[Suggestions] If Final Doom had new enemies...

[Rudolph]

What would they have been?

 

The fantastic Final Doomer+ mod has me covered as far as unique weaponsets go, but as far as I am aware, there has yet to be a Final Doom-themed monster mod. My modding skills are rather rudimentary, so I am not sure if I could do one myself; I guess I could always use Realms667's Beastiary as a source.

 

However, I still have no idea what enemies could be added to TNT Evilution and Plutonia that would not ruin the vanilla Doom II balance.

 

Well, no, scratch that: I guess I would make the Wolfenstein SS a common enemy, only with new sprites and sounds. Maybe a Zombie Marine?

 

What about you, folks? What enemies would you add to TNT Evilution and Plutonia?

[GarrettChan]

...is this really a suggestion when you're "suggesting" something in 1996?

[Faceman2000]

Plutonia is so intrinsically designed around each enemy’s placement and abilities in every scenario that messing with it at all via replacing enemies with new ones years later is only going to result in an inferior combat scenario.

[D4NUK1]

I'll only add 1 monster per game.

 

Plutonia gets a Super Pinkie: A Pinky more faster and can sustain at least 1 rocket or 1 SSG Blast more than a normal Pinkie.

 

TNT gets a Nigthmare CacoDemon: A Cacodemon with a ghostly style, just like the Nigthmare Imps or Nigthmares Pinkies-

[Rudolph]

11 minutes ago, D4NUK1 said:

Plutonia gets a Super Pinkie: A Pinky more faster and can sustain at least 1 rocket or 1 SSG Blast more than a normal Pinkie.

That one, I might be able to do myself!

 

I guess I could always replace the redundant Spectre with one of Realm667's Pinky variants. Maybe the Playstation Nightmare Demon?

[thiccyosh]

Super Chaingunner: imagine a Spiderdemon, but smaller and slimmer.

[Zulk RS]

So... designing new monsters for Doom is hard. From what I've seen from using mods that change monster behavior (Brutal Doom) or add new monsters (Complex Doom) or even trying to use some of the Realm667 monsters myself and playing against the skulltag exclusive monsters, Doom's bestiary is extremely well balanced and covers most scenarios.

 

Really the only 3 monsters I can think of that might add something to the bestiary that isn't already covered by an existing monster would be:

 

-Machinegun Zombie: A simple reskin of the SS soldier because I feel like there's a gap between Zombiemen and Chaingunners when it comes to rapid fire enemies.

 

- Particle Cannon Zombie: A zombie that shoots a very high damage projectile (no splash damage) but has low health. Basically something that can take out the player in 2-3 hits but is as easily killed as the zombieman. Think an imp sized cyber demon that shoots rockets without the splash damage.

 

- Super Baron: Something stronger than a baron but weaker than a cybie. Like how in Doom 2, there was a power gap between a Baron and an Imp so the Hell Knight was added, I think there's a similar power gap between the Baron and the Cybie.

[Rudolph]

What do you know, Realm667 does have a Double Chaingunner!

 

And also a Chaingun Spider! :o

Edited May 25, 2022 by Rudolph

[GarrettChan]

44 minutes ago, Faceman2000 said:

Plutonia is so intrinsically designed around each enemy’s placement and abilities in every scenario that messing with it at all via replacing enemies with new ones years later is only going to result in an inferior combat scenario.

This is very true IMO. From 1996's standpoint, both TNT and Plutonia have squeezed the extra bit of the game pretty fine. TNT was going for the more environmental kinda feeling of maps while Plutonia was going for the harder combat experience kinda route. Nobody can vision that after all these almost 30 years, the game is still going strong and has different map formats to break the limits.

 

Don't really have an opinion about people playing with a MOD, but still sometimes I still can't understand why not just play another game because it's not the "Doom" anymore

[Rudolph]

7 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Don't really have an opinion about people playing with a MOD, but still sometimes I still can't understand why not just play another game because it's not the "Doom" anymore

Oh, I am fine with vanilla Final Doom myself; arguing with @zokum made me wonder what enemies could have been added to the mapsets, since the excellent FinalDoomer+ mod already has the "new weapons" aspect covered with its Plutonia and TNT Evilution-themed weaponsets.

[GarrettChan]

1 minute ago, Rudolph said:

Oh, I am fine with vanilla Final Doom myself; arguing with @zokum made me wonder what enemies could have been added to the mapsets, since the excellent FinalDoomer+ mod already has the "new weapons" aspect covered with its Plutonia and TNT Evilution-themed weaponsets.

Then it's a weird question to ask then. Both Final Doom WADs are completely fine with the current setting, so I don't know why people like to get some "headache" to add stuff to it.

[Luleta]

just add different colored wolfenstein ss so they can be like power rangers :D

[Rudolph]

@GarrettChan Well, the same could be said about the entire Doom modding scene.

[Hypercube]

1 hour ago, thiccyosh said:

Super Chaingunner: imagine a Spiderdemon, but smaller and slimmer.

Trooper's Playground actually did have super chaingunner marine. The wad is from same year as Final Doom.

[Dexiaz]

[Rudolph]

@Dexiaz Did Adian (sic) Carmack intend the Revenant to be a boss monster? :P

[Roofi]

I would see sentry turrets in TNT evilution like in the rf's Ultimate Doom Episode "Mapgame" or Half-Life games , it would fit well with the tech-base atmosphere and the large presence of hitscanners. Static enemies would definitely be a good add for me. (See at 21:00 in the video.)

 

 

[ax34]

Arch-pains

[purist]

I'm going to approach this from the perspective of new monsters being created during the design phase. 3 monsters for each.

 

Plutonia was very strategy orientated so the monsters would fit the gameplay challenges the Casalis like to employ.

 

Sentry Gunner

Stationary chaingunner that cannot be destroyed but can be stunned to briefly interrupt it's attack, like a painchance.

 

This serves the purpose of the turret chaingunners so plentiful in Plutonia and would replace the infinitely respawning chaingunners.

 

Sprite Vile

A lesser version of the arch vile. Quicker to kill and no resurrection ability but keeps the same attack.

 

The Casalis used Viles primarily for their attack rather than their resurrection ability and I think they would appreciate a weaker variant that they could use more commonly.

 

Banshee

Floating revenant. Same everything else except maybe a lost soulesque charging punch for when it is fancies a change from homing missiles.

 

Not much to say here except I think the Casalis would think of a ton of uses for Revenants not limited to terra firma. They may never place a cacodemon again. 

 

Evilution was more about atmosphere but there were some gameplay tropes that new monsters would compliment.

 

Plasma Zombie

A former human type equipped with a plasma rifle and dropping cells.

 

TNT uses a lot of former humans, which results in hit-scan hell. This monster would allow for a projectile variation of the theme.

 

Fire Knight

I can't remember the name but it's the Valiant Hell Knight that chucks out a ton of fire projectiles.

 

The purpose of this monster is area denial. Evilution uses lots of wide open spaces that this creature could spice up a little and keep the player on their toes.

 

Mother Demon

Uh-oh, it's the boss!

 

It's not so much what the monster does as opposed to being an effective final boss. I feel like Evilution really could have used an alternative to the Icon of Sin, even more than Plutonia.

Edited May 25, 2022 by purist : Adding TNT monsters

[sandwedge]

Lower health cyber demons.  Those are awesome and fill a niche that other monsters don't.  I.e. devastating attack but mid tier-ish health, sort of like a rocket launcher baron.  see Pagodia for a great example.  I feel like Plutonia would have abused these in fantastic ways too, lol.

[Dexiaz]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Did Adian (sic) Carmack intend the Revenant to be a boss monster? :P

 

By judging the appearance, I think it is, lmao. It might be very powerful enemy.

[Tycitron]

Honestly i think just making reskins for some of the demons to match plutonia/tnt's looks (and maybe Final Doomer+'s weapons) would be best.

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, Tycitron said:

Honestly i think just making reskins for some of the demons to match plutonia/tnt's looks (and maybe Final Doomer+'s weapons) would be best.

True! 

[Redneckerz]

I suppose you could have just visited Realm667 first, get inspired, make an attempt at an enemy, and then make a thread about it versus being surprised that R667 has practically everything you want covered, and then wondering if you could make that.

 

But who am i kidding. Let's see what you make of your custom enemy Rudolph.

[NeoWorm]

DooM roster is well ballanced but I think it could use some tough and dangerous flying monster. Something akin to a flying cyberdemon, maybe with more interesting firing pattern like Mancubus. I think Afrits that quite a few mods add kinda fits this role but are boring as mud.
Other interesting design the vanilla DooM lacks is a granade launcher type monster. Granade that bounces, can get in places where other projectiles can't and can stay on the ground for a while to effectively create a enviromental hazard. As alternative it can be monster that just spawns some kind of enviromental hazard. Diabolist from Supercharge is good example.

[Stupid Bunny]

Plutonia needs an archvile that also has chainguns and homing missile launchers.  Would've saved the Casalis some time

[Rudolph]

45 minutes ago, NeoWorm said:

DooM roster is well ballanced but I think it could use some tough and dangerous flying monster. Something akin to a flying cyberdemon, maybe with more interesting firing pattern like Mancubus.

It just so happens that Realm667 also has the Volacubi (a flying Mancubus variant) and the Haedexebus.

 

Lots of cool ideas so far that seem doable by a novice modder like me. Keep it up, folks! :D

[Captain POLAND]

A Revenant that fires only homing missiles that pass through walls

An Arch-vile that resurrects itself and other Arch-viles

An Arachnotron that fires as fast as the player's plasma gun

A Cyberdemon that fires homing rockets

[Doomkid]

I do feel like there are some (small) holes to be filled in the Doom 2 enemy roster. The enemies we ended up with are fantastic, but a few that I can always easily find uses for in any given map are the ones I've added to several of my wads by now:

 

Plasma zombie - Half the ROF of an arachnotron and the health/movement speed of a Chaingunner.

 

SS Nazi - but with a sprite that doesn't look ridiculous. Always great when you want a rapidfire hitscanner that doesn't drop a chaingun and doesn't do (frankly cheap) amounts of damage per second.

 

Something fast-but-weak like a demon/revenant, but with less OP fireballs than the revenant. Think of a slightly faster, slightly smaller/weaker Hell Knight.. I've made many variations of the "psycho imp"/"alien imp" over the years that fill this hole. Revenants are a good enemy, but they get old a lot faster than most mappers seem to think. 80 damage rockets that come out of nowhere = fine in limited doses. That's where a lot of maps slip up imo, heh. Even slow-ass Hell Knights at least have a balanced attack and go down fairly quick.

 

Flying enemy - Something between a Lost Soul and Caco health-wise, but faster than either one, and maybe even with a "weak" version of the arachnotron's attack, or something along those lines. Hell, maybe even an enemy that shoots flames, or some other limited-range but rapidfire attack. I've filled this niche with Flame Cacos in some of my wads, but they're usually a bit tougher than cacos. A weaker variant could work just as well!

 

 

[gwain]

something close to the realm667 satyr 

https://www.realm667.com/index.php/en/beastiary-mainmenu-136/421-satyr

 

or maybe a new boss monster going with the giants of spider and cybie