Tell me some mapping sins

[RockyGaming4725]

What are some mapping sins you should never commit? I'll go first - 

 

• Not using doortrak/doorstop in doors
• Not having lower-unpegged on doortrak
• Unreachable items
• Suddenly switching textures with no border (support2, support3, or something similar)

 

[PasokonDeacon]

The first and latter "sins" aren't sins at all, not when done right. I've played tons of maps where alternate door sidings are used in line with texture themes and implied functionality. Hell, I've sided doors with PANWOODx tracking quite a few times already and it never felt wrong. As for not using border trim, that's usually only an issue for textures/flats that simply do not transition well from one to another. A lot of generally competent real-life architecture ends up forgoing trim in favor of practicality, and players aren't going to notice a lack of trim so much as inconsistent usage of it or no trim between clashing assets. There's a number of great-looking areas in maps where grass will naturally transition to mossy rock, or something similar, without any height/lighting differences, too.

 

The middle two I can agree with, unless you're intentionally trying to mess with players (meaning the rest of the map's design/aesthetics plays into that also).

[yakfak]

 

rate my doortrak

[Xaser]

Gonna dig up a PSA of mine from an older thread 'cause it's relevant here:

 

On 1/29/2021 at 7:45 PM, Xaser said:

A quick aside: if you're a new or relatively new mapper, or otherwise "in the market" for ideas on how to improve your maps, you are best off ignoring this thread (and others like it) in its entirety. You're never gonna please absolutely everyone out there, and "pet peeves" spam threads like these tend to collect a lot of strange or extremely-niche opinions that are best tossed into the bin. You'll drive yourself absolutely mad trying to use this as a checklist of "what not to do"; don't try it! Find your voice through constructive means.

 

[Nefelibeta]

41 minutes ago, yakfak said:

 

rate my doortrak

9/10 fireblu is better

 

Spoiler

Found it a bit annoying when people tell me to not place items in front of switch. When a soulsphere is pretty much essential for a very difficult fight, why is it a problem to force the players to grab it?

 

[Snaxalotl]

Here are things that come to mind for me.

 

-Unmarked Doors

-Inescapable Death Pits

-Not being able to 100% a level

-Harsh Flashing lights (Mainly flickering between pitch black and fullbright)

-Forcing the player to use the pistol for a full level

-Making secrets mandatory to complete a level

-Cramped environments that the player can get stuck on constantly
-Door Combat (Don't let the player hide in a door for every fight, you don't need a door for every room.

-Flat terrain (Good in moderation but try to mix up elevation periodically)

-Rectangular Rooms (Again fine in moderation but don't make every room a box with 90 degree angles, they often make a level look bland in excess)

 

And make sure you don't limit yourself by strictly following "rules", pretty much every suggestion has situations where they don't apply.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

Here you go

 

 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

The greatest mapping sin of all is never finishing that fantastic map you were working on, because you gave up or got distracted. And it's probably like, 90% finished, too.

 

Yeah, I'm looking at you.

 

Yes, YOU! Go finish that thing.

[Thelokk]

Inescapable death pits are fine. Don't remember Super Mario having elevators out of pits. You die, you die, end of story.

[limpbizkitfannickelbackfan]

One I found in the original Doom II that I hate is maps that are so confusing you have to run around the entire level like 5 times just to find that key you need or the next door you're trying to get to, or if you're an impatient GZDoomer, summon yellowcard. This is especially common in maps that contain quite a bit of doors and areas that look the same, big areas with a lot of maze-like turns, and just overall confusion. I don't mind a map making you backtrack a little, but when you run around for hours at a time going "WHAT THE FUCK DO I DO?!", it makes you not wanna continue playing.

[raymoohawk]

5 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

Inescapable death pits are fine. Don't remember Super Mario having elevators out of pits. You die, you die, end of story.

doom pits take too long to kill you making them annoying

[galileo31dos01]

map 30 is the icon of sins

[Thelokk]

1 minute ago, galileo31dos01 said:

map 30 is the icon of sins

 

Still puzzles me how that map made the cut. Still everyone remembers it, though for the all wrong reasons, so I guess it was a success as a finale. 

[Roofi]

[cannonball]

Incorrectly flagging an essential item like a key, making the map potentially impossible to finish.

[Martin Howe]

For me the #1 sin is enemies that drop items situated on ledges high above you when flying / jumping is not available (e.g. vanilla Doom) or disabled in MAPINFO/DDF/etc. At least provide a secret way to get into the galleries or maybe a teleporter, so I can pick up the stuff they drop. Making secrets mandatory to complete a level is the next worst; give those who want to slay demons and simply don't care about puzzle solving a way of completing a map.

 

[thiccyosh]

25 different secrets that give you no loot at all. I'm talking about like one health bonus or just one bullet clip.

[Thelokk]

1 minute ago, thiccyosh said:

25 different secrets that give you no loot at all. I'm talking about like one health bonus or just one bullet clip.

 

Irks me too, I think it's only pardonable when it leads to a bigger secret kind of deal, like Sunlust MAP07.

[Nefelibeta]

55 minutes ago, thiccyosh said:

25 different secrets that give you no loot at all. I'm talking about like one health bonus or just one bullet clip.

Here's your reward, a barrel to blow up. Have fun.

[Thelokk]

9 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

Here's your reward, a barrel to blow up. Have fun.

 

Who knows, maybe it's a barrel o' fun.

[Zulk RS]

Really any "Sin" or mapping "Rule" can be ignored provided the mapper is skilled enough. You gotta know the rules to break them but you can still break them if you know what you're doing.

 

That being said, there are two sins that I can think of that have no excuse:

 

-Map partially or totally broken: Unaccessible secrets, impossible fights, unreachable switches, Untextured surfaces etc. Basically these are less "Sins" and more "Opps! I forgot to test this part" so it's more like a mistake or a bug if anything. I don't think anyone, regardless of skill or experience, does this intentionally. It's always something that's a mistake that the mapper made by accident.

 

-Terry Traps or troll maps. Thankfully these are pretty extinct by now.

[xScavengerWolfx]

5 hours ago, yakfak said:

 

rate my doortrak

10 out of 10!

[xScavengerWolfx]

mapping sins.......just look up Underground toxicity the OG one, not the remake. play it and you'll know my mapping sins 

[CBM]

7 hours ago, RockyGaming4725 said:

What are some mapping sins you should never commit? I'll go first - 

 

• Not using doortrak/doorstop in doors
• Not having lower-unpegged on doortrak
• Unreachable items
• Suddenly switching textures with no border (support2, support3, or something similar) 

 

- doortrak and doorstop are nice but alternatives can be used

- not having lower-unpegged can be usefull for stuff like chains used as alternative to doortrak and doorstop to make it look like the chains are lifting the door

- that one I must agree with and I have been guilty of this sometimes sadly

- I agree however, all rules have exceptions

 

5 hours ago, Snaxalotl said:

Here are things that come to mind for me.

 

-Unmarked Doors

-Inescapable Death Pits

-Not being able to 100% a level

-Harsh Flashing lights (Mainly flickering between pitch black and fullbright)

-Forcing the player to use the pistol for a full level

-Making secrets mandatory to complete a level

-Cramped environments that the player can get stuck on constantly
-Door Combat (Don't let the player hide in a door for every fight, you don't need a door for every room.

-Flat terrain (Good in moderation but try to mix up elevation periodically)

-Rectangular Rooms (Again fine in moderation but don't make every room a box with 90 degree angles, they often make a level look bland in excess) 

 

And make sure you don't limit yourself by strictly following "rules", pretty much every suggestion has situations where they don't apply.

 

-unmarked doors can be fine if they are opened by a switch

-I agree ... no pit should be inescapeable unless its meant to kill the player

-I agree and I have been guilty of this, one should be able to 100% a level

-I think it can be ok and give a certain effect to a level

-I agree, unless its part of some theme for the level

-I agree, mandatory secrets are a big no no

-I agree mostly, but sometimes a map needs a little cramped space

-I think it depends on the map if door combat is a problem

-I agree, it looks better with variation if possible

-I agree, however, those rectangular rooms makes texturing much easier

 

 

[Murdoch]

Not enough ammo!

[shinola]

NOT playtesting (or getting someone to playtest) your map(s) from start to finish.

[Danlex]

7 hours ago, Nefelibeta said:

Found it a bit annoying when people tell me to not place items in front of switch. When a soulsphere is pretty much essential for a very difficult fight, why is it a problem to force the players to grab it?

It becomes a problem when you can get to that switch with more than 100% health. The soulsphere can be essential for the fight, but if I have enough health already it's nice to be able to save the sphere for later. Being forced to waste health or ammo is always annoying, especially in maps that have scarce resources.

[ReaperAA]

5 hours ago, Roofi said:

 

^THIS. Why bother giving the automap when you aren't going to even let me take some advantage from it.

 

This is the single biggest reason why I use iddt with textured automap turned on in GZDoom and DSDA-Doom.

 

9 hours ago, Nefelibeta said:

Found it a bit annoying when people tell me to not place items in front of switch. When a soulsphere is pretty much essential for a very difficult fight, why is it a problem to force the players to grab it?

 

As Danlex mentioned, it is slightly annoying when one already has enough health/armor that they don't need it. Suppose if a player completed one fight with 200% health to spare and are then forced to pick up a soulsphere to progress. Allowing that player to save that soulphere for later as a reward for doing good in their last fight (vs a player who gets through that same fight with less health) makes it more rewarding to survive with better stats.

[Quill]

When the map starts in an S-shaped room and you are immediately greeted with a secret sector.

[unraveler]

- Unnecessarily long elevator rides (Come on, this is Doom, not Dark Souls).

- No option for backtracking, especially after cleaning the final area (This is really annoying for us who have OCD, which means less than 100% is not an option).