Was there a Quake 1 killer?

[Rudolph]

3 hours ago, Azuris said:

Ego Shooters

Is that really how you refer to first-person shooters in Germany? 

[Sena]

Ego shooters sounds like a perfectly natural progression from id shooters.

[Azuris]

16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Is that really how you refer to first-person shooters in Germany? 

 

Aye, as it is the Perspective from you, Ego in Latin :>

 

From above it is Bird Perspective.

 

[TasAcri]

No, i don't think there ever was a Quake 1 killer.

 

You see, Quake was the last major/successful FPS game with the classic labyrinthine map design where you have to "solve" the maps. Doom 64 being the last one but that game got almost completely ignored back then, plus it was based on the DOOM engine. Quake 1 is the most advanced game with such design (other than some modern indies).

 

After Quake 1 we got Quake 2 and Unreal, both ditching this kind of map design, for a more linear, continuous structure where each area is connected and the progress "makes sense" story wise or something. Half-Life, of course, perfected that kind of design later on. Which means it plays nothing like Quake 1. So, none of these games count as "Quake 1 killers" since they don't do the same things but better.

 

In console space you had Turok, which was closer to Quake 1 than 2 but instead of many small intricate maps, it went with big, outdoor, more empty maps. It was great but not a Quake killer. Goldeneye also had "maps" and these maps were mostly non-linear but the gameplay was different with all the missions, gadgets, etc. So again, great game, it even changed FPS for consoles completely. But still, not a Quake killer because of how different it is.

 

Games like Quake, Duke Nukem and Doom pretty much stopped appearing. Quake 1 is still the peak of this kind of design. FPS after that became more linear, nobody cared about surreal, complex, nonsensical maps where you hunt keys and secrets anymore. Which is unfortunate. Nowadays there are a bunch of indie games that follow this design, like i mentioned, with great results (Amid Evil is great) but again, these are not big or successful enough, or as good/better to count as "Quake 1 killers".

[Jello]

9 hours ago, TasAcri said:

No, i don't think there ever was a Quake 1 killer.

 

You see, Quake was the last major/successful FPS game with the classic labyrinthine map design where you have to "solve" the maps. Doom 64 being the last one but that game got almost completely ignored back then, plus it was based on the DOOM engine. Quake 1 is the most advanced game with such design (other than some modern indies).

 

After Quake 1 we got Quake 2 and Unreal, both ditching this kind of map design, for a more linear, continuous structure where each area is connected and the progress "makes sense" story wise or something. Half-Life, of course, perfected that kind of design later on. Which means it plays nothing like Quake 1. So, none of these games count as "Quake 1 killers" since they don't do the same things but better.

 

In console space you had Turok, which was closer to Quake 1 than 2 but instead of many small intricate maps, it went with big, outdoor, more empty maps. It was great but not a Quake killer. Goldeneye also had "maps" and these maps were mostly non-linear but the gameplay was different with all the missions, gadgets, etc. So again, great game, it even changed FPS for consoles completely. But still, not a Quake killer because of how different it is.

 

Games like Quake, Duke Nukem and Doom pretty much stopped appearing. Quake 1 is still the peak of this kind of design. FPS after that became more linear, nobody cared about surreal, complex, nonsensical maps where you hunt keys and secrets anymore. Which is unfortunate. Nowadays there are a bunch of indie games that follow this design, like i mentioned, with great results (Amid Evil is great) but again, these are not big or successful enough, or as good/better to count as "Quake 1 killers".

I really agree with your opinion on Quake, it really was the last shooter of it's genre. I realize there were people that still loved Doom when it came out, and people who thought Duke Nukem 3D was better because it had more realistic environments, and the protagonist talked, and it was more interactive. And I can see why people would've preferred them. But Quake is the most atmospheric FPS game that I've ever played, and I absolutely love the abstract nature of it's level design.

 

Everything in Quake, aside from the slipgate levels, is so wonderfully abstract and foreboding. The music is almost non-existent, the levels are a weird combination of medieval design, the enemies are almost silent, but the groan of a Scrag, the thump of a Fiend, the unearthly moan of a Vore, the roar of the Shambler all create this "Oh shit, I shouldn't be here" atmopshere. Everything about Quake makes you feel like you shouldn't be there, this universe shouldn't exist. It's an amalgamation of the 600's and the 2100's. The level design and the lore seem like a combination of Poe, Geiger, Lovecraft, Escher, and Dali. It's an absolutely beautiful game, and I think it's the pinnacle of first person shooters.

 

It has problems, yes. I could do without Spawns. But it's absolutely beautiful despite them. I've never seen a game look quite as beautiful as Quake, and the fact that it's still getting amazing releases that are jaw-droppingly gorgeous is a testament to it's overall art design.

[Rudolph]

@Jello How do you feel about the expansion packs?

[Jello]

On 7/5/2022 at 5:07 PM, Rudolph said:

@Jello How do you feel about the expansion packs?

They seemed overkill, and trying to outdo the original game while not expanding upon what made it terrifying in the first place.

 

Scourge of Armagon is the most blatant offender of the two mission packs. They made most of the missions taking place in ikbase, and in the medieval settings the combat was more fast paced and less atmospheric. Having a bionic as the end-boss seemed to say that this wasn't some Eldritch horror coming from eons past, it was a futuristic terror that we had yet to discover. Which ties nicely in with Quake 2, but it never quite felt like Quake.

 

Dissolution of Eternity was much better, and I'll always have a soft spot for Rogue because of it, and the horribly underrated Alice. They seemed to understand the level design of Quake better, but it falls flat. They went bigger, and I don't think it was better. It feels like they tried to expand these abstract worlds into a continuous whole, and it fell apart. There were textures extended beyond where they should be, enemies added that just added to clutter. The dragon boss was really amazing when it came out, but the whole of the episode felt like putting a hat on top of a hat.

 

Don't get me wrong, I loved Scourge of Armagon and Dissolution of Eternity when they came out. I was so happy to see those in Sam's Club when they were released, and I played them to death. But going back to them, I would rather just play the original Quake. Or any number of Quake maps released since them, because the arsenal, enemies, and tone that exist in Quake already make Quake fun. The expansion packs kind of ruined it; they kept going for more and more. And they didn't keep the same feeling of being stuck between worlds. But even a few years after their release, when Worldcraft came out, people were releasing better maps, although none of them quite match the original levels.

 

So I guess I'm kind of a Quake purist. The levels have a certain level of abstract design that I wouldn't change for the world. It's not pretty, and it might not play that well, and some of them were just thrown together, but they do work in this weird atmospheric way. They feel like walking through a nightmare; the shapes and walls look recognizable, and everything makes sense, and then you're thrown into a dark hole where everything is wrong, the walls don't make sense, the only way up is a beam, and there's a three legged monster throwing missiles at you.

 

So in summary: There's something artistic about the original Quake that is amazing, and I don't know if it will be replicated.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Jello : embarrassing spelling mistake

[Kyle07]

I'm currently playing through "Dissolution of Eternity" in the Quake Remaster for the very first time. I like the addons/mission packs. I think I like "Scourge of Armagon" a little bit more because of the new weapons and music and the designed multiplayer map "HIPDM1: The Edge of Oblivion". This map makes so much fun, I like it and I saw even a remake of it on the Steam Workshop for Serious Sam 3.

 

I read somewhere (maybe on Doomworld or Steam), that "Scourge of Armagon" should appeal more to Doom players due to its level design? I don't know why, maybe only because of the military base?

 

I like in general the new content the mission packs offer, like new weapons, new music, new textures, new feeling. Yes, it's different than the base game. But this makes the base game then more unique and returning to it makes more fun. So thats why I like the "new approaches" of the mission packs.

[Daytime Waitress]

 

On 7/12/2022 at 4:21 PM, Jello said:

So I guess I'm kind of a Quake purist. The levels have a certain level of abstract design that I wouldn't change for the world. It's not pretty, and it might not play that well, and some of them were just thrown together, but they do work in this weird atmospheric way. They feel like walking through a nightmare; the shapes and walls look recognizable, and everything makes sense, and then you're thrown into a dark hole where everything is wrong, the walls don't make sense, the only way up is a beam, and there's a three legged monster missiles at you.

 

I only played the expansions when the remaster came around, and while at the time I enjoyed them, I can definitely feel this. Some architecture in the original game at best made no logical sense and at worst felt like an excuse to have a firefight, but in conjunction with the game's unique atmosphere, was completely believable and internally consistent.

 

The following clip (to the end of the level) isn't even the greatest example, but the whole scenario is totally burned into my brain. Why do I have to descend these stairs and get mauled by everything? Equal parts nightmare logic and videogame logic.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I like that the video is by @Biodegradable's Spanish cousin, too.

 

On 7/12/2022 at 4:21 PM, Jello said:

They went bigger, and I don't think it was better. It feels like they tried to expand these abstract worlds into a continuous whole, and it fell apart.

 

To be fair, I think the only other game that did this concept as well as Quake was the Timesplitter's series, and it leaned a lot on its breakneck pace: "Oh, you just got used to being in the future with lasers? Fuck you, back to the Cold War you go! Just kidding, now you're a cowboy!"

Edited July 13, 2022 by Daytime Waitress : I'm a dumb dumb

[BGreener]

6 hours ago, Jello said:

Having a bionic as the end-boss seemed to say that this wasn't some Eldritch horror coming from eons past, it was a futuristic terror that we had yet to discover. Which ties nicely in with Quake 2, but it never quite felt like Quake.

It definitely doesn’t feel “Quake”, and it also didn’t feel like a good starting point for “Quake” 2. This might be because I played Scourge after the fact, but I liked that initial element of the unknown that played into the Strogg’s backstory.
 

It’s what I liked so much about the Borg, trying to fathom the origins that resulted in this cold (and for Q2, cruel and brutal) and formidable cyborg race.

 

Great rest of your post, by the way.

[Rudolph]

4 hours ago, Daytime Waitress said:

I like that the video is by @Biodegradable's Spanish cousin, too.

I do not see any link to the video on my end.

 

27 minutes ago, BGrieber said:

It’s what I liked so much about the Borg, trying to fathom the origins that resulted in this cold (and for Q2, cruel and brutal) and formidable cyborg race.

Yeah, and unlike Star Trek, there is no metaphor or commentary to be made, so the Strogg can get away with being these simplistic villains.

 

And I do not mean simplistic as a negative: I think they work well as these purely evil villains who do evil things because they can.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Rudolph

[Daytime Waitress]

18 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I do not see any link to the video on my end.

 

That's because I'm a moron.

 

Should be fixed now.

[ReaperAA]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:05 PM, Kyle07 said:

I read somewhere (maybe on Doomworld or Steam), that "Scourge of Armagon" should appeal more to Doom players due to its level design? I don't know why, maybe only because of the military base?

 

Well I can't say about Doom players in general, but this definitely somewhat applies for me. I vastly prefer Scourge of Armagon over Dissolution of Eternity and probably a bit over the base game too. I wish vanilla Quake had a proper techbase episode. I also generally prefer the medieval maps of SoA over base game and DoE due to the more fast paced combat of SoA in general.

 

With that said though, there are plenty of great and awesome Quake mappacks out there that are vastly ahead of the original game and expansion pack and I would definitely recommend Quake fans to check out those.

[Master O]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:43 PM, Rudolph said:

It is my understanding that Duke Nukem 3D, although it was released around the same time as Quake 1, was considered to be a "Doom killer", since it blew Doom out of the water technologically speaking and also had a cultural impact about as significant as the latter.

 

However, was there ever a Quake 1 killer - other than Quake II? 

 

 

[heliumlamb]

czg kills it every time

[Tetzlaff]

On 7/2/2022 at 2:17 PM, ReaperAA said:

 

Unreal Tournament?!! Definitely warranted existing and far more than just "Doom but 3D and spazzy". It's the first fps to introduce Domination and Assault gamemodes. And Domination is something that is present even in many modern games such the Battlefield series. 

Most game mode ideas from Unreal Tournament where actually pioneered earlier in Quake mods. If I remember it correct, Domination was based on a King of the Hill mod for Quake.

 

[Marisa the Magician]

On 7/2/2022 at 12:41 AM, cybdmn said:

 

You should hope that the Unreal Tournament fans don't read that comment.

Oh, I read that comment alright. :V

[ZombiemanMastermind]

half-life

[Barry Burton]

Remember Killzone? The Halo killer? Lol so much for that.

[Tetzlaff]

Killzone is a very successful series in it's own right?

 

Back on topic - like others already mentioned, Unreal was supposed to be the Quake killer. They wanted to be like Quake, but prettier, with more creative weapons, better AI, larger levels and so on.

 

Look at that early Unreal screenshot, it looked just as much like a Quake clone as Chasm:

 

 

Unreal didn't kill Quake though, but it created a beneficial competition between the Quake and Unreal franchises. Unreal Tournament and Quake III: Arena were both released in 1999 and started a golden age of online arena shooters. Both franchises took hints from each other: Quake 3: Team Arena took hints from UT, Unreal Tournament 2003 in turn took hints from Q3A and so on.

[Graf Zahl]

8 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

 Unreal Tournament and Quake III: Arena were both released in 1999 and started a golden age of online arena shooters. Both franchises took hints from each other: Quake 3: Team Arena took hints from UT, Unreal Tournament 2003 in turn took hints from Q3A and so on.

 

Most importantly, both franchises exemplified that it isn't really necessary to design gameplay in order to sell a game.

[Tetzlaff]

2 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Most importantly, both franchises exemplified that it isn't really necessary to design gameplay in order to sell a game.

 

Because they both didn't reinvent the wheel? But refining and gradually evolving is a valid way of designing gameplay as well, or not?

[ReaperAA]

16 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Most importantly, both franchises exemplified that it isn't really necessary to design *singleplayer campaign* in order to sell a game.

 

Fixed it for ya. They both have solid gameplay, just that the gameplay they offer is purely MP focused to a point where even the SP is also just botmatches against AI.

[Rudolph]

I admit, I only bothered with Unreal Tournament 2004 because it was required to play the original Alien Swarm.

 

Quake III was not so lucky and as such I have never bought it. Which is a shame, as its opening cutscene - where Sarge fights off a wave of what looks like Strogg troopers - is really cool.

[Redneckerz]

Being a fan of physical releases of older games, i have all the UT's and Quake games sans Champions on disc, including the rare Quake 2 port to Xbox 360 (1080p60!) and Quake 2 on PSX.

 

My heart is made of Unreal - I still play UT regularly, and 2004's vehicles are dear to me. But Quake 3 is pretty special too, which, dare i say, has the better maps.

 

The only Quake 1 killer in timeframe was Chasm (Which was a poor man's Quake being able to run on 486-level machines) and Duke Nukem 3D. Which isn't so much a killer other than that it was a constant debate - Duke 3D vs Quake, Quake vs Duke 3D, Your Master's Rasters vs Starfields, and so on..

[StodgyAyatollah]

Even id themselves failed to kill Quake with their desire to make something completely different despite Quake being the natural progression into true 3D for them. Ultimately though it was just the end of an era. The tech for new experiences was developed so experimentation to push things in new directions was inevitable. The genre generally ended up forking into both competitive and linear story focused directions. It has forked a bit more since but we haven't had such a significant jump in tech to allow the same level of experimentation which is why things have sort of stagnated in the industry and is likely part of the reason we're seeing some old design philosophies being embraced once again.