Is this a trend? Or 3 is just a cursed number in general?

[unraveler]

First Half Life 2, then Back to Saturn X and The Adventures of Square!

[Jacek Bourne]

You forget Portal 2, Left 4 Dead 2, TF2. It’s mostly just valve games that cannot have a third installment and BTSX 3 is in development.

[unraveler]

58 minutes ago, Jacek Bourne said:

You forget Portal 2, Left 4 Dead 2, TF2. It’s mostly just valve games that cannot have a third installment and BTSX 3 is in development.

Dunno, none of them ended with a cliffhanger.

[Pixel Fiend]

Valve is working on some games. 

 

As for Back To Saturn X 3, next week you'll have a pretty similar wad to sweeten the time of waiting for it. 

[dac]

7 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

You forget Portal 2, Left 4 Dead 2, TF2. It’s mostly just valve games that cannot have a third installment and BTSX 3 is in development.

 

Valve so allergic to 3 that the 'third' Half-Life didn't have the number lmao

 

e: Valve give me DOTA 3

[OniriA]

The universe prefers things in pairs (and opposites). 

 

That's why we have a pair of everything. 2 eyes, ears, hands, etc. 

 

3 is what breaks the pair, it has a disruptive nature.  And therefore it's also a destructive number. 

[Tetzlaff]

On 4/30/2022 at 4:16 AM, OniriA said:

The universe prefers things in pairs (and opposites). 

 

That's why we have a pair of everything. 2 eyes, ears, hands, etc. 

 

3 is what breaks the pair, it has a disruptive nature.  And therefore it's also a destructive number. 

Not true! Two is the number of symmetry and pairings, but three brings it to a new level. Like father-mother-child. Or the Holy Trinity!

 

Many works of art are grouped in trilogies, very few in comparison as part 1 and part 2. Three parts feel more complete.

[OniriA]

2 hours ago, Tetzlaff said:

Not true! Two is the number of symmetry and pairings, but three brings it to a new level. Like father-mother-child. Or the Holy Trinity!

 

That's more of a Western Judeo-Christian philosophy then anything else. And I don't believe in the concept of the holy trinity or ascribe to it in any way.

 

You're free to see it that way, however.

[LadyMistDragon]

Gabe Newell is scared shitless of the number 3. So much that any of his future work with AI will not use numbers in multiples of 3.

 

[Thelokk]

Two, and even numbers in general, make me feel dirty on the inside. Odd numbers, three and seven in particular, are oddly satisfying. 

[SuperPecanMan]

I think a big part of the aversion to sequels is that the longer a series runs, the more hamstring the development becomes by trying to remain faithful to the past installments. And many of them want to try something new which a sequel obviously isn’t.

 

Something to consider is that many projects never have a sequel in the first place. So considering how rare a part 2 is, it would make sense that, assuming the same ratio, part 3s would be equally as rare comparatively.

 

Look at doom megawads for example. Let’s start with the assumption that 1/100 projects get a sequel (if I could realistically determine what the actual ratio is, I would, but my goal here is to illustrate how it compounds rather than calculate it empirically). Then if 1/100 of those get a sequel, then you have 10,000 part 1s for every part 3.

[Lippeth]

Spoiler

 

GTA 3

Super Mario Bros. 3

Witcher 3

Doom 3

Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind

Red Dead Redemption 2 (if technically Red Dead Revolver 3)

Metal Gear Solid 3

Duke Nukem 3D

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past

Super Metroid

Diablo 3

Dark Souls 3

Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3

 

 

[Shepardus]

Registered Doom was released with three episodes.

[Tetzlaff]

On 7/23/2022 at 3:59 PM, OniriA said:

 

That's more of a Western Judeo-Christian philosophy then anything else. And I don't believe in the concept of the holy trinity or ascribe to it in any way.

 

It's not just a Western or Christian thing, you can find triple deities in many cultures and mythologies around the world and through times. Examples: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Trimurti) in Hinduism, the Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno, Minerva) in ancient Rome, the three Norns in Norse mythology.

[Shepardus]

24 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

It's not just a Western or Christian thing, you can find triple deities in many cultures and mythologies around the world and through times. Examples: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Trimurti) in Hinduism, the Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno, Minerva) in ancient Rome, the three Norns in Norse mythology.

And not just mythology either - three is the minimum number of vertices needed to form a polygon, and triangles are used a lot in engineering and architecture for their structural rigidity. Far from a "destructive number," quite the opposite in fact.

 

On 7/23/2022 at 5:40 PM, SuperPecanMan said:

Something to consider is that many projects never have a sequel in the first place. So considering how rare a part 2 is, it would make sense that, assuming the same ratio, part 3s would be equally as rare comparatively.

There's no way the chance for each successive sequel is independent of the others, though, as the existence of sequels indicates a desire for more, and the sequels themselves can generate interest in further sequels. By the time you get to 67 (or maybe a little earlier than that), you can be pretty certain that there's a deliberate, organized effort making that happen.

[OniriA]

8 hours ago, Tetzlaff said:

Examples: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (Trimurti) in Hinduism, the Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno, Minerva) in ancient Rome, the three Norns in Norse mythology.

 

Shiva is the destroyer of the three though. The others are old European (Western) cultures, not unlikely having influenced much of the following Judeo-Christian thought aswell.

 

Whenever there is a third aspect involved it bears a destructive component because it either unifies or tears apart a pair.

If it can destroy, it should also be able to unite and vice versa as everything is created in pairs and opposites. Destruction is a process of taking apart united or gathered elements.

 

So I have to abide by the same logic, which is that 3 must have a unifying component next to its destroying aspect, but only under a certain condition.

If that condition is not met, 3 will turn into a destructive component (an aspect which it always held but didn't manifest).

 

Examples:

 

/\  <--- A pair is united under one mindset that is higher then both of them (worshiping God for example), the line of the triangles to the center is the development and journey towards their better selves until they are ultimately one thought and one mind. This structure appears in many cultures around the world.

 

/_ / - One follows the aspiration and mindset of others while forsaking themselves. A primal human tendency is to mimick others which is somewhat necessary for their initial material development, but a triangle (unification) cannot be formed this way. 

 

\/  - An inverse triangle connotes that both individuals of a pair follow their own aspirations or desires but are united only through material or worldly means, usually this sort of structure is already bound for destruction and is never long lasting. 

[sandwedge]

I think it's easier to make 2 of something than 3 of something.  Also Speed Squared is technically a 3rd episode for Adventures of Squared!

[Optimus]

I notice another trend or it's a myth, when some new game franchise becomes a trilogy, usually 2 is the top masterpiece and 3 is the decline. 1 makes it famous, so there are expectations for 2, so after that if 2 is epic then you have to overcome these expectations. At that point 3 or 4 or 5th is milked.

[HorseJockey]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:59 AM, OniriA said:

That's more of a Western Judeo-Christian philosophy then anything else

What about the concept of The Third Eye?

[esselfortium]

In the case of BTSX E3, a big part of it was that E1 and E2's maps and resources were largely developed concurrently with each other, while a lot of the E3 work was shunted off into the future because we could only focus on so much at one time. Then after E1 and E2 were released, I was dealing with burnout for a while due to the sheer amount of work that went into finishing those releases. There was also an extremely unhelpful incident in which the original development forum we used for E1 and E2 was completely lost due to a mishap involving a transfer of web hosting ownership.

 

But that's all in the past, and E3 is coming along nicely now : )

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, esselfortium said:

In the case of BTSX E3, a big part of it was that E1 and E2's maps and resources were largely developed concurrently with each other, while a lot of the E3 work was shunted off into the future because we could only focus on so much at one time. Then after E1 and E2 were released, I was dealing with burnout for a while due to the sheer amount of work that went into finishing those releases. There was also an extremely unhelpful incident in which the original development forum we used for E1 and E2 was completely lost due to a mishap involving a transfer of web hosting ownership.

 

But that's all in the past, and E3 is coming along nicely now : )

I know you're tired of questions about BTSX, but out of curiosity (if you don't mind): about how many hours a week do you spend working on it? How is the workload and personal investment compared to the first two installments? I don't think I'd be able to go three for three on something like that without compensation. I already have problems with my hands, but I find that making fine movements in UDB gets uncomfortable after a while. Has this been a problem for you working on this series continously for such a long time? 

[esselfortium]

11 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I know you're tired of questions about BTSX, but out of curiosity (if you don't mind): about how many hours a week do you spend working on it? How is the workload and personal investment compared to the first two installments? I don't think I'd be able to go three for three on something like that without compensation. I already have problems with my hands, but I find that making fine movements in UDB gets uncomfortable after a while. Has this been a problem for you working on this series continously for such a long time? 

Honestly, some weeks roughly 1000000 hours, other weeks roughly 0 hours. I just work on it when I'm motivated to do it and have the time to spare. Over the summer I made a ton of new textures and doubled the size of the resource from where it was during E1 and E2's development, and made a bunch of mapping progress during that time as well. Then I shifted gears to focus more on music and other work, then I shifted gears again to getting KDiKDiZD out the door. Now it's BTSX E3 time again, though it's always a bit of a slow start with getting back in the groove after wrapping up another project release.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your hand problems. I don't often get hand pain from using the computer (once in a while, though...), but I do struggle with general fatigue, which impacts how much I'm able to get done on a given day.

[Foodles]

If you're thinking about doom wads then as well as the ones you mentioned you also have Memento Mori 3, Hell Revealed 3, Deus Vult 3, Scythe 3, Action Doom 3 - none of which really exist as proper sequels made by the same people/teams that did the originals (I'm referencing that Doomer boards HR3 thing that I'm not sure even ever got released).

 

Then there's the old trope "the third album curse" where number 3 is supposedly more poorly received compared to the first two. I could also cherry pick some examples of third films in a series that were bad - Terminator 3, Alien 3, Hellraiser 3, Return of the Jedi, The Godfather just off the tope of my head...

 

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, Foodles said:

Then there's the old trope "the third album curse" where number 3 is supposedly more poorly received compared to the first two.

I thought with albums it was the “sophomore slump” - the band’s attempt to overcome or live up to the success of their debut album generally being considered inferior.

[Pegleg]

On 12/2/2022 at 3:48 PM, Foodles said:

If you're thinking about doom wads then as well as the ones you mentioned you also have Memento Mori 3, Hell Revealed 3, Deus Vult 3, Scythe 3, Action Doom 3 - none of which really exist as proper sequels made by the same people/teams that did the originals (I'm referencing that Doomer boards HR3 thing that I'm not sure even ever got released).

 

Memento Mori 3

Almost half of the team that made Memento Mori did not participate in Memento Mori II, and they were replaced with new people. I suppose you could say that they were both projects driven by The Innocent Crew, and they never made a Memento Mori III. I suppose you could say that was true, but they did make Requiem. While not a direct sequel to Memento Mori II, per se, it was many of the same contributors. The Möller brothers moved on to the Quake series after Requiem.

 

Hell Revealed 3

Considering that Hell Revealed and Hell Revealed 2 were made by completely different teams, it doesn't really fit on this list. There was a project kicked around Doomworld back in 2020 to make a Hell Revealed 3, but it's been dormant for over a year.

 

Deus Vult 3

Deus Vult 2 isn't actually finished, which is why a Deus Vult 3 has never been made. As it happens, Huy Pham is back to working on Deus Vult 2 (albeit slowly, since he's a full-time . graduated from college and is working full-time now).

 

Scythe 3

Erik Alm released the first two episodes of Scythe X, which is essentially Scythe 3. Given that he is currently the Principal Expert in Applied Molecular Epidemiology at the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control in Stockholm, and he seems quite happy and busy in that position, I doubt we'll see anything more from him anytime soon, even though he did have maps in process back in 2009. Still, he did release 10 maps, so there is that. 

 

Action Doom 3

Scuba Steve is apparently working on this. When asked about this in 2021, he replied "maybe next year?"

Edited December 6, 2022 by Pegleg : It's always good to finish your sentences.

[Foodles]

18 hours ago, Pegleg said:

 

Memento Mori 3

Almost half of the team that made Memento Mori did not participate in Memento Mori II, and they were replaced with new people. I suppose you could say that they were both projects driven by The Innocent Crew, and they never made a Memento Mori III. I suppose you could say that was true, but they did make Requiem. While not a direct sequel to Memento Mori II, per se, it was many of the same contributors. The Möller brothers moved on to the Quake series after Requiem.

 

Hell Revealed 3

Considering that Hell Revealed and Hell Revealed 2 were made by completely different teams, it doesn't really fit on this list. There was a project kicked around Doomworld back in 2020 to make a Hell Revealed 3, but it's been dormant for over a year.

 

Deus Vult 3

Deus Vult 2 isn't actually finished, which is why a Deus Vult 3 has never been made. As it happens, Huy Pham is back to working on Deus Vult 2 (albeit slowly, since he's a full-time .

 

Scythe 3

Erik Alm released the first two episodes of Scythe X, which is essentially Scythe 3. Given that he is currently the Principal Expert in Applied Molecular Epidemiology at the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control in Stockholm, and he seems quite happy and busy in that position, I doubt we'll see anything more from him anytime soon, even though he did have maps in process back in 2009. Still, he did release 10 maps, so there is that. 

 

Action Doom 3

Scuba Steve is apparently working on this. When asked about this in 2021, he replied "maybe next year?"

 

Fair point about HR2 being made by different people, I'd forgotten that.

I don't actually believe that 3 is cursed or anything like that - I cherry picked some examples but you could equally pick a few examples where the third of something was good e.g. community chest. Someone else made a point earlier where most things don't even get a second installment so it follows that a lot of things that do wouldn't get a third - and each of those that do get a third are unlikely to get a fourth and so on so you end up with a sort of exponential decay.

 

Also didn't realise Huy Pham had gone to be a full-time full-stop (or period for you Americans).

[Pegleg]

3 hours ago, Foodles said:

Also didn't realise Huy Pham had gone to be a full-time full-stop (or period for you Americans).

 

Ah, the joys of trying to do several things at once and forgetting to finish one of them. I meant to say that he graduated from college and is working full-time, which can lead to mapping ventures slowing down.