Do Barons like doors? Now 3 Megawads somehow?!? Open for bonus levels

[sandwedge]

New note from Clippy: baron door is full - but there is room for bonus door - the second megawad for late maps so everyone can be included - simply make a map that has a baron opening a door in some fashion and you are in - limit removing - doom 2 format - stock textures

 

OK.  Someone brought up that they think Barons are less likely to open doors.  I think this is crazy.  Clippy made this map to test it out and the baron opens the crap out of that door, but some people still seem to think they are "less likely" to.  Is it possible the way they walk around contributes to this?  Do we need another Decino analysis video?  Am I losing my goddamn mind?

 

Here's the map that Clippy made to "prove" his point.  Ignore the fact that he unintentionally trolled me super hard by messing up the door key.  He opens that door... BUT WOULD ANOTHER DEMON HAVE DONE IT FASTER?!!?  Do I need to run this map 100,000 times for a proper sample size?  Don't think I'm above it.

 

 

I should note that the baron opens the door SEVERAL TIMES in this video on different runs just be aware of that

Edited June 4, 2022 by sandwedge

[Snaxalotl]

Barons can't open doors and this pseudoscience is not convincing me.

[Clippy]

Quote

 

Mytgh busted ladies and gentlement cause looky here

 

file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DGkiSJZghCYA0sMQHSLYkwwsGZ8SoCGK/view?usp=sharing

 

amd here it is the actual proof as filmed - standard dooms 2 format so no silly business this is real and its spectacular

 

get file and see impress ur friends at parties

 

 

[sandwedge]

Folks, let's all calm down and be reasonable.  Reason will prevail.

 

But seriously clippy that doesn't prove anything and I WILL PUT MY THUMB THROUGH YOUR EYE

[Clippy]

omg brb

[knifeworld]

baronsoffun.zip
here's my "3 sector" map I mentioned testing this, rofl

[MrGigglefingers]

I don't think there's anything in Doom's code that affects the demons' proclivities towards doors. If I had to guess, Barons seem to open doors less often because they can't fit through some doorways.

[Doomkid]

Barons ARE doors

[sandwedge]

Just now, MrGigglefingers said:

I don't think there's anything in Doom's code that affects the demons' proclivities towards doors. If I had to guess, Barons seem to open doors less often because they can't fit through some doorways.

 

See, this is the type of reasoning I was looking for.  An excellent observation.  One only hopes that clippy and co make a wad exploring all of the different varieties of doors so we can finally put this vexing question to rest.

[Snaxalotl]

1 minute ago, MrGigglefingers said:

I don't think there's anything in Doom's code that affects the demons' proclivities towards doors. If I had to guess, Barons seem to open doors less often because they can't fit through some doorways.

You don't understand, you need to look at the nuances of baron placement over the last 20 years. Its not about if they can't, but if they will. Its not like we can look at the source code and solve this mystery for sure either, so speculation is all we have for now.

[MrGigglefingers]

6 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Barons ARE doors

My rockets are the key

[sandwedge]

3 minutes ago, Snaxalotl said:

You don't understand, you need to look at the nuances of baron placement over the last 20 years. Its not about if they can't, but if they will. Its not like we can look at the source code and solve this mystery for sure either, so speculation is all we have for now.

 

Ask not what a Baron will do for a door

[Clippy]

Guys if you liked Baron Door

 

you will love Baron Door 2 - quadruple times the barons and so many doors eh

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17hn162Ig0hIHPpdxn-7-iuKQdMMZkOqd/view?usp=sharing

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

11 minutes ago, Clippy said:

Guys if you liked Baron Door

 

you will love Baron Door 2 - quadruple times the barons and so many doors eh

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17hn162Ig0hIHPpdxn-7-iuKQdMMZkOqd/view?usp=sharing

Can you make a map where you play as a Baron and the object is to open doors? That would be fun.

[Clippy]

1 minute ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Can you make a map where you play as a Baron and the object is to open doors? That would be fun.

u could always just pretend ur a baron

[Snaxalotl]

1 minute ago, Clippy said:

u could always just pretend ur a baron

Its not the same, I want to know what its like to be a giant worthless slab of meat that doesn't belong in the game.

[Clippy]

1 minute ago, Snaxalotl said:

Its not the same, I want to know what its like to be a giant worthless slab of meat that doesn't belong in the game.

 

What I like to do is get a green gardening glove, you know the one with the pointy bits on the fingers and wear it over a pink sock on my arm then you can walk around with your arm out to get a real world first person perspective of having a baron arm

[Clippy]

36 minutes ago, knifeworld said:

baronsoffun.zip
here's my "3 sector" map I mentioned testing this, rofl

 

I played your map it was educational and fun and I survived effortlessly

 

 

[out_of_service]

Checkmate, Atheists.

[sandwedge]

ok @Clippy and @knifeworld I'm back from the lab with your test results and initial findings are encouraging, but still limited.  Clippy, while you did raise the sample of Barons and doors in the map, which did help to ease some of my doubt, they were all of identical shape and size and thus did not respond to the reasonable doubts raised by Dr. MrGigglefingers.  The type of door is a matter in this debate.  That is why I must praise knifeworld for identifying the door issue and proving a sample of 2 different types of doors.  One was very small too, and the Baron's head happened to be lodged in a ceiling.  This did not seem to affect the subject's proclivity to open said door.  I find this does advance our theory of Baron-Door relations but I still don't think it is conclusive.

 

At the end of the video I raise some of my doubts about these maps providing an exhaustive account of Baron-Door relations.  While it may be a pessimistic outlook, I wager that we must be able to test out how a Baron interacts with many different doors in many different environments in order to fully put this debate to rest.  I don't know what it will take.  I don't know how long.  Maybe we won't find out today.  And maybe not tomorrow.  But we have the means, we have the technology.  And I shall not rest until we come to a satisfactory conclusion.

 

 

[Clippy]

@sandwedge this should adhere to add the guidelines you stated

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W6jWKmBA0R4OX9DD8KWzPQefqTE0LX1U/view?usp=sharing

[Murdoch]

 

1 hour ago, MrGigglefingers said:

I don't think there's anything in Doom's code that affects the demons' proclivities towards doors. If I had to guess, Barons seem to open doors less often because they can't fit through some doorways.

 

I concur with this conclusion. Doom's AI is pretty damned basic, and there's no selectivity in the door opening code. Most likely the myth is based on the observation where certain combinations of floor and sector heights mean that the Baron can't "Reach" the door cleanly even though a glance might make it look like he should be able to pass through cleanly. It is perhaps similar to the engine quirk where Doomguy can "Reach out and grab" an item on a sector that's too high for him to step up to if you run hard enough at it and it's close enough to the linedef. So perhaps the Baron, when presented with a certain combination of floor and ceiling heights, needs to get the angle just right for the code to give the OK for him to trigger the door.

 

1 hour ago, Snaxalotl said:

You don't understand, you need to look at the nuances of baron placement over the last 20 years. Its not about if they can't, but if they will. Its not like we can look at the source code and solve this mystery for sure either, so speculation is all we have for now.

 

First rate sarcasm 10/10.

 

 

[Nefelibeta]

Of course they do, and my favorite thing is to camp next to the door and shoot them with SSG for 2 hours straight. So much fucking fun

[Zulk RS]

This is actually an interesting questions and I am posting here primarily to be updated on what conclusion the thread comes to.

 

Doom's AI is the same for all monsters when it comes to opening doors but how does Monster Size effect opening and closing doors? Are Arachnotrons and Mancubi too big to open doors provided the doors are big enough? Do bigger monsters open doors more often because their bigger size makes them reach the door quicker? What about monsters with faster speeds like Demons, Revenants and Archies? Very interesting.

[sandwedge]

40 minutes ago, Clippy said:

@sandwedge this should adhere to add the guidelines you stated

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W6jWKmBA0R4OX9DD8KWzPQefqTE0LX1U/view?usp=sharing

 

This adheres to the guidelines and more.  I apologize for my earlier haranguing of your work, as occasionally I tend to be rather... overzealous with critiques.  It's just my passion for science, you see.  But what you have here, yes... it's beautiful.  Simple.  Elegant.  Extracts the necessary variables from a complex situation, but is as simple as it can be without oversimplifying.  Parsimonious, one might say.

 

In my mind, what this wad does is shift the debate in a rather exciting way... It is not whether a Baron may open a door.  But rather, is there any door they CAN'T open?  The samples here are wildly out of line with a typical real world door usage case.  Perhaps one might approximate a fast food window, another a demon gloryhole, but the middle?  There is no real world counterpart.  Yet the Baron opens it all the same.  I will need ample time to digest these findings, but I think we're on the verge of something great.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

I concur with this conclusion. Doom's AI is pretty damned basic, and there's no selectivity in the door opening code. Most likely the myth is based on the observation where certain combinations of floor and sector heights mean that the Baron can't "Reach" the door cleanly even though a glance might make it look like he should be able to pass through cleanly. It is perhaps similar to the engine quirk where Doomguy can "Reach out and grab" an item on a sector that's too high for him to step up to if you run hard enough at it and it's close enough to the linedef. So perhaps the Baron, when presented with a certain combination of floor and ceiling heights, needs to get the angle just right for the code to give the OK for him to trigger the door.

 

These are all important points.  I realize I have not spent enough time thinking about the angle of the dangle, as it were.  There are a lot of possibilities here.

 

22 minutes ago, Zulk RS said:

This is actually an interesting questions and I am posting here primarily to be updated on what conclusion the thread comes to.

 

Doom's AI is the same for all monsters when it comes to opening doors but how does Monster Size effect opening and closing doors? Are Arachnotrons and Mancubi too big to open doors provided the doors are big enough? Do bigger monsters open doors more often because their bigger size makes them reach the door quicker? What about monsters with faster speeds like Demons, Revenants and Archies? Very interesting.

 

I appreciate your statement of interest.  Yet you contribute so much more... until now we have just been considering Barons.  Yet there is an entire bestiary of demons with varying shapes, sizes and arm lengths and configurations... not to mention the fact that it is quite alarming that an arachnotron with seemingly no appendages can also operate doors.  Of course, discoveries in these new domains will likely yield new insights for Baron research as well.  I'm afraid much of this is beyond the scope of our current funding, but I still appreciate fresh ideas that provide room for the debate to grow.

 

Thank you all.

[Pistoolkip]

The reason why Barons are less likely to open doors, is because they are small and slow.

 

Faster monsters, like Revenants and Archviles, are more likely to open doors because they reach the door quicker and have more actions per minute to check if they want to move through the door, because their movement takes less frames. 

 

The same with Pinky's and Arachnotrons, because of their relative size they get closer to the door quicker, provided they can reach the door. 

 

[Pechudin]

28 minutes ago, Pistoolkip said:

Faster monsters, like Revenants and Archviles, are more likely to open doors because they reach the door quicker and have more actions per minute to check if they want to move through the door, because their movement takes less frames.

 

I'd wager the speed is the more important factor (actions/minute). Put an Archvile in a room with a door, and he will bump into it more times in a minute than say, a Mancubus. Monster size does play a part, but I'd say it only matters for very small rooms (monster size/room size comparable).

[Clippy]

Here is the current version of the BARON DOOR megawad so far

 

5 maps as posted throughout the thread with baron door action, and a new 5th map called Blue Plinko

 

Will the price be right? Or will it be very, very wrong

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wksfRP2j7-e3NJ0JXLhO2B8FhjdWCW8t/view?usp=sharing

[sandwedge]

14 minutes ago, Pechudin said:

 

I'd wager the speed is the more important factor (actions/minute). Put an Archvile in a room with a door, and he will bump into it more times in a minute than say, a Mancubus. Monster size does play a part, but I'd say it only matters for very small rooms (monster size/room size comparable).

 

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Seriously, id, why isn't this funded? The world needs to know. Scientific Doom community hungers for answers. Delicious, delicious answers. Gobble them all up, really savour the taste of knowledge. Mmhmmm, yum!