The Master Levels, a cash grab?

[ChopBlock223]

4 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

They could've (and should have) hire a few mappers to put together a coherent megawad instead, like they did for Plutonia.

I agree.

 

4 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

Sadly, they've missed the opportunity to put Perdition's Gate on Final Doom,

Perdition's Gate was like, a 10 level demo when iD were offered to take a look at it, and as said it was probably pretty far into Final Doom's development.

By then, they had looked at Plutonia, which was an 8 level demo, and already made a deal with the Casalis for them to finish it and then make it a double feature with TNT.

 

4 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

That thing would've been right at home next to Plutonia, it's much better and more consistent than TNT Evilution and it's light years ahead of the Master Levels.

I honestly can't agree with that in the slightest. TNT has some rough edges, but overall I think it's far more fun, varied, and well made than Perdition's Gate, which I think lacks a lot of imagination for many parts.

 

If Perdition's Gate had been accepted (assuming iD liked what they saw), it would probably have looked very different from how it actually turned out, involving other mappers, and it would also not be tied thematically with Hell 2 Pay.

[Antkibo]

It was the Cash Grab to end all other Cash Grabs of lesser quality. What is a true wonder is how TNT and Plutonia were so good compared to everything that came before or after for a good while.

[ant]

6 hours ago, princetontiger said:

Maximum Doom was all I had until the early 2000s. I missed the USENET (alt.games.doom) scene entirely.

Let's revive it! I still subscribe to it. :P

[brick]

... I've been playing on and off through the Deluxe Edition that Rudolph linked to last page for almost a whole year and I only just realized JP LeBreton put it together. I've made some personal modifications to the level order and the music, but it's such a fantastic way to play through them. And it kinda resolves the "why is it not a megawad" question - it's more like a series of episodes, and quite meaty when you put it all together.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about it as cash-grab - I don't remember how much it cost, and while I do remember feeling initially disappointed with what it offered I've really grown to appreciate most of the levels over the years (except maybe Willits's who I was never particularly fond of). And I know it's fashionable to dismiss Chris Klie's levels but I really love them, if he had been one of the regular mappers for Doom 1/2 I always felt his levels would've fit alongside the others without any dissonance. So regardless of the intent, I can't see something I genuinely like and am glad to have as a cash-grab - the two thoughts seem too contradictory.

 

Someone mentioned Ultimate Doom as a cash grab and that I cannot in any way see as one - it was the only way to buy the game retail, and if you already had it before retail then you got the upgrade for free. If you had the bandwidth to download the patches of course XD

[Dark Pulse]

5 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Someone please tell me how a free update for existing owners (aka Ultimate Doom in this case) is a cash grab?

Ultimate Doom was not a cash grab for precisely this reason. Existing owners did not get left out, and people who bought it retail got the exact same game.

[Gibbon]

6 hours ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

Honesty if the master levels were such a cash grab, wouldn't they be on the D!Zone CD's of the late 90's early 00's?

That would be illegal as the authors were paid by ID to produce maps specifically for the Master Levels.  Since they were sold (and still are) distributing those maps is still illegal.

 

The same isn't for Maximum Doom as those were just scraped from sites and most are on other shovelware disks like DZone and Boom Power Pack.

[xScavengerWolfx]

2 hours ago, Gibbon said:

That would be illegal as the authors were paid by ID to produce maps specifically for the Master Levels.  Since they were sold (and still are) distributing those maps is still illegal.

 

The same isn't for Maximum Doom as those were just scraped from sites and most are on other shovelware disks like DZone and Boom Power Pack.

Ah ok. I mean could you imagine if us here in the community got paid to make maps for the old school Id software? That would be dope as fuck......please shoot me for saying that

[Dark Pulse]

33 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

Ah ok. I mean could you imagine if us here in the community got paid to make maps for the old school Id software? That would be dope as fuck......please shoot me for saying that

I mean, Sverre Kvernmo is still active on Doomworld, and he was one of the guys who made levels for the Master Levels (4 wads/5 levels are his), so technically, this does apply to some of us here in the community. :P

[xScavengerWolfx]

15 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

I mean, Sverre Kvernmo is still active on Doomworld, and he was one of the guys who made levels for the Master Levels (4 wads/5 levels are his), so technically, this does apply to some of us here in the community. :P

Huh that's cool i wounder if he still dose mapping to this day?

 

[Martin Howe]

15 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

That said, in hindsight, remember the era - not everyone had internet connections, and even if you did, we're talking 56k at best (and more likely 28.8k). A whole CD filled with hundreds, if not thousands, of levels to play is quite the appealing prospect. It's easy to forget that when in 2022 you can download even a DVD's worth of content in just 5-10 minutes. For some people, the PWADs on those CDs were all the custom levels they got.

In mid-1990s UK, BBS and 56k was hideously expensive (no local phone calls free in the UK) and affordable broadband was years away; shovelware (and 'official shovelware'!) was the only way of getting maps for Doom unless you were very rich or worked at a university or something.

 

As to selling cheap knock offs of their own product, it had been done before Doom even existed; at work we recently acquired an Ambra/IPCL 386SX PC from 1992, Ambra being a cheap IBM clone range made by a subsidiary of ... IBM! Big Blue could see the way the wind was blowing with cheap clones and wanted some of those lovely $$$ for themselves. British Airways in the early 2000s span off a cheap airline owned by them to compete with Ryan Air and people like that. Money talks :P

[Gibbon]

2 hours ago, Martin Howe said:

In mid-1990s UK, BBS and 56k was hideously expensive (no local phone calls free in the UK) and affordable broadband was years away; shovelware (and 'official shovelware'!) was the only way of getting maps for Doom unless you were very rich or worked at a university or something.

 

As to selling cheap knock offs of their own product, it had been done before Doom even existed; at work we recently acquired an Ambra/IPCL 386SX PC from 1992, Ambra being a cheap IBM clone range made by a subsidiary of ... IBM! Big Blue could see the way the wind was blowing with cheap clones and wanted some of those lovely $$$ for themselves. British Airways in the early 2000s span off a cheap airline owned by them to compete with Ryan Air and people like that. Money talks :P

Here here!  I had a 28k modem until 2001 when British broadband became somewhat affordable.  By that time I had totally missed the 90's shovelware craze.

[Rudolph]

I wonder if the mappers whose submissions made it into to the Master Levels are still getting residuals for their contribution or if it was a one-time payment.

[Dark Pulse]

14 hours ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

Huh that's cool i wounder if he still dose mapping to this day?

His most recent mapping work was a ZDoom-oriented mapset in 2016.

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Echelon

 

His most recent work period, however, was a texture pack from 2020.

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/graphics/echtex

[xScavengerWolfx]

29 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

His most recent mapping work was a ZDoom-oriented mapset in 2016.

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Echelon

 

His most recent work period, however, was a texture pack from 2020.

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/graphics/echtex

I'll check them out when i can