Have you actually played Valley Of Echoes?

[StarSpun5000]

You know? The original map 25 of Alien Vendetta that Anders Johnson removed because it was, "the least playable and worst looking map in AV".  Do you agree with him or do you think he's being a bit too harsh. Me personally I quite like it but I will admit that my fondness for it is helped by the new track composed for it in the AV midi pack. (I swear it feels like Cammy just can't make a bad midi). 

[Pseudonaut]

I haven't played it for myself, only seen and read about it. I recall a pretty compelling argument that 21 should have been cut instead. I'll have to actually play it one of these days and see how I feel about it.

[Nefelibeta]

40 minutes ago, Pseudonaut said:

I haven't played it for myself, only seen and read about it. I recall a pretty compelling argument that 21 should have been cut instead. I'll have to actually play it one of these days and see how I feel about it.

To be honest, it might potentially be a bad idea to play a map that was removed because the author thought it was too bad.

[ducon]

Yes, I played it but it was a long time ago.

[PsychEyeball]

Never played it. If the map was removed from the mapset and by his own author to boot, it must have been for a good reason.

[ducon]

Ah, I still have got both versions of AV on my hard disk.

[Gez]

While I do have both versions of AV on my hard disk as well, I don't think I ever played through either version of it. Like MM, MM2, Requiem, and Hell Revealed, it's part of those classic map sets that I haven't played through yet because there's always something newer and shinier that appeals to me more, and given how excellent-looking stuff keeps getting released at an ever-accelerating pace, I'm not sure I'll ever get to play through them due to my backlog just getting longer and longer.

[tonytheparrot]

I have pistol-started Valley of Echoes to see if it was as bad as Johnsen said it was, and while the map has some great moments, it's really flawed. Positives first: some of the encounters are really fun if you can make the monsters infight properly as it is always satisfying to do so, you get plenty of ammo for the big guns, and i really like that final swarm of monsters. Visually, some parts of it look good like the cage part at the start or the dam. Finally, the  Graveyard music from Heretic is awesome and definitely boosts the map. now for the negatives, the map is overcrowded with chaingunners, out of around 1000 monsters, over 300 are chaingunners, which probably comes from the Twilight influence. Some fights are painful as some enemies are so high up they are basically unkillable without finding the secrets, the platforming part with the mastermind and chaingunners is an absolute pain and some of the infighting can get way too grindy. Some parts of the map, especially the brown cliffs don't look very good, especially compared to the rest of AV. While this map is not the worst AV map by any means, it feels more like a Plutonia map on steroids and it is way too exahusting, especially if you just got through Demonic Hordes which had an even higher kill count in the older version. To add insult to the injury, after beating Valley of Echoes, you need to go through Dark Dome and later Stench of Evil. For these reasons, I think it was the right map to remove and even if Clandestine Complex feels pretty out of place at the 24th slot, it is a nice calm before the storm and makes an exaushthing wad a bit less draining.

[Crusader No Regret]

I have played it back when AV was first released.  Maybe it's more palatable with saves but I found it a daunting task to make much progress without them.  Falling in damaging blood was stressful.  Does appear sloggy the time I ran through in god mode to tour the sights.  Previous post covers various issues in better detail than I can.

[Jacek Bourne]

I prefer Valley of Echoes to Clandestine Complex, mostly because I hate Clandestine Complex. I think it would’ve been better to revamp Valley of Echoes than create Clandestine Complex. It’s “Valley” parts could definitely use some visual upgrades and it’s gameplay could use refinement if it were to be revamped.

[T-Rex]

I haven't played Valley of Echoes, but I saw Tatsurd-cacocaco's UV-max video of the map, and although Anders Johnsen stated it to be the "least playable and worst looking" map of Alien Vendetta, I thought it had some strong points aside from its weak points and it was a nicely done map. That said, I understand his reason to have it removed in Alien Vendetta's second release, because basically, from Demonic Hordes, the former Map 24 before Clandestine Complex, you got one ballbusting map after another, and while Whispering Shadows and Fire Walk With Me are respite maps from the insanity of Darkdome and Stench of Evil, they still have their nasty moments. Brad "Vorpal" Spencer made a pretty neat homage to Valley of Echoes in his AV: Black Label duology that feels challenging yet not overwhelming, but as an Alien Vendetta aficionado, I would appreciate if Anders Johnsen could release the original Valley of Echoes as a standalone wad so that players can get to have a taste of the first release without having to download the full megawad for it.

[Dusty_Rhodes]

Wasn't there a comment mentioning the self extracting exe the wad first came in? Did it get removed? I'd love to see if the original exe is still around, as well as the early versions of the wad. Tagging @Andy Johnsen just in case he knows. 

[FEDEX]

@Dusty_Rhodes He registered here in 1999 (wow),  and last visit in march this year, so i think we have a highly chance

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Poor decision. He should upload it and say it's a joke wad so I can yell at him. 

[ReaperAA]

15 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Wasn't there a comment mentioning the self extracting exe the wad first came in? Did it get removed? I'd love to see if the original exe is still around, as well as the early versions of the wad. Tagging @Andy Johnsen just in case he knows. 

 

The 2001 version of AV (which contain Valley of Echoes) is avaliable to download at DSDA.

[Andy Johnsen]

Valley of Echoes was an early experimental map I did with Antony Burden's "DETH" editor back when an open scaled Doom map was a novelty in itself. Today few people grind out maps with vanilla compatibility, and if they do there are handy VPO checkers available. So from todays perspective it obviously lose some of its original intent and design challenge. Locally we didn't really understand the engine limitations in 1997/98 when I did this thing, so it was a bit of "what can I get away with" in terms of canyon scale, basically expanding until something broke. The first AV maps were limited in size by the editor we used, more so than the game. DETH could handle larger scaled maps. I did a small write-up on my reasons for cutting it in the Black Label remake Spencer did a few years back, so I'll copy-paste that for further context:
 

"It's an odd thing how the one map we replaced in the second release of Alien Vendetta never really went away. Over the years, the original AV release has been mostly forgotten - still people kept asking what happened to the "lost map", wondering why it was replaced.
 

"Valley of Echoes" originally filled the 25th slot and made the third episode even more exhausting than it is now. It was one of my earlier creations, probably built in 1997/98. I updated it several times during the initial production of AV, and the first gameplay layout was way harder than what ended up in the release (as crazy as that may sound, since it's generally considered one of the hardest maps of the first release).
 

The basic idea behind it was to take inspiration from two of my favorite maps - Doom2 Map26 "The Abandoned Mines" By John Romero, and Plutonia Map15 "The Twilight" by Milo Casali (which in turn is also a Map26 tribute I'd say), and combine it with a sprawling canyon. I might have taken some slight inspiration from the huge outdoor areas found in some of the industrial maps of TNT: Evolution, as well as the canyon maps of Duke Nukem 3d.

The map name is derived from a location in Filmation's "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" episode 124 - "The Toymaker", where He-Man and friends venture into the dreaded Valley of Echoes in pursuit of the villain.
 

Unfortunately the map rubbed me the wrong way shortly after our initial release. Not only did it contribute to a complete overkill in the last act since it sat in the middle of several other huge maps, but it was also too simplistic, over-scaled and tacky gameplay wise. You felt worn out from playing it, and it offered few fun fights. Never a good sign if you aim for replayability."

 

17 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Wasn't there a comment mentioning the self extracting exe the wad first came in? Did it get removed? I'd love to see if the original exe is still around, as well as the early versions of the wad. Tagging @Andy Johnsen just in case he knows. 

As for the self-extracting exe this was a very bad last minute call me and Kim made the evening before releasing the first AV version. It was intended to give a nice installer interface thing, but turned out to be buggy and a complete annoyance to people. We quickly reuploaded without the crappy Visual Basic extractor (but not soon enough to not annoy the heck out of everyone who grabbed it). I might still have it somewhere on an old disc, but most likely this one is lost.

The original release of AV is also available at the AV homepage, maintained by Brad: http://doom2.net/av/get.html

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Andy Johnsen

[Cammy]

First of all, thank you for the shoutout, @StarSpun5000! Rest assured it is well within my power to commit some truly heinous crimes against music. You should have heard some of the garbage I was uploading to Newgrounds when I was 12... I shudder to think of it.

 

Despite knowing from the start of the AV pack's production that I wanted to compose a track for Valley of Echoes so as to leave no stone unturned, I'll admit it: I've never played it. I watched tatsurd-cacocaco's run a couple times to familiarize myself with its gameplay and aesthetics, and I seem to recall running around with idclip and iddqd, but I've never sat down and actually played the map. To be honest it's actually almost rare that I play all the way through the maps I score these days. I think I might have OD'd on the practice early on in my Doom-composing career, in which I would exhaustively play and notate maps before, during, and after the musical process, often watching playthroughs both casual and speed-focused and seeing if everything felt like it was lining up... There are few faster ways to suck the fun out of composing than to trick yourself into thinking any of that is necessary.

 

A casual romp through the level - and preferably a quick chat with the mapper - will suffice to get you on the right track 99 times out of 100. At least, it does for me. In VoE's case, that translates to me still not having gotten around to playing it. But hopefully some day!

[StarSpun5000]

Man It's really cool to see my thread getting so much attention. Nice to get some cool Alien Vendetta info from the Andy himself. I will admit I think I can only enjoy VoE out of context. Having another enormous difficult map to beat alongside Whispering Shadows, Stench of Evil, Demonic Hordes and Dark Dome would've made the end of AV even more exhausting than it already is. I think removing VoE was for the best. I already don't think to highly of AV's final episode (With only a few maps there that I actually enjoy) and yet another brutal level like VoE certainly would not have helped. Still, it's a neat oddity and I feel it's worth at least checking out.

[DuckReconMajor]

I played this map on an AV co-op server years ago and thought it was neat. Sat down with the current AV release some time later and was confused when it wasn't there. Very glad we have the multiple versions, extras, and Andy Johnsen commentary today