Need Playtesters to Test Map with Slaughter Elements

[Zolgia108]

i really like the fact that you are constantly updating this map, this means that you're actually giving people's feedback a lot of importance. Tons of mappers here ask for advices and then don't fix anything always thinking they are right somehow, like if we were just saying things to be mean :)

This is the best approach you can have in order to improve, hands down.

I will play this again soon, good job mate

[azerty]

14 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

 

@azerty - Thanks for playing my map. even if the version you played (v1.1) is definitely harder than my latest version (v1.3). As I said above, I've tweaked the archvile shooting puzzle to be less unforgiving if players don't understand it at first. Regarding the coloured maze section, I'd honestly say that whether people like it or not is going to be very subjective, cause while you said you found it boring, other players have said that it was their favourite part. Regarding the ghost cacos, I really don't know what to say about that. Many wads use ghost monsters: Icarus, Requiem, Reverie, Plutonia 2. And a majority of those wads don't explain how to deal with them. The only way / intended way to kill ghost monsters is to use the splash damage of rockets, which that arena has pillars that the player is meant to use to deal with the ghost cacos.

 

Yeah my feedback is subjective and you do with it whatever you want. All players will have another experience of your map so don't mind if one random dude said he didn't like it. About those ghost monsters I wasn't familiar to those kind of monsters and idk how but I was able to kill the very slowly with the plasma rifle I didn't try using the rocket launcher.

[Arsinikk]

Hey everyone!

 

I just wanted to mention that I'm currently working on the next revision, but it'll take a little bit longer than the previous updates.

 

On this update, I wanted to address and fix the main issue with the map which is the Archvile puzzle fight.

 

I think that the fight itself is fine, however how it is currently placed in the map is not. The fight simply expects the player to quickly learn all of it's mechanics, all at the same time, and that just simply doesn't make the fight fun, especially for someone who is playing the map for the first time.

 

My solution is to cut the fight into 2 phases. The first phase will be devoid of any enemy opposition and will teach the player how the skull switch opens the switch windows and how shooting the switches raises the centre purple platform. Once the player has hit all the switches in this phase, the familiar Archvile tutorial will show up and the fight will continue how it currently is.

 

I think this simple change of teaching the player the puzzle mechanics first, before applying the pressure of the timer and enemy opposition will make the fight a lot more digestible and fun for players.

 

I'll post the revision whenever it is done, but I just wanted y'all to know that it's in the works.

 

I'm both grateful and embarrassed by feedback I've received on this map. I'm glad that your guys' criticism is improving the map, but I'm also embarrassed by how bad the map was when I first posted it. This is only my second map, but it seems like I still have a lot to learn when it comes to mapping.

[Zolgia108]

8 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

Hey everyone!

 

I just wanted to mention that I'm currently working on the next revision, but it'll take a little bit longer than the previous updates.

 

On this update, I wanted to address and fix the main issue with the map which is the Archvile puzzle fight.

 

I think that the fight itself is fine, however how it is currently placed in the map is not. The fight simply expects the player to quickly learn all of it's mechanics, all at the same time, and that just simply doesn't make the fight fun, especially for someone who is playing the map for the first time.

 

My solution is to cut the fight into 2 phases. The first phase will be devoid of any enemy opposition and will teach the player how the skull switch opens the switch windows and how shooting the switches raises the centre purple platform. Once the player has hit all the switches in this phase, the familiar Archvile tutorial will show up and the fight will continue how it currently is.

 

I think this simple change of teaching the player the puzzle mechanics first, before applying the pressure of the timer and enemy opposition will make the fight a lot more digestible and fun for players.

 

I'll post the revision whenever it is done, but I just wanted y'all to know that it's in the works.

 

I'm both grateful and embarrassed by feedback I've received on this map. I'm glad that your guys' criticism is improving the map, but I'm also embarrassed by how bad the map was when I first posted it. This is only my second map, but it seems like I still have a lot to learn when it comes to mapping.

mate to be a second map it is an awesome one. Embarassed for what? You are doing a great job both in mapping and in listening :)  I will definetely play next version.

[ryiron]

10 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

My solution is to cut the fight into 2 phases. The first phase will be devoid of any enemy opposition and will teach the player how the skull switch opens the switch windows and how shooting the switches raises the centre purple platform. Once the player has hit all the switches in this phase, the familiar Archvile tutorial will show up and the fight will continue how it currently is.

 

I didn't think of that. I think that's a really great way to keep the fight in the map. 

[Arsinikk]

Everyone ( @Zolgia108 @azerty @ScrappyMcDoogerton @Blip ),

 

The big update is here! I'm hoping this version will make the switch fight more accessible and easier for players!

 

Hellcinerator v1.5 (1/23/22)

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

v1.5

- Changed switch fight into 2 phases (should make this fight more accessible and easier for players)
- Changed shells to bullets in shop to compensate for having to shoot more switches
- Added small armour in front of the hexagon fight
- Added some more shells in library
- Added 3 more hints to figure out the secret exit route
- fixed incorrectly moving wall in the ceiling raise segment
- fixed the green stairs not raising up correctly in the SSG room, if switches are flipped too early
- Added wood arch to better transition cave section after the switch fight
- Map had exceeded max sidedef limit, so I simplified some of the lines in dummy sectors and removed some unused monster closets

 

v1.3

- changed the consequence for failing to solve the archvile switch puzzle in time. Enemies still teleport in, but the player is given an escape route and can now remove the opposition and get back to solving the puzzle without being under threat of a timer.

- added a hint when of how to proceed in the map after the player grabs the blue keycard

 

 v1.2

- pinky/archvile fight now only has 2 archviles (each spawns after pressing 2 switches each) with a tiny bit less rockets. I found each switch per archvile to be a little tedious especially after multiple playthroughs - added some armour bonuses for the revenant/cyber fight

- tweaked the red skull key fight yet again. (made the green barons show up when the normal barons do)

- added a big cell right before the Archvile fight after the imps and removed 2 archviles in UV. So now a total of 6 Archviles on UV instead of 8. I'm fine with this since the fight is pretty much the same, just a little less bullshit.

- added 2 small cells in yellow rocket lock section in maze

- tweaked puzzle in decino room to require one less step

 

v1.1
- The staircase to the red skull key in the beginning area has be retextured to better stand out

- The fight when traversing the steps in the beginning area has been tweaked to only have the barons teleport in, and then the rest of the enemies now teleport in when the player actually grabs the key

- The Archvile switch fight section has been redesigned to force the player to interact with the skull switch to convey that it opens the switch windows

- The Archvile switch fight section now has a timer that is visible to the player and will hopefully make the section less confusing

- The Archvile switch fight section timer has been increased to compensate for a player not quite knowing what to do at first.

 

[Zolgia108]

4 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

Everyone ( @Zolgia108 @azerty @ScrappyMcDoogerton @Blip ),

 

The big update is here! I'm hoping this version will make the switch fight more accessible and easier for players!

 

Hellcinerator v1.5 (1/23/22)

 

Changelog:

  Reveal hidden contents

v1.5

- Changed switch fight into 2 phases (should make this fight more accessible and easier for players)
- Changed shells to bullets in shop to compensate for having to shoot more switches
- Added small armour in front of the hexagon fight
- Added some more shells in library
- Added 3 more hints to figure out the secret exit route
- fixed incorrectly moving wall in the ceiling raise segment
- fixed the green stairs not raising up correctly in the SSG room, if switches are flipped too early
- Added wood arch to better transition cave section after the switch fight
- Map had exceeded max sidedef limit, so I simplified some of the lines in dummy sectors and removed some unused monster closets

 

v1.3

- changed the consequence for failing to solve the archvile switch puzzle in time. Enemies still teleport in, but the player is given an escape route and can now remove the opposition and get back to solving the puzzle without being under threat of a timer.

- added a hint when of how to proceed in the map after the player grabs the blue keycard

 

 v1.2

- pinky/archvile fight now only has 2 archviles (each spawns after pressing 2 switches each) with a tiny bit less rockets. I found each switch per archvile to be a little tedious especially after multiple playthroughs - added some armour bonuses for the revenant/cyber fight

- tweaked the red skull key fight yet again. (made the green barons show up when the normal barons do)

- added a big cell right before the Archvile fight after the imps and removed 2 archviles in UV. So now a total of 6 Archviles on UV instead of 8. I'm fine with this since the fight is pretty much the same, just a little less bullshit.

- added 2 small cells in yellow rocket lock section in maze

- tweaked puzzle in decino room to require one less step

 

v1.1
- The staircase to the red skull key in the beginning area has be retextured to better stand out

- The fight when traversing the steps in the beginning area has been tweaked to only have the barons teleport in, and then the rest of the enemies now teleport in when the player actually grabs the key

- The Archvile switch fight section has been redesigned to force the player to interact with the skull switch to convey that it opens the switch windows

- The Archvile switch fight section now has a timer that is visible to the player and will hopefully make the section less confusing

- The Archvile switch fight section timer has been increased to compensate for a player not quite knowing what to do at first.

 

Ok mate, please don't take this too badly, it's just my personal thought and must be treated as such.

I decided to play the map again ( i recorded it too but i dont know if iwant to share the video this time).

I ll try to remember everything i can:

1st room: the floors all work twice, even the ones that are not spawning archies anymore (minor issue but it should be polished)

3rd fight: i can't undestand the point of the baron and hks before grabbing the key since no enemy spawns before you get the key.

archvile fight, it took me forever to finally understand how it worked, i liked the "switches for dummies" section, but i think you just found the dumbest of all cause when the timer finally started i couldnt understan how to show the switches again, i just couldnt lol, so i basically killed everything without doing the puzzle switch and then, only then, i noticed that by pressing the blue one they lower just for a while. I would say this is my fault and i feel stupid, but it is what it is.

 

Then mmm what can i say, maybe because i was a bit tired i started playing in a different mood, this change of pace is weird in a map, when i go with a mindset i cannot switch it (in doom i mean), and then basically i was drown out and the "maze" endless switch hunt started, i chose blue first, it was almost "fun" at the beginning, but then it went on and on an on an on an on an on FOREVER, i couldn't stand it anymore, and it was so repetitive... an nothing, it was dinner time and i decided to eat some meat with artichokes and quit the map again.

 

Feels too much, too many "maps" in one in my opinion. The maze area should be a totally different map. I liked the Mastermind shoot cyber infight, that was tricky and i loved it. But the corridors? I would have probably enjoyed it as map 16, after a coffee break. But not on a blind run while i am recording (and btw this map is still, in my opinion not blind run friendly at all).

 

 

Sorry as usual! Let's just wait for the other people i guess :)

 

[Arsinikk]

Hey @Zolgia108,

 

Lol you could never hurt my feelings with your thoughts!

I find everyone's input valuable :)

 

1st room - I assume you are talking about the sector sounds of the pressure switches repeating after the player has already pressed the switch. This is because each side of the switch is set to lower the switch, and so if you run other the other sides, it will attempt to lower the switch again. I guess I could try using a conveyor for each switch so that the lower action only happens once, tho the map sidedef limit is fast approaching :P

 

3rd fight - This fight was changed from the original version, because I think some players might find the arachnotrons and archviles teleporting behind the player while scaling the steps to be too unfair (especially for blind runs). So instead of them teleporting at the same time as the barons and the hell knights, I opted for them teleporting after grabbing the key, so that the archviles are less of a surprise and can be killed before they raise too many minions. The barons and green knights basically teleport to stop the player from grabbing the red skull too quick, especially if cybers and revenants are still kicking.

 

Archvile Switch Fight - I'm glad that the "switches for dummies" section helped in at least some capacity. Actually even though you didn't quite figure out the the switch windows were timed, I was actually really excited that you could still beat the section by dealing with the enemy opposition that teleport in instead! I think this is a much better change than the previous immediate death, and will keep players continuing the map and eventually figure out the puzzle. Unfortunately with Doom mapping limitations, it's really not possible for the first row of switches to be timed, so I opted for the final ones being timed. Also the second tutorial wall shows a time symbol now indicating the time element (then again that could just be the timer itself). Anyway I'm glad that you got passed it.

 

4-colour maze section - I'm kinda surprised how some people really like this section and how some people just really find it boring. I'd say the benefit of this section is that it is clear from the get-go that there are only 4 coloured sections. I tried to spice up each section by kinda dedicating a particular weapon and style of play for each (although you can use whatever weapons you'd like). While I personally think this section is the draggiest part of the level, I'd say it definitely redeems itself if you can make it through all the sections, with the 2nd biggest slaughter fight of the map. I've actually never heard anyone refer to this section as a switch hunt, but I guess if you think about it, it kinda is. I guess most of the time I associate switch hunts with more difficult to find switches, which I could be wrong but I find the switches in this section to be extremely obvious. Also I guess I find satisfaction in finishing each coloured maze section and watching the walls lower to show the entire area. I could be wrong, but I feel this section feels alot more like Doom1 with it's corridors and since I love Doom1's level design, I guess it personally doesn't bother/bore me.

 

Regarding the map being too long/big - It's very possible that this map a bit long and difficult to digest in a single sitting, although every part of the map is utilised and it integral to the secret exit, so it's really difficult to just cut pieces out. I'd say the most I can do is try to improve it little-by-little and take some of the feedback I get and apply it to my later maps so that they don't run into these issues.

 

Just a small thing, I'd like you to elaborate on which of the fights you think are not blind-run friendly. I've played mapsets like Haste (not that I'm comparing this map to Haste, it's quite different), and I find most of these fights do-able on blind if you are good at adapting the given situation quickly. It could be that I'm just a better doom player than I realise. (The only fight that I could see being a bit blind unfriendly is the Archviles/Pinkies that teleport in when grabbing the SSG)

 

Again thanks for your feedback and I look forward to what the others have to say as well! :)

[DavidN]

Here's my attempt! Thanks for sending it to me ages ago :)

 

 

 

I think the slaughter elements worked great - they were challenging but not absurd and I was able to understand what the map wanted of me :) You can see my thought process with the puzzles as I go - you had some great signalling with the very recognizable blood/skull switch, some other parts of it might be less obvious (you'll see). Includes a very long section at the end when I'm just wandering around the map trying to get to the secret exit!

 

If I were to have to say my least favourite thing, it would be the spectral cacodemons at the end which hinder your exploration - it's possible that there was a way of getting rid of them that I never worked out...

[Arsinikk]

Got another minor update! Main thing is that I finally fixed GZDoom crashing in software mode around the Archvile Puzzle Fight.

 

I've got another update that will be coming soon where I plan to add a little tutorial on how to defeat the ghost cacodemons since some players seem to not know how to deal with them.

 

I still think the Archvile Puzzle Fight tutorial isn't as clear as I'd like it to be, but I haven't quite figured out how to streamline it yet.

 

Because of this map's length, NinjaDelphox and I have decided to move this map from the map15 slot to map32, and I plan on soon releasing the map standalone as a kind of promotion for megawad Corruption.

 

Thanks everyone for your support and feedback!

Hellcinerator v1.51 (2/2/22)

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

- Important!!! - fixed GZDoom crashing around AV puzzle fight (under software renderer)

- beginning pressure switches have changed so that now they only trigger once

- fixed baron texture not changing to archvile after pressing floating switch next to SSG

- timer now shows up after hitting the AV tutorial, to avoid confusion

- fixed stubborn pressure switch in yellow maze area

- moved blue key hint slightly next to red door