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Pistoolkip

In defense of negative feedback (split derail)

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A question on feedback to this group:

 

How do you provide feedback on a CP map that seems intentionally difficult, obtrusive, or broken? 

 

I've had to deal with a couple of contributors on CPs that seem to get a kick out of messing with the player or even the other mappers. Like locking the player in the same room for 30 seconds repeatedly or making a map impossible to finish after getting 100% kills.

 

The thing is, these mappers are usually not open to constructive feedback or refuse to make changes. They tend to be very defensive of their work. Call them trolls if you will.

 

Obviously, the CP lead can boot them out of the project but if they don't, how can I provide feedback in a way that doesn't feed the troll, but aids the CP in a meaningful way?

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7 hours ago, Megalyth said:

You uh, got some free time? A spastic mapper like myself could use some cold hard criticism.

One thing I don't have a whole lot of these days is time... If it's a small-ish map, maybe I can help out, but anything that would normally be considered medium or large - I don't think I'm going to be able to help with that...

 

57 minutes ago, Pistoolkip said:

How do you provide feedback on a CP map that seems intentionally difficult, obtrusive, or broken?

Generally speaking, a map for a CP can be as difficult as it wants to be as long as there is a way to actually beat it (outside of TASing it, I suppose). However, in the context of community projects (where most of my maps have gone over the years, all of which definitely more difficult than the average map, if not intentionally "unfair" in one particular case), the question that needs to be answered is whether or not a map like that is a good fit for the community project you are currently helping out with - however, if the CP-lead did not establish any boundaries with regards to difficulty (and most CPs don't have a "difficulty threshold") then you don't have a case, period. There is also the issue that you, as one play-tester out of several, may not be able to actually appreciate maps that go beyond a certain degree of difficulty, but someone else might actually like the map in question. The same principle applies to other "features" you may or may not "agree with". Whatever the case may be, in situations like that, you're the wrong tester for that one particular job. It's that simple. I've had people call stuff I made "bullshit" (one such person has also been posting in this here thread and made some decent points, btw) based solely on the fact that they couldn't beat something that I could do quite reliably and even with less resources than what has been provided, meaning the person in question was the wrong person to give feedback and I, as the mapper in question who, quite frankly, knew better in that particular situation was under no obligation whatsoever to make any changes to my map in order to make it appeal to somebody who, in principle, dislikes what I wanted the map to be like in the first place.

 

And I've also been accused of "not being very open to feedback" while mapping for a CP sort of under the breath. My "E3SECRET" (mapslot name) for JOM05 - winter weekend for example was met with criticism from some people over there, because not only was it arguably one of the most difficult maps in that CP, if not the hardest of the whole bunch (hence, relegated to a secret slot), but I've also been told that the map would be "improved" if I made a platforming section at the start of the map a part of "the rest of the map", where there would be tons of revenants around and about. And I could have done that, but I refused, because in order to make that happen and still end up with something "beatable", I would have needed to water down both the platforming and the biblical flood of revenants, as somebody else called it - I kept those things separate for good reasons, after all. When explaining my reasons for keeping things the way they were, I've been met with comments regarding my openness towards feedback from people who, quite frankly, thought that their ideas would have resulted in the improvement of something, the design goals of which they disagreed with in principle to begin with. The debate was then settled when I said I'd take the feedback on board for other maps I might make in the future, but I've mostly kept difficult platforming separate from monsters in my maps, or provided players with the option to take out the monsters first and then do the platforming after. Another example I could bring up was some passive-aggressive shit talking behind my back (which, of course, I found out about anyway, because it turns out that twitch chat isn't a private space) where the argument has been put forth that I shouldn't contribute maps to community projects at all, due to my tendency to make my maps somewhat difficult, if not brutal, compared to your average map, and I've been accused of "ruthlessness" and "ego-tripping" because I made stuff I enjoy (like every other mapper under the sun, by the way), which I then didn't water down in the interest of the "common folk" to the point where the map would have been something else in principle, and that me providing my reasons for anything I would or wouldn't do was mere "bitching and moaning" in the end. To make these anecdotes make any sense at all, unless the CP clearly establishes that maps beyond a certain degree of difficulty aren't going to make the final cut, there is no reason for anybody, be it mapper, tester, or even "onlooker" to discriminate map-validity based on how difficult something is or isn't. If it's not for you, don't play-test it, say that it's not for you, and why, and move on. It saves you a lot of time, it saves the mapper a lot of time, and the potential bickering won't stink up the discord server or feedback thread...

 

You've got to understand that, even though you're co-operating within the confines of the community project, not everything you come across will be your cup of tea, because some CPs attract mappers with wildly different backgrounds and preferences, and the fact that you've spent time testing something and wrote down what you think about it doesn't mean that you are entitled to seeing the things you disliked changed later down the line. I've play-tested maps in CPs I did not like all that much, and at most you should point out things where you were under the impression that something about the map didn't do the map as a whole any favours on a purely conceptual level, while keeping in mind that not everything you get your hands on has to be something you need to enjoy in order for it to appeal to somebody else.

 

You also wanna keep in mind that the situation in community projects is different from the sort of "dedicated" and "private" testing that I prefer to do, because, again, CPs attract mappers and play-testers of all sorts, so there will be incompatibilities between people when it comes to the maps themselves, and you're not doing anybody a favour if you keep laying your thumb down on this one thing you are unable to enjoy time and time again. Say your piece, and let somebody else do the testing. If everybody agrees that a map is "toxic", or at least not a good fit for the project, then that's when the project lead can have a final say on the matter.

 

2 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

Obviously, the CP lead can boot them out of the project but if they don't, how can I provide feedback in a way that doesn't feed the troll, but aids the CP in a meaningful way?

First of all, I'm quite certain that you would have called one of the meanest maps I made for a CP "a troll map", and me "a troll mapper" respectively. What I'm saying is that you are getting to make your case here while the mapper in question is unable to defend themselves, and their respective map is unavailable for examination. If I want to be charitable, and go under the assumption that the mapper is indeed a vile asshole, then you say your piece, you let the supposed "troll" say their piece, and then you let the project lead decide what needs to happen next.

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7 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

A question on feedback to this group:

 

How do you provide feedback on a CP map that seems intentionally difficult, obtrusive, or broken? 

 

I've had to deal with a couple of contributors on CPs that seem to get a kick out of messing with the player or even the other mappers. Like locking the player in the same room for 30 seconds repeatedly or making a map impossible to finish after getting 100% kills.

 

The thing is, these mappers are usually not open to constructive feedback or refuse to make changes. They tend to be very defensive of their work. Call them trolls if you will.

 

Obviously, the CP lead can boot them out of the project but if they don't, how can I provide feedback in a way that doesn't feed the troll, but aids the CP in a meaningful way?

Okay, this is probably going to end up resulting in a double-post, but this I just have to make an example of, and just to make sure people are on the same page once I get down to business, I'll provide some quotes with links for context:

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2487333

Quote

@LSC Lasiko Map 26 (No Doomworld account?) @dotQLL
Speaking of hate, I absolutely despise this wretched piece of trash map. This CANNOT be included in its current state. I spend 15 minutes trying to beat this thing, then removed all the blocking things, and spend another 15 minutes trying to beat this and when I FINALLY beat it (with cheat), I couldn't get to the exit? Because getting the blue key seems to depend on the AVs triggering a certain linedef before they teleport in. Once they have teleported in the map cannot be finished.
And that's a no go for me.

Further more, the impassable lines and blocking decoration make dodging missiles too awkward, and the lack of cover means you got cacodemons, revenants and hitscan fire coming in from all directions, and the map is too dark to even spot the cacodemons.

Personally I am not font of slaughter maps, but when I do play a slaughtermap, I want to feel like I have some amount of control with moving around and dodging projectiles. This map is just random, frustrating, and I don't see a way how any Doom player  but the top 1% can beat this with 100% kills without needing at least a 100 attempts. 
Edit: also, if you try to activate the side of the pillars on which the blue key rests, the AVs teleport in and the blue key becomes inaccessible

I recommend this one be severely altered or rejected from the CP. 

Could you imagine how pissed you would be if you spend 100 attempts and finally kill all the monsters, only to discover that you could not reach the exit?

And that quote here is taken from none other than "pistoolkip", who is now asking how in the world they could possibly provide constructive feedback to someone who goes by the doomworld forum handle "%some random internet shkila", who, on just a cursory glance, has absolutely shown willingness to make their map easier, and address problems that were brought to their attention.

 

Moreover, this supposed "troll" went out of their way to work some "quality of life features" into their map, to make it a bit more enjoyable for the inclined player:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2485842

Quote

updated my map.

changes:

1. added two bulk cells and a box of shells that don't appear on easy difficulty.

2. picking the blue key now kill all the hit scanners that should teleport on pillars (so you won't have to clean them by hand)

3. the pillars that chaingunners stand on are now much brighter

nothing else changed,  ignore the file name, the map name still should be "ILL star, dying star"

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2487366

note that the following quote is taken from the supposed troll's reply to the "feedback" provided by pistoolkip, who called the respective map a "wretched piece of trash"

Quote

Aye, that’s me. My doomworld name does not correspond to my doom mapping name because reasons.

anyway, thanks for your input. I kinda went too overboard with my map (this is kind of my style). 
i will basically make a new update for this map. That update will have the revenant count of HMP, because, in my experience playing it, the revenants were the most problematic. And playing on HMP, this map is a lot more pleasant because it has less revenants.

And the bluekey thing i dunno how to fix so you just gotta not be a dum.

I will not remove the decorations because i don’t want to sacrifice this map’s style.

also, the “too dark” part. It’s supposed to be like hell revealed’s “afterlife”, but due to vertex limitations and the skybox i kinda just made a pitch black platform to simulate that.

 

From where I'm looking at this, the problem here is not that the mapper has any intentions that would amount to fucking with everybody who plays their map on purpose, the problem is plain and simple technical ineptitude, or something as simple as mere oversights that could be fixed within a reasonable amount of time. The fact that you, @Pistoolkip, are now prancing around as if you played no part whatsoever in how the communication between you and the respective mapper took a turn for the worse makes you, quite frankly, a disingenuous liar, who is in no position whatsoever to even call themselves a play-tester who is able to deliver feedback in a respectful way - and as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't play-test anything until you've got at least a small degree of self-control. As far as I'm concerned, you can consider yourself fortunate that the chord you struck there didn't result in a warning - rest assured I'd give you one without a moment's hesitation, because that stunt you pulled there while now acting all pure and holy after framing the respective mapper as a "troll" is the kind of shit that drives mappers away from communities - not to mention that it creates bad attitudes and expectations towards play-testing and play-testers when it seems perfectly acceptable for play-testers to throw a temper-tantrum while the mapper is being chastised for responding in kind (or in this case way less than that).

 

Play-testing happens in order to find stuff that breaks, and if you cannot handle finding stuff that breaks to a degree that you don't end up lashing out at the mapper in question (and calling a map "a wretched piece of trash that you despise" is lashing out no matter how you slice it), then play-testing is not for you. Stuff that breaks can happen to anybody who makes a map, and most of the time, these errors fly under the radar of the mapper, because they're playing their own map knowing literally everything in advance, which means they are the least likely ones to find the kinds of problems a play-tester who knows nothing about the map would stumble upon.

 

Had you called any of my maps a wretched piece of trash, because something broke and you just got frustrated, I would have torn you a new blowhole on the spot at the very least. I'll tell you straight I made plenty mistakes in the past when it came to providing feedback, which is largely owed to the fact that I tend to be very blunt at times - nobody is perfect, but never in a hundred years would it ever occur to me that I had any right to insult someone who is demonstrably trying to improve like you did right there, and then trying to wiggle my out of the mess I made by way of saying "I was only talking about your map - not you"... Your attitude towards play-testing and mappers stinks, and you don't even have the maturity that is required to look at the crap that's fallen out of your own ass.

 

The fact that somebody else felt like they could chastise the mapper in the respective thread despite the fact that it's you who started flinging shit around is quite frankly ridiculous, and as far as I'm concerned, you and everybody else who assumed to be in a position to talk down on the mapper owe them an apology - not the other way around...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Wow, that's quite an assinine and hypocritical move right there..

Very awkward and shameful stuff to be honest.

 

Especially the fact that it's happened so recently on this very forum and from someone who is directly asking you

for an opinion in a thread about constructive criticism.

 

Life is full of irony, isn't it?

 

I know I've said earlier in the thread that I usually don't read long stuff, but you're usually the exception @Nine Inch Heels

 

Edited by OniriA

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1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Okay, this is probably going to end up resulting in a double-post, but this I just have to make an example of, and just to make sure people are on the same page once I get down to business, I'll provide some quotes with links for context:

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2487333

And that quote here is taken from none other than "pistoolkip", who is now asking how in the world they could possibly provide constructive feedback to someone who goes by the doomworld forum handle "%some random internet shkila", who, on just a cursory glance, has absolutely shown willingness to make their map easier, and address problems that were brought to their attention.

 

Moreover, this supposed "troll" went out of their way to work some "quality of life features" into their map, to make it a bit more enjoyable to the inclined player:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2485842

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2487366

note that the following quote is taken from the supposed troll's reply to the "feedback" provided by pistoolkip, who called the respective map a "wretched piece of trash"

 

From where I'm looking at this, the problem here is not that the mapper has any intentions that would amount to fucking with everybody who plays their map intentionally, the problem is plain and simple technical ineptitude, or something as simple as mere oversights that could be fixed within a reasonable amount of time. The fact that you, @Pistoolkip, are now prancing around as if you played no part whatsoever in how the communication between you and the respective mapper took a turn for the worse makes you, quite frankly, a disingenuous liar, who is in no position whatsoever to even call themselves a play-tester who is able to deliver feedback in a respectful way - and as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't play-test anything until you've got at least a small degree of self-control. As far as I'm concerned, you can consider yourself fortunate that the chord you struck there didn't result in a warning - rest assured I'd give you one without a moment's hesitation, because that stunt you pulled there while now acting all pure and holy after framing the respective mapper as a "troll" is the kind of shit that drives mappers away from communities - not to mention that it creates bad attitudes and expectations towards play-testing and play-testers when it seems perfectly acceptable for play-testers to throw a temper-tantrum while the mapper is being chastised for responding in kind (or in this case way less than that).

 

Play-testing happens in order to find stuff that breaks, and if you cannot handle finding stuff that breaks to a degree that you don't end up lashing out at the mapper in question (and calling a map "a wretched piece of trash that you despise" is lashing out no matter how you slice it), then play-testing is not for you. Stuff that breaks can happen to anybody who makes a map, and most of the time, these errors fly under the radar of the mapper, because they're playing their own map knowing literally everything in advance, which means they are the least likely ones to find the kinds of problems a play-tester who knows nothing about the map would stumble upon.

 

Had you called any of my maps a wretched piece of trash, because something broke and you just got frustrated, I would have torn you a new blowhole on the spot at the very least. I'll tell you straight I made plenty mistakes in the past when it came to providing feedback, which is largely owed to the fact that I tend to be very blunt at times - nobody is perfect, but never in a hundred years would it ever occur to me that I had any right to insult someone who is demonstrably trying to improve like you did right there, and then trying to wiggle my out of the mess I made by way of saying "I was only talking about your map - not you"... Your attitude towards play-testing and mappers stinks, and you don't even have the maturity that is required to look at the crap that's fallen out of your own ass.

 

The fact that somebody else felt like they could chastise the mapper in the respective thread despite the fact that it's you who started flinging shit around is quite frankly ridiculous, and as far as I'm concerned, you and everybody else who assumed to be in a position to talk down on the mapper owe them an apology - not the other way around...

 

Weird, I come asking for advice and call me disinginious liar?

 

For your information, this was not the example I was talking about in my example. In a previous cp, a different mapper put four w1 "close all doors, wait 30 seconds, open door" lines in his map. When he was asked to remove them or at the very least, bring them back to a single such linedef, the mapper responded with "no, I think it's funny to lock the player in multiple times". That is what a troll is to me.

 

 

On your example: Yes, I did overreact, but I do feel my criticism of the map in that states was warranted. This was my first emotional response to the map. I then explained why. I never attacked the mapper, called them names, or used explicitives.

 

I was genuinely surprised by the mappers willingness to change the map, but grateful, although I haven't tried the most recent version yet. We have also DMed to sort our differences. 

 

So I don't understand why you feel the need the attack me like this. 

 

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I'm glad you DM'ed him and admitted your overrraction. Criticism is important, even the harsh ones - but when you start calling someone else's work "a piece of trash", it's where you cross the line. It's not helpful or informative, just shitty. Keep in mind we are all here doing this stuff in our spare time, to have some fun.

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22 hours ago, HrnekBezucha said:

I don't want to point fingers or anything but I felt like one mapper reacted pretty unreasonably to Pistoolkip's testing video in the 64 vertices CP. Also, I feel like many testers tip-toe around legit criticisms in the public spaces. Those being the only testing environments I have experienced so far. Moral of the story is, don't call tester dumb, especially when your map is literally unbeatable.

 

1 hour ago, Pistoolkip said:

 

Weird, I come asking for advice and call me disinginious liar?

 

For your information, this was not the example I was talking about in my example. In a previous cp, a different mapper put four w1 "close all doors, wait 30 seconds, open door" lines in his map. When he was asked to remove them or at the very least, bring them back to a single such linedef, the mapper responded with "no, I think it's funny to lock the player in multiple times". That is what a troll is to me.

 

 

On your example: Yes, I did overreact, but I do feel my criticism of the map in that states was warranted. This was my first emotional response to the map. I then explained why. I never attacked the mapper, called them names, or used explicitives.

 

I was genuinely surprised by the mappers willingness to change the map, but grateful, although I haven't tried the most recent version yet. We have also DMed to sort our differences. 

 

So I don't understand why you feel the need the attack me like this. 

 

This is the context we're all able to look at, plus the links and quotes I provided earlier... The other stuff that isn't visible here at all I can't comment on, but I will also be upfront and tell you that it is of practically no consequence to anything I've pointed out, sans the minor issue that I may have been wrong when it came to who you considered to be a troll. However, the fact remains that we have to take your word for it, and the mapper in question is not present to say their piece. Whatever happens on discord, unless it is so absurdly vile that it violates forum guidelines against off-site-harassment, is entirely inconsequential to the case I made. I would also like to add that I've gone out of my way to give you the advice you have been asking for, while also giving you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the example that you say I'm confusing with something else.

 

I also stand by what I said:

  • If you hurl insults in somebody's direction, be it at them directly or at something they put time and effort towards (and honestly, nobody cares how often we dive into semantics here - you snapped pretty damn hard at someone, it's that simple), just because you got frustrated at something,
  • and then you go out of your way to ask how you could deliver constructive criticism that directs things into a positive direction,
  • while what you're doing is the opposite of what you say you wanted to accomplish
  • then you have set yourself up quite formidably for what came your way, because it does come across as disingenuous

Outbursts like that are of negative value for the mapper, yourself, the community project in question as well community projects in general, and to a lesser extent possibly even the community at large. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt again, and go under the assumption that you managed to sort things out for good, but you've got to admit that what I've found within a mere minute of browsing these forums looks pretty damn ugly - and most definitely worthy of condemnation - regardless.

 

Telling a mapper that you found something that breaks is one thing, that's valid, and for technicalities like that there is usually a way to tell if that's the case. Lashing out at a mapper like you did, again, bad move. It doesn't matter if the problems you've found in the map are concrete facts like technical aspects, or subject to personal preference. You don't get to treat people like that while also saying that you would love to be told how to step up your "testing-game" - It's a community project where it is about working together to deliver a product, and not some difference of opinion with someone you don't need to get along with at all. It is glaringly obvious what you shouldn't be doing, and asking me why I made an example of you in a thread that is about how acceptable negative feedback is (and how receptive people should be when negative feedback is given), which typically comes down to delivery and context, is baffling to me, because the reason I made an example of this is self-evident.

 

Again, if I confused some things, sorry about that. Regardless, treating a mapper like that on a forum where you have all the time in the world to look at what you're about to send, and then being surprised - or at least confused - as to why you're getting a slap on the wrist that you no doubt deserved (and should be able to take on the chin, considering the matter of fact that you're no stranger to playing rough), that's just baffling to me...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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7 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

 

This is the context we're all able to look at, plus the links and quotes I provided earlier... The other stuff that isn't visible here at all I can't comment on, but I will also be upfront and tell you that it is of practically no consequence to anything I've pointed out, sans the minor issue that I may have been wrong when it came to who you considered to be a troll. However, the fact remains that we have to take your word for it, and the mapper in question is not present to say their piece. Whatever happens on discord, unless it is so absurdly vile that it violates forum guidelines against off-site-harassment, is entirely inconsequential to the case I made. I would also like to add that I've gone out of my way to give you the advice you have been asking for, while also giving you the benefit of the doubt with regards to the example that you say I'm confusing with something else.

 

I also stand by what I said:

  • If you hurl insults in somebody's direction, be it at them directly or at something they put time and effort towards (and honestly, nobody cares how often we dive into semantics here - you snapped pretty damn hard at someone, it's that simple), just because you got frustrated at something,
  • and then you go out of your way to ask how you could deliver constructive criticism that directs things into a positive direction,
  • while what you're doing is the opposite of what you say you wanted to accomplish
  • then you have set yourself up quite formidably for what came your way, because it does come across as disingenuous

Outbursts like that are of negative value for the mapper, yourself, the community project in question as well community projects in general, and to a lesser extent possibly even the community at large. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt again, and go under the assumption that you managed to sort things out for good, but you've got to admit that what I've found within a mere minute of browsing these forums looks pretty damn ugly - and most definitely worthy of condemnation - regardless.

 

Telling a mapper that you found something that breaks is one thing, that's valid, and for technicalities like that there is usually a way to tell if that's the case. Lashing out at a mapper like you did, again, bad move. It doesn't matter if the problems you've found in the map are concrete facts like technical aspects, or subject to personal preference. You don't get to treat people like that while also saying that you would love to be told how to step up your "testing-game" - It's a community project where it is about working together to deliver a product, and not some difference of opinion with someone you don't need to get along with at all. It is glaringly obvious what you shouldn't be doing, and asking me why I made an example of you in a thread that is about how acceptable negative feedback is (and how receptive people should be when negative feedback is given), which typically comes down to delivery and context, is baffling to me, because the reason I made an example of this is self-evident.

 

Again, if I confused some things, sorry about that. Regardless, treating a mapper like that on a forum where you have all the time in the world to look at what you're about to send, and then being surprised - or at least confused - as to why you're getting a slap on the wrist that you no doubt deserved (and should be able to take on the chin, considering the matter of fact that you're no stranger to playing rough), that's just baffling to me...

 

I came seeking advise on a topic I'm having trouble with, and you start out by pointing out everything I'm doing wrong and calling me a liar for seeking advice on the very thing we both agree I'm having trouble with.

 

To me, that's so much worse then what I did. What I did was communicate my first emotional response when playing that map, then trying to explain why. Because that first response is genuine, and has merit, and is warranted. And it's my opinion on the map, not the mapper

 

But you see someone asking for advice, then go dig up dirt on them, then attack them personally for asking for advice. You not just criticize my actions, but disrespect me as a person.

 

 

I honestly don't understand why you feel you need to do this, to do this publicly, and then double down when I ask you not to.

 

You say you are giving me the benefit of the doubt but you are clearly not, and then you are saying you are surprised that I don't approve of your response and should be able to handle it, when me literally telling you I don't appreciate it, should be more than enough of an indication that you should not double down.

 

And the ironic part is, you are claiming to teach me how to better provide feedback.

 

 

Well, you feedback on how I should provide feedback had certainly been a good lesson on what not to do.

 

Because you:

- called me a disingenuous liar

- said my words are "ugly and worthy of condemnation"

You use demeaning phrases like "self-evident", and "glaringly-obvious" and "no-doubt deserved" as if your opinion on my actions is fact 

- You casually suggest that what I might have said on DM could be even more "vile"

- You give no advice on what I should have done, only that what I did do was wrong, so your feedback is 100% negative and not-constructive

 

And finally, if you think my response to your feedback is wrong, badly phrased, or irrational:

 

You harvest what you sow

It shows that the way you tried to give me advice/feedback, clearly doesn't work

 

 

 

Edited by Pistoolkip

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3 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

I came seeking advise on a topic I'm having trouble with, and you start out by pointing out everything I'm doing wrong and calling me a liar for seeking advice on the very thing we both agree I'm having trouble with.

No, I've been calling you a disingenuous liar for asking how you ought to be dealing with mappers/trolls who make their maps intentionally difficult, obtrusive, or whatever else, while you are the one flinging shit in other people's directions despite the fact that what they're doing isn't anywhere near as egregious as a play-tester who is incapable of understanding that their supposedly "genuine" feedback is of negative value.

 

Your problem isn't that you're having trouble with giving feedback to people whose maps and ideas you dislike, your problem is that you think that there is any merit whatsoever in calling anybody's map a wretched piece of trash, despite the fact that it should be self-evident to anybody who wants to help others improve that such an abusive behaviour towards somebody, who clearly did not deserve that kind of treatment, cannot possibly yield any positive results at all.

 

In pointing that out, I am implicitly telling you how you should improve your feedback game. What did you expect? That I can perform miracles like telling you that something you did was wrong without telling you that something you did was wrong? If you expected that, why don't you try telling a mapper that something's broken without telling them that something's broken - see how that goes...

 

It's one thing to say that, yes, you did overreact, yet you managed to sort things out with the respective mapper (which, again, we'll have to take your word for) - but it's another thing for you to go hyper-defensive when you're being told precisely what about the way you're delivering feedback doesn't work at all. There is no way on earth to make "wretched piece of trash you despise" sound good - the way to make your feedback more palatable is to avoid stuff like that, and that should go without saying. Your temper tantrum in the thread I linked was disruptive, it soured the mood of several people, resulted in back and forth bickering between you, the mapper in question, and some other people who saw themselves fit to chastise the victim of your unwarranted temper tantrum instead of chastising you, how it should have been. And despite the fact that you can click the thread right now, and see for yourself the mess you've made, you're still arguing that what you did was fair game and worse than that, you think there is merit to your approach in spite of hard evidence that suggests that it is disruptive. If you had at least a shred of interest in improving the way you do stuff, you'd own up to your mistakes, and admit that it would have been way better for everyone involved if you just said that the way the map played was frustrating for you, instead of breaking out the heavy toys - the use of which being entirely indefensible in this case. It's the same feeling you convey, just way less hostile.

 

You aren't really looking to get better at providing feedback, because if you were, you would plain and simple accept that shit-talking somebody else's map is a no-go when it's blatantly obvious that they're actually trying to deliver the most polished product they are able to create - even if it's not going to appeal to everybody in the end.

 

3 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

But you see someone asking for advice, then go dig up dirt on them, then attack them personally for asking for advice. You not just criticize my actions, but disrespect me as a person.

Yes, I did indeed do some digging, because it was brought up in this thread that you had to deal with a mapper whose supposed reaction to your feedback was said to be unjustified. I, still giving you the benefit of the doubt, had a look around, because I was hoping to find the respective mapper who was supposed to be the problem (and also to develop a more informed perspective), so that I could tell you exactly what I would have done in that situation... And all I found was the exact opposite of what I was made to expect: You were the problem in that exchange - the mapper didn't do anything wrong until you started flinging shit at their work and them by transitive property - and as far as I'm concerned, they didn't do anything wrong when they chose to give you a small taste of your own medicine either. The fact that it's been presented in this thread as though the mapper was the problem is nothing short of absurd.

 

3 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

I honestly don't understand why you feel you need to do this, to do this publicly, and then double down when I ask you not to.

You asked publicly, the problem I brought up about the way you're providing feedback is public, the fact that you're in denial is public, and thus you're being told more than once - also publicly. Besides, you're not quite in a position to cry foul when I'm doubling down here, are you? Just asking, because that's the exact same thing you did to the mapper by dismissing their request to be a bit less mean next time you provide them with feedback by way of saying "just talking about the map, not you", despite the fact that it's obvious that they took it personally. Worse than that, you then also tripled down by telling them that their map "is bad for your health". And let's not forget that you're claiming your abusive delivery has merit to it, while you bemoan the fact that all I'm doing here is telling you straight up what went horribly wrong, without beating around the bush, and without any candy-coating. I'm more polite towards you than you were towards the mapper in this case.

 

3 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

And the ironic part is, you are claiming to teach me how to better provide feedback.

You asked me what I think you ought to be doing and how. I've been telling you, right at the top of page 2 of this thread what it is that I think you should be doing, it's right there for everybody else to see. You can keep pretending that it doesn't exist, but that doesn't magically make it go away. I've taken time out of my day to write that stuff, because I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought to myself that what you're dealing with is a problematic case. There is no irony on my side here at all. I have answered your question in pretty great detail - if anything, I am annoyed at the fact that I made time to write up that small essay, only to find out later that you're being outright abusive towards the very people you pretend to be helping - and you don't need me to tell you that you've been abusive, nor do you need me to tell you that you shouldn't do that.

 

3 hours ago, Pistoolkip said:

Well, you feedback on how I should provide feedback had certainly been a good lesson on what not to do.

 

Because you:

- called me a disingenuous liar

- said my words are "ugly and worthy of condemnation"

You use demeaning phrases like "self-evident", and "glaringly-obvious" and "no-doubt deserved" as if your opinion on my actions is fact 

- You casually suggest that what I might have said on DM could be even more "vile"

- You give no advice on what I should have done, only that what I did do was wrong, so your feedback is 100% negative and not-constructive

 

And finally, if you think my response to your feedback is wrong, badly phrased, or irrational:

 

You harvest what you sow

It shows that the way you tried to give me advice/feedback, clearly doesn't work

-Yes, you are being disingenuous as far as I'm concerned, because claiming that there is merit to an approach that somebody else finds unpalatable, which also happens to disrupt the harmony among other contributors to a community project is absolutely dishonest. There is no nice way to say that what you did registers as abusive, but there is most certainly is a nicer way to say that you did not have a good time with somebody else's map due to the state it is currently in. You can keep on pretending that you don't deserve to be made an example of, but what I've found after doing some research is so egregious that, again, I'm surprised you didn't get warned for your outburst - in fact, I'm also surprised that the project lead didn't react to reign you in, which indicates a lack of leadership-skills in my opinion, but CP-management is a topic for another day and a different thread...


-Yes, calling anybody's work "a wretched piece of trash that you despise" is pretty damn ugly, no matter how you slice it, and if you had any interest in stepping up your game you'd simply accept that, just like any mapper who wants to deliver a more polished product would accept that something needs fixing in case it's broken.


-My opinions on your actions are based on facts. You calling somebody else's map "a wretched piece of trash", and me pointing out that it is in no way constructive feedback is a fact. You can keep on living in wonderland, where denial is king for all I care. It's a matter of fact that you messed up the way you should have been giving feedback, and if you don't want to be told that what you're doing is wrong, then don't pretend that you're interested in any feedback at all.

 

Yes, I'm using terms like "self-evident" when something is self-evident, and I use terms like "no doubt deserved" when there is no doubt whatsoever that someone deserved something. There is nothing demeaning about it, and even if there was, it's certainly a long shot from calling the way you've provided feedback "wretched shit that I despise". In no uncertain terms: You are asking for the kind of "courtesy" that you yourself are unable or unwilling to provide or live up to.

 

No, I did not suggest that you said anything via DM that was even more vile. You should read what I've written a few more times before you accuse me of something you wouldn't be able substantiate even when held at gunpoint.

 

Yes, I did give you several paragraphs worth of advice, and claiming once again that I didn't, even though it is right there, doesn't win you this argument on the internet.

 

Yes, you do harvest what you sow, and it turns out that's exactly what happened to you, but somehow you seem to have a problem with that. Anyway, it's readily apparent that this isn't worth my time any longer. You seem like the type of person who believes to be in a position to dish out, only to cry foul as soon as the wind blows the other way. I'm well aware of how blunt I can be, but at least I have the decency to be upfront about it, moreover, I'm not crying on somebody else's shoulders when someone else is as direct with me as I am with them. You on the other hand..? You want people to put on velvet gloves when they're talking to you while you claim the right to be "brutally direct" exclusively for yourself whenever you feel like it, regardless of how it's being received. I've got bad news for you: That's not how things work. The reason I can "afford" to be as blunt as I am is that I can take it when somebody else is equally blunt with me, and unless you can say the same for yourself, you'd do well to exercise some restraint in how you're interacting with the very people who you ought to be assisting.

Here's my piece of advice, probably the only one you need: Don't play-test anybody's maps again, ever. You are the wrong person for the job, you have the wrong attitude for the job, and this exchange between us made self-evident that you are incorrigible as is demonstrated by how you keep on defending something for which there is no place whatsoever in an environment that requires co-operation. Sooner or later you'd be stumbling upon another map that annoys you, and then we're gonna be here again, discussing the supposed merit of abusive behaviour towards mappers, who are trying their best while they're still learning the ins and outs of basic mapping...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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