something which would benefit from having switches at the end of sections which raise walkways or lower teleporters to the next section which ultimately leads you to the final platform with the exit. A bit like Map 4, there's a lot of projectiles flying around, which again encourages you to be on the move.

Map 7: Pistol starting this seems extremely difficult. The dark section in the caves is honestly annoying. Not being able to see for a while is ok, but the narrow hallways making it hard to dodge homing Revenant rockets are getting a bit repetitive now. There's a HOM just outside the Hell Knight cave section. (And at the exit)

Map 8: More HOMs in the distance. A map like this is a good case for providing a bit of a "stash" at the start. Clearing the initial area is no mean feat as projectiles from the far end of the map will eventually make their way over to you. I'd probably move the Soul Sphere from the nearby secret to make it obvious, then give a SSG, CG and RL at the start. The Yellow Skull Key seems more or less pointless as the door it opens is right beside it. The Mancubii in the narrow sections afterwards aren't difficult, but killing lots of the same monster in dark tight corridors can only be fun for so long. (It occurred to me only now that maybe I was using the wrong light settings as you did mention it in your text file) I've found myself getting stuck on decorations (like trees) a lot as the maps have gone on, which has been incredibly frustrating. The section after this where you emerge back up onto open ground is absolutely insane because the direction you need to travel is almost directly in the line of fire of everything on the far island, which means you have a ton of projectiles heading directly at you. While some monsters may have been killed on the far side from earlier return fire, you have a few Arachnatrons over there and they tend to do well in extended long range infights purely because of their continuous fire. It resulted in an absolute ton of incoming projectiles and it took me multiple goes to even survive this section. After that, the rest of the map isn't too bad, though there was a Cacodemon partially stuck in the curved cave section just before the last part. Having finished it, I now think a Megasphere is probably useful for the start of the map.

Map 9: And here is an example of a map which is completely trivialised in continuous play. I have a BFG, so I can just one or two shot the Spider Mastermind and the level is over in seconds.

 

As you identified yourself, texture choice could use some work but my main thoughts would be:

 

- Don't overuse narrow paths with enemies, especially ones that take a while to kill.

- Map 5 enemies need rethinking. (Nothing wrong with the layout)

- Map 6 possibly needs a redesign, or its purpose made clear.

- (A lot of the maps were dark, though as I said, this may have been my own fault)

- If you're intending for the maps to be playable from Pistol starts, then particularly in Maps 6 onwards, think about how you distribute weapons in the early parts of the maps.

 

Hopefully others will play this and also give you feedback. Overall this was pretty fun to play through!

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13 hours ago, Degree23 said:

As someone who's never made a single map, I don't always comment on other people's works. Some first mapping efforts are amazing, some aren't so great, but all are better than mine as I have made no maps. I wasn't necessarily going to write anything about this, but then I got to Map 4, and boy did I enjoy it, so I went back to Map 1 and played through again, this time paying more attention to the maps. I played continuously in Zandronum on UV. (It would help to mention what the compatibility settings are in your first post. I know you say to play with GZDoom in the text file, but it helps to have this info easily readable in the thread)

 

Before I go through the maps individually, I think it's safe to say that you're better off focusing on a few maps at a time if you're new to it. Take people's feedback on board and work on those first before carrying on with more maps.

 

Map 1: Seems to be a HOM in the sky.

Map 2: This secret was weirdly textured. The map would be quite tedious for someone who didn't find this Shotgun secret, though it is fairly short. The texturing choice (Wolfenstein blue) in the Chainsaw secret feels really out of place, even for a secret. It also wasn't clear where the exit was, and first time through I exited before being able to explore the whole map.

Map 3: Are you intending the maps to also be completable from a Pistol start? If so, you'll want to give at least a Shotgun in the opening area. The barriers at the start go through the floor, but this map was also full of frustratingly narrow locations which hinder the movement and make the map feel a bit clunky. I wasn't too sure what the platform after the yellow key was for as you can't get the Red Key from there, and you come back to this part of the map later on anyway. The Baron by the exit doesn't really serve any purpose other than to be an annoying fight in a very narrow walkway area. There's a notable increase in monster density here. You introduce an AV, and also have a mini-slaughter section with HKs and Barons. It's not a problem as such, but it did catch me off guard based on how Map 2 played.

Map 4: Awesome. Especially from a Pistol start, there's nothing you can really do except press forward as there is too much incoming fire from the other side of the canyon, so that's basically what I did until I was all the way on the other side by the Mancubii. There seems to be just the right frequency and density of monsters here to allow you to push forward with the SSG, but still have danger of being trapped, especially by the Demons across from the Cyberdemon. Once you're round there, it's more plain sailing on the way back, but the narrow ledges mean you do have to be careful. It probably wouldn't hurt to have a couple of teleporters down at the bottom in case anyone does fall off. All in all, this was one of the most fun maps I've played in months. I'd maybe also consider a Backpack here, because although there's a lot of ammo, I did have to backtrack a couple of times as I was running as I got near the end, and had to go back quite far to fill up.

Map 5: Of the first 5 maps, this is probably the one that needs the most rethinking. It kind of feels like masses of monsters have just been thrown in with less thought than in the previous maps. However the start is a nice combat piece and it's certainly challenging, though cover is provided to be able to dodge the AV shots. It's easy to die here, but it's also at the start of the map so not much time would be lost. The route to the Blue Key is a bit of a slog if you go this way first. I used the RL to clear out a bunch of monsters, but otherwise using the SSG is fairly tedious, and it's not that dangerous. The mass of HKs are easily killed with the ample amount of BFG ammo you provide. I'd probably thin out the number of monsters here. How do you want the combat to play out? For example, it seems you want players to use the RL in the Red Key area, but it's perfectly possible to get the BFG first and use that to really decimate the enemies. Where you give player choice, it may alter how they approach the encounters. You probably also don't need 2 Invulnerabilities in this section here either. The Soul Sphere secret is also not much of a secret as it's obvious as you walk past it how to get it. The Yellow Key path was quite interesting, though the end fight was a bit of a drag as you provided an Invulnerability which completely trivialises the encounter. I just grabbed it, rushed the room that had the mass of AVs and killed them all.

 

In all three routes, there were no enemies that spawned in after you collected the Key. One common approach to using AVs is to have them spawn in previous areas, often once a Key has been collected. Given that you're using them in this map anyway, I would consider having an AV spawn back in the central location (or near the entrance to this route) after collecting the Blue Key, as it might make its way towards you and start resurrecting enemies. This is less useful for the Red Key (as you can just circle your way out) or the Yellow Key (as many of the monsters are AVs themselves) but could still be done. You also provide way too much ammo for the BFG in this map and while I would still get rid of some, if you had some post-Key ambushes, it would justify some of it. I'm exiting the map with 50 Rockets and 300 Cells, which means my experience on subsequent maps will be wildly different to anyone who Pistol starts. I'm not sure if you're planning to balance for both of these approaches, but it's something to bear in mind that once you've given the BFG, it has the potential to trivialise fights that you may intend to be very difficult for someone Pistol starting. Overall this one felt like a mini slaughtermap, though there's more to these kind of maps than just throwing monsters in a room together.

Map 6: There's some wacky HOM on the boundaries which made this quite the eyesore! I'm not 100% sure what you want the player to do here, as you can go behind the starting location and make your way to the exit in under 20 seconds shooting no monsters. To me this layout looks like something which would benefit from having switches at the end of sections which raise walkways or lower teleporters to the next section which ultimately leads you to the final platform with the exit. A bit like Map 4, there's a lot of projectiles flying around, which again encourages you to be on the move.

Map 7: Pistol starting this seems extremely difficult. The dark section in the caves is honestly annoying. Not being able to see for a while is ok, but the narrow hallways making it hard to dodge homing Revenant rockets are getting a bit repetitive now. There's a HOM just outside the Hell Knight cave section. (And at the exit)

Map 8: More HOMs in the distance. A map like this is a good case for providing a bit of a "stash" at the start. Clearing the initial area is no mean feat as projectiles from the far end of the map will eventually make their way over to you. I'd probably move the Soul Sphere from the nearby secret to make it obvious, then give a SSG, CG and RL at the start. The Yellow Skull Key seems more or less pointless as the door it opens is right beside it. The Mancubii in the narrow sections afterwards aren't difficult, but killing lots of the same monster in dark tight corridors can only be fun for so long. (It occurred to me only now that maybe I was using the wrong light settings as you did mention it in your text file) I've found myself getting stuck on decorations (like trees) a lot as the maps have gone on, which has been incredibly frustrating. The section after this where you emerge back up onto open ground is absolutely insane because the direction you need to travel is almost directly in the line of fire of everything on the far island, which means you have a ton of projectiles heading directly at you. While some monsters may have been killed on the far side from earlier return fire, you have a few Arachnatrons over there and they tend to do well in extended long range infights purely because of their continuous fire. It resulted in an absolute ton of incoming projectiles and it took me multiple goes to even survive this section. After that, the rest of the map isn't too bad, though there was a Cacodemon partially stuck in the curved cave section just before the last part. Having finished it, I now think a Megasphere is probably useful for the start of the map.

Map 9: And here is an example of a map which is completely trivialised in continuous play. I have a BFG, so I can just one or two shot the Spider Mastermind and the level is over in seconds.

 

As you identified yourself, texture choice could use some work but my main thoughts would be:

 

- Don't overuse narrow paths with enemies, especially ones that take a while to kill.

- Map 5 enemies need rethinking. (Nothing wrong with the layout)

- Map 6 possibly needs a redesign, or its purpose made clear.

- (A lot of the maps were dark, though as I said, this may have been my own fault)

- If you're intending for the maps to be playable from Pistol starts, then particularly in Maps 6 onwards, think about how you distribute weapons in the early parts of the maps.

 

Hopefully others will play this and also give you feedback. Overall this was pretty fun to play through!

 Thank you for this review, this is very detailed and I'm very thankful for this. I will be fixing some of the issues you pointed out, and will release a new version within a few hours. Also the reason I want this to played with GZDoom is mainly the HOM effect, since they appear as a sky instead of the buggy mess on GZDoom. I mainly made these maps for pistol starts, however I forgot to mention this on the ReadMe file, I will point that out in the next version. Again thank you very much.

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I tested Beyond Demo v1.1 Imagination Beyond (Demov1).wad with LZDoom, I was not able to complete this WAD. I stopped after MAP03. Overall, great attention to detail, the map layouts were very believable locations. This WAD was actually funny for me. You intended to have the player fight waves of enemies in the maps. The enemies ended up fighting each other. My recommendations, larger enemies are not able to travel through narrow corridors. The corridors need to be wider. Placing enemies in rows will cause the enemies to attack each other. Place enemies in a single row, and break up the maps into smaller segments to improve the enemy placement. Smaller map segments are more manageable to build compared to larger, and open areas. Stick with building basic DOOM maps until you are ready to build more complex maps.

 

MAP02 requires jumping to proceed to the Red Key area. The lift in the Yellow Key area only activates 1 time. Include jumping, crouching, or free look requirements in the README document.

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On 2/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, FireWarden1000 said:

I tested Beyond Demo v1.1 Imagination Beyond (Demov1).wad with LZDoom, I was not able to complete this WAD. I stopped after MAP03. Overall, great attention to detail, the map layouts were very believable locations. This WAD was actually funny for me. You intended to have the player fight waves of enemies in the maps. The enemies ended up fighting each other. My recommendations, larger enemies are not able to travel through narrow corridors. The corridors need to be wider. Placing enemies in rows will cause the enemies to attack each other. Place enemies in a single row, and break up the maps into smaller segments to improve the enemy placement. Smaller map segments are more manageable to build compared to larger, and open areas. Stick with building basic DOOM maps until you are ready to build more complex maps.

 

MAP02 requires jumping to proceed to the Red Key area. The lift in the Yellow Key area only activates 1 time. Include jumping, crouching, or free look requirements in the README document.

Thanks for testing it out, it really means alot to me. The reason most of the large encounters have infighting is to lower the difficulty (so I can play it too), the MAP03 red key section does not require jumping, you have to follow the corridor with the hell knights, and proceed through the cave. Also I put large monsters near tight corridors, so that you have to take cover, shoot then go back. However this didn't turn out how I planned it to be and it essentially made the maps a little more annoying, so I kept them for the maps to be annoying (I don't know what I'm doing). Anyway thanks for the review, I'll try to fix these issues if I ever release a newer version. Again, thanks.

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1 part of MAP03 in Imagination Beyond had several Demons running into each other, and the Cyberdemon would shoot rockets at the Demons. Eventually the enemies in the map would start attacking the Cyberdemon, and then the Cyberdemon would be stuck in the map. Wider pathways for enemies will be necessary for the larger enemies, or the larger enemies will get stuck in the map. My question is "how did the enemies appear in certain locations in the map if the pathways are not wide enough for the enemies to even move around?" Map testing is very important for map development to avoid problems that include the scale of locations, map details, texture alignment, enemy placement, item placement, etc. Feel free to release a new version of the Beyond Imagination when you have the chance.

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On 2/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, FireWarden1000 said:

I tested Beyond Demo v1.1 Imagination Beyond (Demov1).wad with LZDoom, I was not able to complete this WAD. I stopped after MAP03. Overall, great attention to detail, the map layouts were very believable locations. This WAD was actually funny for me. You intended to have the player fight waves of enemies in the maps. The enemies ended up fighting each other. My recommendations, larger enemies are not able to travel through narrow corridors. The corridors need to be wider. Placing enemies in rows will cause the enemies to attack each other. Place enemies in a single row, and break up the maps into smaller segments to improve the enemy placement. Smaller map segments are more manageable to build compared to larger, and open areas. Stick with building basic DOOM maps until you are ready to build more complex maps.

 

MAP02 requires jumping to proceed to the Red Key area. The lift in the Yellow Key area only activates 1 time. Include jumping, crouching, or free look requirements in the README document.

 Thanks for the review, I placed the monsters like that because I want them to infight (I play bad). No part requires jumping in this wad, to access the red key you have to go to the corridor where the hell knights are. The corridor also leads to the cave that you can also access by using the yellow key area elevator, so the lift only activating once doesn't create much problem.

 I will try to fix most of the issues addressed here on the next version that I upload (possibly with the next episode), again thanks for the advices.

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If you have any questions, let me know, and I will see if I can help you out. You don't need to build 8 good DOOM maps in a WAD. If 1 map in the WAD is good, and lasts at least 10 minutes, that is a map that I would review. If I do not provide a score to a map review, the score would be very low. Instead of providing bad scores, I ask the map builder to include adjustments to the maps to improve the review score of the WAD. I do not always know what the map builder intends to build, every DOOM map is different. People build speed maps, people build DOOM mods, people build arena maps, etc.

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1 minute ago, FireWarden1000 said:

If you have any questions, let me know, and I will see if I can help you out. You don't need to build 8 good DOOM maps in a WAD. If 1 map in the WAD is good, and lasts at least 10 minutes, that is a map that I would review. If I do not provide a score to a map review, the score would be very low. Instead of providing bad scores, I ask the map builder to include adjustments to the maps to improve the review score of the WAD. I do not always know what the map builder intends to build, every DOOM map is different. People build speed maps, people build DOOM mods, people build arena maps, etc.

Well I have one important question, since I'm using default doom 2 textures, lots of stuff looks bad in this (you know the dirt and all), it wasn't disorienting or anyhthing right?

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Just had a quick go at it and I wonder what the intended method on map 4 is to get past the cyberdemon? SSG him to death or try to squeeze past him?

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5 hours ago, TheCyberDruid said:

Just had a quick go at it and I wonder what the intended method on map 4 is to get past the cyberdemon? SSG him to death or try to squeeze past him?

You have to ssg it, however it is a bit tedious I must agree

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7 minutes ago, ThatKidBobo said:

You have to ssg it, however it is a bit tedious I must agree

 

I figured as much. Would be an idea to put a plasma secret in the map :)

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Just now, TheCyberDruid said:

 

I figured as much. Would be an idea to put a plasma secret in the map :)

Good idea

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The overall graphics of the WAD were well designed. The map layouts were not the problem, but I have not played the Imagination Beyond WAD in a long time. I tested out Imagination Beyond with Brutal Doom, and the maps actually look better with the Brutal Doom mod. The maps were faster paced with Brutal Doom compared to playing Imagination Beyond with DOOM2 only. Are you building a Brutal Doom for DOOM2 map? The map plays better with Brutal Doom.

 

I figured out the layout of MAP02. After you get the Yellow Key, you return to the beginning of the map, and use the Yellow Key on the Yellow Key Door. After completing the Yellow Key room, you find the Red Key, and the Yellow Key room is connected to the Red Key Room. To access the Red Key Room from the Yellow Key Room, you only need to jump into the area which does not break the map. You don't need to jump in MAP02 to complete the map. If you want to cheat the map, and skip the Red Key Room, you would jump to reach the Red Key from the Yellow Key Room cave, then exit the map.

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9 hours ago, FireWarden1000 said:

The overall graphics of the WAD were well designed. The map layouts were not the problem, but I have not played the Imagination Beyond WAD in a long time. I tested out Imagination Beyond with Brutal Doom, and the maps actually look better with the Brutal Doom mod. The maps were faster paced with Brutal Doom compared to playing Imagination Beyond with DOOM2 only. Are you building a Brutal Doom for DOOM2 map? The map plays better with Brutal Doom.

 

I figured out the layout of MAP02. After you get the Yellow Key, you return to the beginning of the map, and use the Yellow Key on the Yellow Key Door. After completing the Yellow Key room, you find the Red Key, and the Yellow Key room is connected to the Red Key Room. To access the Red Key Room from the Yellow Key Room, you only need to jump into the area which does not break the map. You don't need to jump in MAP02 to complete the map. If you want to cheat the map, and skip the Red Key Room, you would jump to reach the Red Key from the Yellow Key Room cave, then exit the map.

I designed basic Doom 2 but I'm happy to see that it plays good with Brutal Doom, and also glad you figured MAP02 out :)

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After playing Imagination Beyond with Brutal Doom, I would actually rate your maps at least 80/100. The maps are varied, challenging, and full of surprises. I have not completed Imagination Beyond, I would prefer to play the WAD on my other computer with the Brutal Doom mod. Imagination Beyond with stock DOOM2, enemies will get stuck in the maps, and are not able to chase after the player. With Brutal Doom, the monsters move faster, and are able to chase after the player. The faster gameplay lets the map flow more smoothly, and the maps are overall much better in quality. You can have the same gameplay with stock DOOM2 if the monsters were closer to the player.

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