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Master O

GOG Has Released Doom 64

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Wow, that was unexpected!! They even fixed the gun sprites!!!!

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3 hours ago, Master O said:

Also, for anyone who may be wondering, GZDoom cannot support Doom 64 due to license issues:  https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/issues/1646

Why would anyone want to play it on GZDoom? Is this the same as the Nightdive Studios rerelease as on other platforms or is it different?

2 hours ago, OpenRift said:

They even fixed the gun sprites!!!!

What was wrong with them in the first place?

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That is a ninja Release.

Was looking here and there the Offers, but didn't see that.

 

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4 hours ago, Metal_Slayer said:

Why would anyone want to play it on GZDoom?

 

having support for it on GZDoom would open the door for more advanced mods that work off of doom 64, in a licit sense at least.

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5 hours ago, Metal_Slayer said:

What was wrong with them in the first place?

Some of the muzzle flashes and animation sprites were scaled incorrectly, but now they're fixed.

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8 hours ago, Master O said:

Also, for anyone who may be wondering, GZDoom cannot support Doom 64 due to license issues:  https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/issues/1646

I left a comment there because I'm pretty sure that's just excuses. a) You don't need source code for the re-release to port Doom 64 to <platform of your choice> and b) source code for Doom 64 EX is released under GPL which is about the standard for permissive licenses.

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I'm not sure why GZDoom even needs to be mentioned in this thread, it has nothing to do with Doom 64 being on GOG. There's Doom CE anyway, which is quite well made from what I've seen.

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55 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

I'm not sure why GZDoom even needs to be mentioned in this thread, it has nothing to do with Doom 64 being on GOG. There's Doom CE anyway, which is quite well made from what I've seen.

 

I only mentioned GZDoom in my original post because apparently Doom 64 did originally use the Doom Engine, per below:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_64

 

Since it did use the Doom Engine, that means it could technically be added if there's a permissive license and of course, if anyone wanted to actually add it to GZDoom.

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38 minutes ago, Master O said:

 

I only mentioned GZDoom in my original post because apparently Doom 64 did originally use the Doom Engine, per below:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_64

 

Since it did use the Doom Engine, that means it could technically be added if there's a permissive license and of course, if anyone wanted to actually add it to GZDoom.

The Doom Wiki has far more information than Wikipedia, Doom 64 is based on PSX Doom, which is based on Jaguar Doom, which is based on the original engine, even then, these are very far away from each other.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Master O said:

Since it did use the Doom Engine, that means it could technically be added if there's a permissive license and of course, if anyone wanted to actually add it to GZDoom.

That's not how licenses work. The Linux Doom release is the thing that's GPL, it doesn't magically grant retroactively licenses to anything else before or after.

 

However the engine isn't far remove from the original PC base, there's differences in logic but they aren't any more different than Strife and Hexen was. And this is important to note because GZDoom already has Doom64Ex it can use as a base, for the exact same justifications it already has for Strife which also didn't have a public source release. He can't claim Strife is allowed while Doom64 isn't when they have identical circumstances.

Edit: I tried explaining this in the github thread and they just simply locked it instead. Sorry GZDoom folks, I tried but it seems they just don't want Doom64 support.

Edited by Edward850

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There's a possibility of a third-party fork implementing things. On the face of it, it wouldn't be a titanic task - pretty much all of D64's features have equivalents in GZDoom - but far simpler features have been deemed unfeasible due to technical decisions made like ten years ago, so who knows? That'd be a more understandable explanation, though. "I'm not interested and don't want to" would also be understandable, such is the way of all hobby projects.

 

Hopefully someone figures out how to make it work - the DOOM CE mod is cool, but setting it up is a bit of extra friction, and I think custom mapsets have to be manually converted to it. It'd be lovely to give Doom 64 mapmakers more limelight, and to give gameplay modders an extra set of dark corridors to befowl, to say nothing of how nice it'd be to simply "complete the set" of support for official sprite-based Doom games.

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3 hours ago, Edward850 said:

 

And this is important to note because GZDoom already has Doom64Ex it can use as a base, for the exact same justifications it already has for Strife which also didn't have a public source release. He can't claim Strife is allowed while Doom64 isn't when they have identical circumstances.

Edit: I tried explaining this in the github thread and they just simply locked it instead. Sorry GZDoom folks, I tried but it seems they just don't want Doom64 support.

 

No, it's not quite the same. If anyone raised an issue with Strife I'd just go ahead and replace the relatively small amount of reverse engineered code still present (that'd be the (mostly) ZScript action functions) with variants directly derived from the GPL'd Strife VE code.

But to my knowledge the Doom64 EX code was never officially sanctioned by id or Zenimax in any way. If you can reassure me that legally using it would be fine, things would look a lot different, if we disregard the lack of manpower to implement all the needed stuff for the time being.

 

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Yeah I noticed. Still don't care since the free modded version that existed for years prior is still a far superior version to play. So even at a ridiculously low $1.25 it's not worth the price.

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8 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

No, it's not quite the same. If anyone raised an issue with Strife I'd just go ahead and replace the relatively small amount of reverse engineered code still present (that'd be the (mostly) ZScript action functions) with variants directly derived from the GPL'd Strife VE code.

But to my knowledge the Doom64 EX code was never officially sanctioned by id or Zenimax in any way. If you can reassure me that legally using it would be fine, things would look a lot different, if we disregard the lack of manpower to implement all the needed stuff for the time being.

 

I know this is not a legal argument, but from a common sense standpoint, is Microsoft / Bethesda / Zenimax really going to waste their time and money potentially suing to keep Doom64 EX's code out of GZDoom?  This game is over 25 years old and also, all of those companies most likely already know about the source code being reverse engineered.  If they had really cared enough, they'd have done something about it legally by now.

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1 hour ago, Master O said:

and also, all of those companies most likely already know about the source code being reverse engineered.

Given that they contracted the people who did it to make two games for them, probably!

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12 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

But to my knowledge the Doom64 EX code was never officially sanctioned by id or Zenimax in any way. If you can reassure me that legally using it would be fine, things would look a lot different, if we disregard the lack of manpower to implement all the needed stuff for the time being.

 

As far as I know, it should not matter if the Doom64 EX code isn't officially sancitioned by id or Zenimax. Nintendo also definitely doesn't sanction Super Mario 64 decompilation project (https://github.com/n64decomp/sm64) but they can do nothing because there are zero actual original Nintendo assets distributed and zero actual Nintendo code used. And that Mario 64 decompilation project isn't even GPL. Doom64 EX code shouldn't be a problem as it uses GPL license and is basically just recreation of Doom 64 code and doesn't actually use any code from Doom 64. So what is the actual legal problem you see here?

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Posted (edited)

I am not allowed to say very much about details of the development process due to NDAs, but one thing I think I can say without any trouble is that we, Nightdive, did pitch the project originally as a "new version" of Doom64EX, and that phrasing is in the original draft contract that was sent over describing the deliverables. So yeah they know about it. I believe they consider it to be covered under their umbrella of "fan works" / "fan art", but that's not legal advice.

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On 6/25/2022 at 6:00 AM, Quasar said:

but that's not legal advice.

 

 

... and therefore unfortunately it doesn't really help.

It doesn't really matter what I think about the legal implications - the reality here is that GZDoom gets used by several commercial projects, which simply cannot afford to be at the whim of some potential rogue lawyer using this as a weapon. Unlikely as it may be, it cannot be ruled out completely.

 

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Glad to see another way for people to buy and play Doom 64.  I had absolutely no need to buy the game on GOG but I did it anyway!  It'll come in handy to have a DRM-free version that I can stick on any old random laptop I come across. :) 

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On 6/24/2022 at 8:18 AM, Edward850 said:

However the engine isn't far remove from the original PC base

I don't think it would be either

It's definitely an altered engine but not to the point of making it an entirely brand new one imo

Since Doom 64 acts similarly to the OGs anyways

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