New Doomworld Layout! Direct ALL complaints/suggestions/whining to Doomkid

[Doomkid]

4 minutes ago, Decay said:

Introductory sentences to paragraphs tell me the topic of said paragraph, which should've been "placement of main selling point of the forum"! duhhhhhhhhh

 

There's always the option to actually read something before you reply to it! Tough wark I know.

[Magnusblitz]

I side towards thinking that in-progress stuff should be in the subforum, but I would think that an actual full release should be allowed in the main forum. It seems to me the bigger distinction is between completed stuff (regardless of age), and in-progress projects. I see more similarity between a "new release" thread and everyone talking about it, and a thread doing in-depth discussion of a 20 year wad; versus uncompleted stuff which I suppose would be stuff like community projects recruiting/work threads, hype threads, or neophyte author "here's what I'm working on, let me know how it is" stuff.

 

If the majority of people are here just to find recommendations (which I suspect is true, at least in terms of number of users, not who posts the most), then I think this distinction works - since they'd be wanting to look at completed stuff. (I'm sure there's some people out there who delight in playing not-yet-complete stuff, but I figure they're the minority).

 

The difficulties of this approach would probably be in determining what a "release" is - i.e., how complete? A release that's mostly done, though more features may still be added? An /idgames upload? A "1.0" release would probably be the easiest definition, allowing for people to playtest and bugfix, but it's not an easy line to draw. Also, this would probably mean that there'd need to be a rule that someone needs to make a new post in the main forum once the release is done (as opposed to just editing the original thread, which a lot of people have done). 

[Doomkid]

So, wad releases and wad discussion as one subforum, with "wads in progress" being the separated one? Hmm..

 

As I was looking through all the old pages of threads, I was struck with an overwhelming sense that the questions/discussions/philosophy threads were almost "getting in the way" of seeing wad projects, complete or not. This was a big part of why I wanted to separate the two, regardless of which ends up with top billing. I fear that re-mingling releases with that more philisophical stuff would in turn re-introduce some of the muddiness that we've cleared away.

 

That said - if more people are set on yet a 3rd split for "releases", I'm willing to do it, assuming the other DW staff members agree - but actually separating everything where it belongs and the changes being visible for the average DW user still may be some way off.

 

(Also, looks like basically 2/3rds of people are for "WAD Discussion & Critiques" being the little spoon, with "Releases and Development" being the big spoon. I don't want to leave people out - once 100 have cast their vote I'll go ahead and make the swap nevermind, gonna do it now, I think the answer is clear!)

[jazzmaster9]

I ended up voting for the second option. I feel like releases and WIPs should be the forefront of the Mods section.
Not really a fan of this current set up.

 

Lots of community discussion ultimate happens after release and most of the are even few and far between.

[SleepyVelvet]

I circled around to Doomkid's opinion on this one.  But it's based on what I use Wads and Mods for in the first place, which is the event-based stuff like Ironmans that can be spontaneously jumped in and out of at a whim (well, anything can qualify for that, so it's subjective...).  It's a result of personal preferences, but I don't want my favorite threads in the back kitchen, I want them in the buffet up front.

 

For the happenings of slower project development, peeping into the back kitchen to see what's happening is fun.  But it's something I'd be doing less frequently... Unless you're here to cook in the first place.  Though either way, I'd still prefer the finished dish show up in the front after its done - either in a separate 3rd "releases" split; or just sprinkled into the discussion stuff.  Oh and then there's stuff like the "Beat the map above and post your own" thread which is more of a spontaneous fun thread than a hard development thread, so how would that be categorized...

 

Or do all non-release discussions/events just get thrown into Doom General anyways...  I've seen more and more wad-specific stuff, both discussions and challenges, show up in there recently, like the DW Fight Club ^{(which doesn't exist)} and the Shovelware Society, etc.  Is there a line between general doom discussion and wad discussion?  For me Doom General and Wads and Mods were always kinda fuzzy anyways.

 

Actually, maybe I'm lumping event threads and discussion threads together too much here...

[knifeworld]

31 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

So, wad releases and wad discussion as one subforum, with "wads in progress" being the separated one? Hmm..

 

As I was looking through all the old pages of threads, I was struck with an overwhelming sense that the questions/discussions/philosophy threads were almost "getting in the way" of seeing wad projects, complete or not. This was a big part of why I wanted to separate the two, regardless of which ends up with top billing. I fear that re-mingling releases with that more philisophical stuff would in turn re-introduce some of the muddiness that we've cleared away.

 

That said - if more people are set on yet a 3rd split for "releases", I'm willing to do it, assuming the other DW staff members agree - but actually separating everything where it belongs and the changes being visible for the average DW user still may be some way off.

 

(Also, looks like basically 2/3rds of people are for "WAD Discussion & Critiques" being the little spoon, with "Releases and Development" being the big spoon. I don't want to leave people out - once 100 have cast their vote I'll go ahead and make the swap!)

Not a fan of mixing discussion with releases again. The second poll option makes sense to me because if I think or say out loud "Wads and Mods" and then "Wad Discussions", "Wad Discussions" personally sounds fine under the bigger umbrella of "Wads and Mods".

It might seem strange to have discussions (which may be about the release or development of a wad or mod) off to the side away from where releases will be, but the separation ultimately makes finding what we want easier. The second option would just preserve the expectation of seeing new WAD and mod releases when you click on "Wads and Mods".


One idea I came up with was:
WADS & Mods (Development & Releases)
    |                        |
    |                        |_ _ _ _ WADs & Mods [Community Projects Only]
    |                      
    |_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ WAD & Mod Discussions Only

But I'm not sure how logical that would turn out to be if hypothetically implemented. ( I just like the idea of even more clarity by not mixing Community Projects with personal WAD dev & release threads )
It would also add eons more manual sorting time.. so: Higher Pitch Playerdeath sound
 

[Biodegradable]

Despite haunting the WADs and Mods subforum all the time, I missed out on the discussion thanks to my timezone. The decision has clearly been made to sideline the semi-related waffle into a seperate sub-subforum while all the WIPs and Full Releases are given centre-stage where they can't get pushed down the pipeline by the next useless thread asking, "Which WAD Should I Play?" or "Help, Project Brutality won't run on my dusty old 2004 laptop!"

 

I agree with this move. It's a change this subforum has needed for quite some time.  

[baja blast rd.]

48 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

The decision has clearly been made to sideline the semi-related waffle into a seperate sub-subforum while all the WIPs and Full Releases are given centre-stage where they can't get pushed down the pipeline by the next useless thread asking, "Which WAD Should I Play?" or "Help, Project Brutality won't run on my dusty old 2004 laptop!"

 

One of the main benefits we talked about is allowing the discussion threads to shine. There are definitely many more types of "clubs" possible than the DWMC, as well as a host of other regular activities -- and now people can start those without worrying about crowding out wads. So it's not really a matter of sidelining anything. 

[Biodegradable]

33 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

One of the main benefits we talked about is allowing the discussion threads to shine. There are definitely many more types of "clubs" possible than the DWMC, as well as a host of other regular activities -- and now people can start those without worrying about crowding out wads. So it's not really a matter of sidelining anything. 

 

Oh absolutely, rd. By no means was I referring to things like the DWmegaWAD Club, the Ironman, the Endless Random /idgames Adventures or any of the fun activities, I assure you. Those things are all terrific in their own right.

[Xaser]

Thanks for flip-flopping it -- saw the change earlier and was gonna suggest inverting it and making the project-focused subforum the primary one, and hey! There it is. :P

[VanaheimRanger]

Nice, I've been waiting for this change, I'll actually be able to find new WADs now without sifting through a bunch of conversation posts.  Good job, kid!

[Andromeda]

14 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

The difficulties of this approach would probably be in determining what a "release" is - i.e., how complete? A release that's mostly done, though more features may still be added? An /idgames upload? A "1.0" release would probably be the easiest definition, allowing for people to playtest and bugfix, but it's not an easy line to draw. Also, this would probably mean that there'd need to be a rule that someone needs to make a new post in the main forum once the release is done (as opposed to just editing the original thread, which a lot of people have done). 

FWIW I would consider a wad to be released once it gets uploaded on /idgames.

[Bauul]

22 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

FWIW I would consider a wad to be released once it gets uploaded on /idgames.

 

Not every released project will get uploaded to idgames, particularly due to the size limit there. My latest release is staying on ModDB for that reason, for example.

 

14 hours ago, Doomkid said:

That said - if more people are set on yet a 3rd split for "releases", I'm willing to do it, assuming the other DW staff members agree - but actually separating everything where it belongs and the changes being visible for the average DW user still may be some way off.

 

Given the ultimate aim here is to improve findability for releases, just to throw it out there could there be other ways of distinguishing between in-progress wads and released wads aside from having a different sub forum? As I agree that having a mod need to manually move a topic from one forum to another once the project hits a "release" state seems like a lot of work for you guys.

 

Does the Forum software have any ability to apply flags or tags to topics? Some visual indicator (even searchable if possible) that could be used to distinguish between in-progress and released wads. I'm thinking of something like Reddit's flair system, where you can see at a quick glance the status of a project based on the flair, and it can be set at any time by the poster themselves. That would make it easy to spot released projects without needing either a new thread in a separate forum, or have the mods manually move it.

[Uncle 80]

Great news! The previous C:\'ish no-directory clutter was getting real hard to spot the gems in :)

[dobu gabu maru]

Cool idea! I kinda like the split since "new projects" and "discussion of old stuff" won't vie for the same attention space anymore, although like Magnus it does make me curious if a "finished/released" subforum could work as well. Of course an unfortunate hitch is that even "releases" are susceptible to receiving new updates as bugs are uncovered, which I think might defeat the purpose of players visiting that forum in search of the "definitive" edition to a project.

 

Perhaps it would be a neat idea to bring back tags in front of the title post? It might open up a new can of worms when users don't appropriately tag the genre of their post, but at least for the development subforum, it would be nice allowing viewers to see at a glance "Closed Development", "Open Development", "Beta Testing", & "Released". Although now that I think about it, we could also use a "Brainstorming" tag, and "Canceled" tag, and "On Hiatus" tag, and "Need Players/Beta Testers" tag and "Looking for INTERPIC artist (but not TITLEPIC)" tag and probably a dozen more miniscule differentiations that'll reduce the tag icons to visual noise... at the very least, an "In Development" and "Completed" tags can make any further compartmentalization obsolete.

 

Anyway, thanks to the web team for the rad development!

[msx2plus]

4 hours ago, Bauul said:

Not every released project will get uploaded to idgames, particularly due to the size limit there. My latest release is staying on ModDB for that reason, for example.

+1 - my main project will certainly never be on idgames. it makes updating stuff an enormous pain in the ass when i have my own webserver and can just toss up changes in seconds.

 

i am late to the discussion in general but i'm glad to see this change. 99% of the reason i'm on here is to see what people are making and this will make it so much easier to not get lost in the clutter. thank you!!

 

i like @dobu gabu maru's tags idea. i'm not sure how easily implemented it may be or what tags should be prioritized, but felt it was worth echoing support.

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

Cool idea! I kinda like the split since "new projects" and "discussion of old stuff" won't vie for the same attention space anymore, although like Magnus it does make me curious if a "finished/released" subforum could work as well. Of course an unfortunate hitch is that even "releases" are susceptible to receiving new updates as bugs are uncovered, which I think might defeat the purpose of players visiting that forum in search of the "definitive" edition to a project.

I think this is a non-concern. If release candidates were kept separate from finished projects, then a lot of those potential grievances could be resolved "passively". Updating a finished WAD, because something needed urgent fixing isn't necessarily something particularly problematic either, because the aspect that finished releases and ongoing projects don't need to compete for the same real estate any longer would still hold true. I don't remember when I've last bought a game that was supposedly finished, which never received bug fixes later down the line - why would WADs be any different, and why would somebody raise an eyebrow there..?

Edited April 7, 2022 by Nine Inch Heels

[VanaheimRanger]

22 hours ago, Doomkid said:

if more people are set on yet a 3rd split for "releases", I'm willing to do it, assuming the other DW staff members agree - but actually separating everything where it belongs and the changes being visible for the average DW user still may be some way off.

I'd be all for this, but don't overwork yourself.

[Rudolph]

I did not notice the poll, so I was not able to take part in it, but I approve of the change. Good idea!

[Nine Inch Heels]

23 hours ago, Doomkid said:

That said - if more people are set on yet a 3rd split for "releases", I'm willing to do it, assuming the other DW staff members agree - but actually separating everything where it belongs and the changes being visible for the average DW user still may be some way off.

From my POV, and maybe I should have mentioned it earlier, it should be sufficient to create the subsection for WIPs or whathaveyou, and then announcing that anybody who wants their still ongoing project thread moved there should actively request that... Inactive threads aren't going to bubble up to the surface again anyhow if they've been derelict for months, if not years. It seems like a lot of unnecessary effort to move what's kind of a "digital corpse of a thread" just because it "technically" belongs somewhere else in one big push or whatnot... If you really want to be that thorough, you might as well set up the framework, move the relatively few active threads, and then do the rest piecemeal-style when you feel like you have the time and the patience to spare...

[MattFright]

I'm probably just way too late for this to be considered, but, doesn't Doom General already serve the purpose of wad chatter? and if not, couldn't that just be made so?

 

i say this because i feel it's more important to separate development threads from releases. Development threads are bound to be updated more regularly and such will always bury any new releases to the bottom of the page if not the next page altogether. Plus, people who only play maps (and don't make them) would probably prefer this too, as they wouldn't have to look through a lot of stuff that's aimed at a whole other demographic of the community altogether. 

 

I havent read all the replies yet, so i apologize if this has already been brought up.

Edited April 7, 2022 by MattFright

[Doomkid]

10 hours ago, Bauul said:

Does the Forum software have any ability to apply flags or tags to topics? Some visual indicator (even searchable if possible) that could be used to distinguish between in-progress and released wads. I'm thinking of something like Reddit's flair system, where you can see at a quick glance the status of a project based on the flair, and it can be set at any time by the poster themselves. That would make it easy to spot released projects without needing either a new thread in a separate forum, or have the mods manually move it.

 

This software actually does have tags! There was a ton of discussion about this, particularly between rd, Lut and Not Jabba about 6 months ago. I do think they're an excellent idea, I'll work on this with the other DW staffers and come to a solid consensus on what tags we should create. It shouldn't take too long, because most of what we need is fairly obvious (but we'll also have to work out the technical kinks of getting this implemented).

 

6 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

Perhaps it would be a neat idea to bring back tags in front of the title post? It might open up a new can of worms when users don't appropriately tag the genre of their post, but at least for the development subforum, it would be nice allowing viewers to see at a glance "Closed Development", "Open Development", "Beta Testing", & "Released". Although now that I think about it, we could also use a "Brainstorming" tag, and "Canceled" tag, and "On Hiatus" tag, and "Need Players/Beta Testers" tag and "Looking for INTERPIC artist (but not TITLEPIC)" tag and probably a dozen more miniscule differentiations that'll reduce the tag icons to visual noise... at the very least, an "In Development" and "Completed" tags can make any further compartmentalization obsolete.

 

Anyway, thanks to the web team for the rad development!

 

Firstly, you're very welcome dobu. Secondly, I think we should, hopefully, be able to find that sweet spot between too few and too many tags. My thought is the KISS approach - give people 5/6 tags of the obvious stuff, similar to what you listed in the first bit of your post, and let all the nitty-gritty details be contained in the post itself (only the newest of newbies don't know to list the target compatibility and port and other such details, after all - it's otherwise common convention).

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

From my POV, and maybe I should have mentioned it earlier, it should be sufficient to create the subsection for WIPs or whathaveyou, and then announcing that anybody who wants their still ongoing project thread moved there should actively request that... Inactive threads aren't going to bubble up to the surface again anyhow if they've been derelict for months, if not years. It seems like a lot of unnecessary effort to move what's kind of a "digital corpse of a thread" just because it "technically" belongs somewhere else in one big push or whatnot...

 

I agree, that is probably too much effort for relatively little gain. I'd wager that most of those ancient wad threads contain projects that were either never started, or if they were finished they were likely uploaded to one of the common wad hosts (idgames etc) so I don't even think it would be all that useful for the "wad archeologists" out there.

 

19 minutes ago, MattFright said:

I'm probably just way too late for this to be considered, but, doesn't Doom General already serve the purpose of wad chatter? and if not, couldn't that just be made so?

 

i say this because i feel it's more important to separate development threads from releases. Development threads are bound to be updated more regularly and such will always bury any new releases to the bottom of the page if not the next page altogether. Plus, people who only play maps (and don't make them) would probably prefer this too, as they wouldn't have to look through a lot of stuff that's aimed at a whole other demographic of the community altogether.

 

For the last few years, Doom General and Wads & Mods have been footing way more traffic than they were originally designed for. On particularly chatty days, threads would fall off the front page after just 5 measly hours, meaning some users from certain timezones had basically a 0% chance of seeing them. They absolutely needed to be broken up into 3 (and possibly 4 in future) distinct subforums just to give some threads the chance to have over 24 hours on page 1.

 

As far as splitting development and releases goes, that's an idea a lot of people are in favor of (and actually what I initially advocated for about a year ago) but I think bringing back the tags as Bauul and dobu mentioned is going to be our best approach for the time being. That way even the newest and most unfamiliar users would be able to see at a glance if something is "release" (or at least "release candidate"), and just ignore everything else that doesn't interest them.

 

 

Thank you all for the input on how we should move forward with this, by the way. It's very helpful!

[Wadmodder Shalton]

I'm probably fine with my research for finding single-level PWAD sources from those compilation PWADs from back in tge 1990s and 2000s in a new subcategory of the Wads & Mods posts.

[Doomkid]

I am once again asking for your financial support updating the forum layout, this time so that Classic Doom actually has 2 dedicated sections, a "general" one and a "special interest" one.

 

This really was necessary considering that all 8 of the subforums are fairly active, but were awkwardly divided between areas. It also gave the "special interest" section an actual identity, rather than being this weird amalgam of Doom things and Everything Else - now Creative Works is down there in "Misc." with EE, where I always thought it belonged anyway.

 

As usual, direct your tossed rotten tomatoes in my direction! (In other words, direct all your complaints my way).

[Biodegradable]

It's a pretty minimal, barely-noticeable change and it makes sense to me, so I approve!

[IcarusOfDaggers]

Speaking of changes, have you ever considered a donations add banner at the side of the webpage on the main page? could help with maintaining the forum.

[Doomkid]

I think that's a good idea, but Linguica would have to be the man to implement such a thing.

[HavoX]

Works for me.™

[Dweller Dark]

It might take a bit to get used to, but I like the organization of it all. 

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

I like the new layout, looks better than the previous IMO