Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
BomberBlur07

How do people enjoy hard maps?

Recommended Posts

I've known I was a masochist since I was about eight years old. I would frequently whip my hands and feet with a belt and pay other kids at school to beat me all over my body. I enjoy the feeling of walking on glass and the small pool of blood beneath my feet. I am addicted to fire, whips, chains, and anything and everything that will feed my desire for physical pain.

 

Anyway, I can't really answer your question because I don't play many hard maps. Sorry.

Share this post


Link to post

To put it simply:

As a player's level of skill rises, so does the required difficulty of a level for the player to feel challenged and entertained.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, in my case... I play this type of thing more than anything to try to get rid of some annoyance that I have had during the day or at key moments in my life, this being an unusual way to vent the anger and hatred that I have for several things, although also knowing how to choose my options in this regard, since there have been Wads that I really consider not to be up to trying, but that thought I will have to get rid of sooner or later, anyway, between the frustration , you can find fun, and I think that's the factor that makes games totally addictive, to keep trying and trying until you win in the end.
(I say this because I have played games with similar themes, among them, the sequel to Hotline Miami in its Hard mode, and thanks to this, losing every moment should not be an obstacle for me)

 

P.S.: By the way @BomberBlur07, here I have something that maybe can help you with your circumstance about the first levels of episode 4, as a previous comment had said, you just have to be careful, be patient with the gameplay, know how to manage your resources well and observe around you, pay attention to everything on the map to come up with strategies that help complete the challenge and support yourself with everything you have available at that time.
(let's ignore the fact that I messed up twice on level 2, huh)

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by ElPadrecitoCholo

Share this post


Link to post

I personally like it when maps are challenging, cus there comes a feeling of satisfaction when you finally overcome it.

Share this post


Link to post

This is easier if u play repeatedly

 

But harder Putonian experiment + hideus destructor mod on gzdoom 

 

Is pain in the asss

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Most of this forum has been playing Doom for the past 30 years, they've had a whole lot of time to get good and simpler maps can be very boring for them.

Share this post


Link to post
52 minutes ago, MrGigglefingers said:

Most of this forum has been playing Doom for the past 30 years, they've had a whole lot of time to get good ...

 

Improvement is more about hours spent in dedicated and effective practice, rather than sheer hours playing the game. 

 

For a narrow definition of "good," a big chunk of people who are really skilled at Doom got there within 2-4 years of playing because of hyperfocused improvement. For example, Daerik, Starduster, KineticBeverage, and David Assad are pretty new players. 

 

For a more modest definition of "good," then it's more about whether one has decided to play through lots of very difficult wads in whatever style -- which can be done in less time than that. 

 

So there are a lot of people who have been around for a long time and haven't "gotten good" -- which is fine. 

Share this post


Link to post

Well, that's an interesting question. I wouldn't exactly call myself a masochistic gamer but I absolutely hate-love challenging BUT FAIR games. You mentioned From Software and they are very good at that. As for why I think it's a combination of:

     -1. The satisfaction of finally overcoming that which has been pummeling me into the ground for hours (or sometimes even days).

     -2. This need or desire to not give up against overwhelming odds.

     -3. Gradually learning and adapting my plans to overcome that challenge, whether it's a boss in Dark Souls or a particularly nasty fight in a Doom Wad, the process is the same. Learn, adapt and overcome.

     -4. The memory of it is something I can remember for a long time. The first two maps in E4 absolutely wrecked me for a long time until I managed to get through them. Now, they are my favorite maps in E4, and quite frankly, many of the other maps in E4 I don't even remember whereas I remember almost every single enemy in E4M1 and E4M2.

     -5. The damn obsession of it. (I am currently playing Sekiro:Shadows Die Twice (by far the most difficult game I have ever played) and this boss I am working on now has killed me over a dozen times. I am so obsessed with him that he haunts my dreams. Sad thing is, he's one of the earliest bosses in the game so unless I git gud (as they say) this game is going to take a long time).

 

There are probably other reasons for why (pride is one of them, I hate the idea of giving up on something).

 

But the key word for me is FAIRNESS. If it's just difficult because of bad design or bullshit mechanics I am not interested at all. If it's genuinely well done, but challenging or difficult, that's perfectly acceptable. But I will take a break in between these kinds of experiences. If I finish a particularly nasty slaughterwad for example, I probably won't play another slaughtermap for a few months.

Share this post


Link to post

Time to make an update post.

 

I managed to get through E4M2, but it was with saves so I didn't feel that much of an accomplishment. M3, 4 and 5 were much easier and much more fun to play.

 

Then came E4M6.

 

That should say everything I felt when I tried to play that map. I guess I'm just not a fan of Romero, which is a shame because his E1 maps were great.

 

Checking wad reviews, man I don't know what to say. People praising the hard maps as the best ones, like I don't get it. I just don't understand how people love these maps. And don't even get me started on Plutonia, I can't even get past map 01.

 

Are you guys masochists or something?

Share this post


Link to post

That's not a matter of being masochistic (though I'm sure some Doom players are...), frankly people are just better at this game than you realize.

Share this post


Link to post

Are you playing keyboard-only? Plutonia Map01 is mean, and you can accuse it of trial-and-error design, but like Plutonia in general, it's very beatable with proper routing. But I play M&KB, and if you're a keyboard purist, you will have a much, much harder time with Plutonia and the popular megawads that followed in its footsteps. Here's how I play it:

 

Spoiler

Clean out the shotgunners in the upper gallery in the first room and collect the powerups (especially the backpack!) in the obvious "secret" room opposite the passage to the rest of the level. Take that passage and go back and to the left. In the room down that hallway, a pair of chaingunners will attack you from behind when you move to clear out the imps, but that's good: Kill them and take their chainguns, using the key pedestal for cover if needed. If you know they're coming, they're easy targets.

 

Chaingun in hand, go to the hallway back and to the right of the main passage from the starting room. When you approach the door, a double-chaingunner trap will spring behind you. This can really hurt when you only have a shotgun, but with a chaingun, you can stun-lock them and grab their medkit, no problem. Enter the crate room and use your chaingun to kill the monsters there. Use the corner box on the opposite side of the room: It's an elevator to the super shotgun. When you take the SSG, watch out: One of the crate stacks will drop into the floor and release an arch-vile. You have lots of cover, so use the SSG to kill the arch-vile, dodging out of sight as needed.

 

Leave the crate area and head back to the main field. Don't go upstairs just yet. We still want the rocket launcher. Head into the vine-covered, watery room to the right, go all the way to the end of the hallway, and press the switch there. This will open chambers containing a rocket launcher and boxes of rockets, but it will also release four revenants. Shoot them with the super shotgun. You can use the pillars in the rocket-launcher room for cover, risking getting cornered, or you can run into the open outer room, depending on how comfortable you are dodging revenant rockets. Do a little curlicue to dodge homing rockets and you should be fine.

 

Collect the rocket launcher and the ammo, and now finally head upstairs. An arch-vile will appear behind the chaingunner on the perch beside the window, continually reviving him. It's not really a problem, though. You can use the rocket launcher to kill it, either now or later. Kill the chaingunners in the upstairs room and take the door across from the stairs to enter the raised crossroads room.

 

You'll face two nasty ambushes here, but nothing a rocket launcher or the SSG can't handle. First, a revenant will pop up in your face. Kill it, and then, when you approach the door on the other side of the crossroads, a room with a cacodemon and a pain elemental will open up. Kill the pain elemental as fast as you can. You should have the shotgun ammo or the chaingun ammo to deal with it.

 

At this point, you've basically won the map. Go into the side rooms of the crossroads, hit the switch to open the door to the red skull, and kill the mancubus that pops up, taking care not to get torn up by the chaingunners to either side of you. Get the key and head back to the room with the blue skull pedestal. Go through the red door, hit the switch, kill the two chaingunners who appear behind you, and take the blue skull from the lowered pedestal. Go into the last room, the one straight forward from the stairway, kill all the enemies in there with whatever ammo you have left, and take the blue-door hallway to the exit teleporter.

 

This is just how I play it. It can be optimized much better.

 

Well designed levels reward exploration. Don't be afraid to get smacked down a few times exploring the space and finding better weapons, ammo caches, armor, etc. Usually you won't be expected to kill hell nobles, mancubuses, and arachnotrons with plinky first-tier weaponry, so if you see beefy enemies, avoid them and look for a super shotgun or a rocket launcher.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, BomberBlur07 said:

Checking wad reviews, man I don't know what to say. People praising the hard maps as the best ones, like I don't get it. I just don't understand how people love these maps. And don't even get me started on Plutonia, I can't even get past map 01.

The secret is to spend a minimal amount of time whining about it, and the necessary amount of time practising these maps...

 

Here's the thing: In terms of "hard" maps, stuff like plutonia barely moves the needle compared to the actually hard maps this community has brought forth over time. You have no idea how hard maps can actually get while still being humanly possible. What I am saying is that you're "not getting" stuff that would register mostly as "intermediate" difficulty nowadays - just to put your musings into perspective a little bit...

 

7 hours ago, BomberBlur07 said:

Are you guys masochists or something?

It's a matter of not sucking, not a matter of masochism...

Share this post


Link to post

For me personally it's for roleplaying.

I feel like the Doom Slayer (cause let's be real, Doomguy has only a fraction of the body count) if Im backed against the wall with 10 HP left punching my way through walls of Demons after I ran out of ammuntion what feels like 3 hours ago.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The secret is to spend a minimal amount of time whining about it, and the necessary amount of time practising these maps...

Or using the designated whine-time to actually open up Google and do some research. I can't imagine how many Plutonia map01 guides and playthroughs are on Youtube. Or maybe even actually asking for advice here instead of asking why people enjoy the things they do. Of course they had to use the Souls series as an example, which is required when discussing difficult games, even though it's a drop in the bucket compared to many popular NES and SNES games, which are a drop in the bucket compared to games that are actually fucking hard.

 

Of course, I look at OP's other thread, titled "UDB Is Not User Friendly" and I see that he got over thirty helpful replies and didn't bother to respond to even one person. So it appears to me that there is no actual discussion to be had here.

Share this post


Link to post

With extra lotion and tissue paper; I can get through anything hard. 


With that said, I do have my limits, but

I at least expect the same level of difficulty I would find on some of the toughest IWAD maps at minimum, because if it’s easier than that then it feels like a back step for me because I haven’t played the base games on lower than UV since 94. The only exception is for WADs that are meant to be far harder than UV was originally, I would lower the setting if it is too overwhelming.
 

I’m not one of those people who thinks if you play on lower settings you’re not worthy or whatever, but I am tired of people with lack of skill blaming hitscanners, projectiles, level design, etc. when yes, those things can make things harder (or easier) depending on how the map is set up, but the true issue at hand is the players lack of skill 9/10, not the design of a particular stage. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Or using the designated whine-time to actually open up Google and do some research. I can't imagine how many Plutonia map01 guides and playthroughs are on Youtube. Or maybe even actually asking for advice here instead of asking why people enjoy the things they do. Of course they had to use the Souls series as an example, which is required when discussing difficult games, even though it's a drop in the bucket compared to many popular NES and SNES games, which are a drop in the bucket compared to games that are actually fucking hard.

 

Of course, I look at OP's other thread, titled "UDB Is Not User Friendly" and I see that he got over thirty helpful replies and didn't bother to respond to even one person. So it appears to me that there is no actual discussion to be had here.

Judging by the fact that OP never replied to any of the comments here and after checking that stupid thread, I think it's safe to assume that the OP is either a troll or just not very smart.

:/

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, I don't want to be rude, and I don't want to join the dogpile here, but I wrote the OP a guide on how to beat Plutonia Map01 because it's mean, but not very hard. You should definitely be able to beat it with saves. The idea is to get you used to facing ambushes for each bit of meaningful progress. For Plutonia Map01 to be unbeatable made me wonder if the OP had some fundamental mechanical difficulty. If it's not mechanical, then it's probably mental: You need to approach the game with a willingness to explore, the reflexes to go for cover if needed, and the good sense to conserve your ammunition.

 

That said, from the perspective of someone struggling to beat E4, Plutonia's pretty tough, and E4's difficulty, certainly for novices and casual players, is well known. Speaking for myself, the pleasure of beating maps that challenge me, even maps that look impossible at first, lies in solving the combat puzzle the level designer laid out for me to solve, and in gaining the mental and physical dexterity needed to solve it. Solving one hard map gives me more tools for solving a harder map: As MtPain27 said, it's like "unlocking" more Doom for myself.

 

You say in the OP that you miss the mindless approach of action games from the late 2000s and the early 2010s. I don't know which specific games you mean, just as I don't know which wads you mean when you say the "good" wads are grindy, but I can think of a few you might mean. That kind of mindlessness will serve you really badly in Doom, particularly in Plutonia and the fan-made wads that belong to the "canon" of great wads. They're not designed to be breezed through without a second thought, but to be played and replayed. It sounds like you might need to change your mindset and expectations a little to see what other people see in these "masochistic" maps. If worst comes to worst, dial down the difficulty a little, and enjoy a more casual experience.

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/11/2022 at 12:30 PM, BomberBlur07 said:

(Off topic, I miss the mindless approach late 2000s, early 2010s games took. I wish they did that type of games again.)

 

How do people even enjoy these kinds of hard maps?

Well, I sure don't. I even coined the phrase "2009-2010 hallway disease" as an indictment towards games like Final Fantasy 13 and Metroid: Other M. I similarly despise MMO-style sidequests for wasting my time with "interactivity" that amounts to literally nothing of substance. Back to Doom, I don't like maps that are too easy compared to my skill level because they make me feel not just utterly bored, but so apathetic that I forget the whole of their content soon afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/11/2022 at 3:30 AM, BomberBlur07 said:

On my way to beat Doom 1 on UV, the first two maps of E4 wrecked me. They are super grindy, super hard and not fun at all. I always get enraged when I play these maps. Yet, many of the "good" wads out there are super hard and grindy. I don't get it. How do people even enjoy this shit? This can also apply to other games as well, I never liked the Souls games for example. (Off topic, I miss the mindless approach late 2000s, early 2010s games took. I wish they did that type of games again.)

 

How do people even enjoy these kinds of hard maps?

 

Well first of all, E4 has to be played with saves. Some people like to do no-save runs, but if you're doing E4 on UV, I think saving is a must. 

 

Secondly, I love E4 and part of what makes those very levels so good is that it forces you to think outside the usual Doom box.

 

On E4M1, for example, it's short but far from sweet. There's a ton of enemies and not nearly enough ammo to just blast your way through as usual. Moreover, the most health in the entire level is just 10 bonuses. So you really have to a) make your shots count/have good aim and b) make good use of in-fighting and splash damage to conserve precious ammo. There's a secret containing a rocket launcher, as well as a couple extra shells. What I do is once I trigger the NIN secret, I don't shoot because then the monsters will spawn in and trap me. Instead, I run back outside to the skull key area from before. As the demons spawn in from behind me, they group up on my position, in front of the gate. The Pinky's can't reach me, and the Barons are behind them. So the Barons, aiming for me, take out the Pinkys, and then they're all grouped up together so I can use the Rockets efficiently to annihilate most of them, and my remaining shells will finish off the straggler. Then with the Barons out of the way, I can go back to the secret and feast my eyes upon the NIN symbol. Or just exit with 100%, either way.

 

On E4M2 pistol start, again you don't have enough shells to kill all the Cacos coming at you. What you got to do is lure away the Caco guarding the rad suit by walking to the edge of the cliff but not off, get him out of the way before others show up, and then jump down and get the rad suit; pick up the shells on your way back up.

 

So these levels really encourage you to move to different areas of the level and once you're sufficiently armed, come back later to finish up the rest of the demons. Finding the secrets also helps a lot. And of course, don't forget to save!

 

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/20/2022 at 11:10 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Or using the designated whine-time to actually open up Google and do some research. I can't imagine how many Plutonia map01 guides and playthroughs are on Youtube. Or maybe even actually asking for advice here instead of asking why people enjoy the things they do. Of course they had to use the Souls series as an example, which is required when discussing difficult games, even though it's a drop in the bucket compared to many popular NES and SNES games, which are a drop in the bucket compared to games that are actually fucking hard.

 

Of course, I look at OP's other thread, titled "UDB Is Not User Friendly" and I see that he got over thirty helpful replies and didn't bother to respond to even one person. So it appears to me that there is no actual discussion to be had here.

 

*Gasp* For shame! Looking up walkthroughs for Doom...

Share this post


Link to post

Why are people using Plutonia as an example of the hardest? I'm not saying it's a tea party by any means, but given a choice between Plutonia on UV or Serious Sam on the Normal difficulty, I will take Plutonia 666 times out of 666. Serious Sam even on normal difficulty for the "average FPS player" is absolutely brutal in just about every SS game.

Share this post


Link to post

For me, Doom is a puzzle game. There's you, an exit door, items/secrets (if you want to 100% those), and a bunch of bad guys, and you've gotta work out how to get to the end. The satisfaction is knowing that you worked out how to do it, and difficulty levels are just changing how precise you have to be when you solve it.

Share this post


Link to post

Time to bump the thread again, hope you don't mind. 

 

I managed to beat E4M2 (and 6, but that's insignificant) without saves, and man it's something I really don't want to do again.

 

Now I'm onto Doom 2. The first 7 maps were fairly straightforward, but then came map 08, Tricks and Traps. It's a shame too, Sandy Petersen made my favorite maps in Doom 1.

 

I hate that hard maps are the new norm. Do you guys know any wads that are considered good, but also fairly easy? I might try them after I beat Doom 2.

Share this post


Link to post

Revolution! (tvr.wad) always comes to the forefront of my mind as the quintessential representative of that definition. It's even easier than Doom 2, way easier in fact, but damn is it well crafted. Don't forget to check out the midi pack made specifically for it which is a separate release.

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, BomberBlur07 said:

Now I'm onto Doom 2. The first 7 maps were fairly straightforward, but then came map 08, Tricks and Traps. It's a shame too, Sandy Petersen made my favorite maps in Doom 1.

If you're implying that Tricks and Traps is too hard, I'm not sure what to tell you. It is gimmicky, but not any harder than the previous maps once you learn its tricks... and traps.

 

14 minutes ago, BomberBlur07 said:

I hate that hard maps are the new norm. Do you guys know any wads that are considered good, but also fairly easy? I might try them after I beat Doom 2.

What WADs have you tried that make you think hard is "the new norm"? The IWADs you're playing now are hardly "new." Anomaly Report is a recent wad that's on the easier side.

Share this post


Link to post

When it comes to exceptionally hard Doom maps there is no shame in playing on Hurt Me Plenty or the other lower difficulties. I am not a deity.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×