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Rudolph

Why was Shadow Warrior not Duke Nukem Forever?

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While browsing Shadow Warrior 1997's Wikipedia page, I noticed the following quote from George Broussard:

 

We want Shadow Warrior to surpass Duke Nukem 3D in features and gameplay and that's a TALL order.

 

I have yet to track down its source, as Wikipedia only refers me to 3D Realms' entry on the game, but anyway. Assuming George Broussard really said that, then it makes me wonder: if Duke Nukem Forever was announced shortly after Duke Nukem 3D - if I am not mistaken, at the end of The Birth episode, released with the Atomic Edition in 1996 - and was meant to surpass Duke Nukem 3D, then why did 3D Realms just not make Duke Nukem Forever instead of Shadow Warrior?

 

Does anyone know? Did any of 3D Realms developers ever explain why they chose to make Shadow Warrior first?

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Shadow Warrior was already started back in 1994, long before Duke 3D was finished and released. Also, based on level design credits, different people worked on each game, Allen Blum and Richard Gray for DN3D, Keith Schuler and Stephen Cole for SW (+ couple levels by others).

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Posted (edited)

@D4NUK1 Sure, but you would think it would have easy to ride on Duke Nukem 3D's popularity by releasing a sequel running on the Build engine.

 

14 minutes ago, Michael Jensen said:

Shadow Warrior was already started back in 1994, long before Duke 3D was finished and released. Also, based on level design credits, different people worked on each game, Allen Blum and Richard Gray for DN3D, Keith Schuler and Stephen Cole for SW (+ couple levels by others).

Oh, I did not know that!

 

Quite fascinating to see how the game went from being a Doom clone to a Duke Nukem 3D clone!

Edited by Rudolph

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Doom should have been Return of Wolfenstein, and Quake should have been Return of the Son of Wolfenstein

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Doom should have been Return of Wolfenstein

I know you are joking, but I can see Doom working as a direct Wolfenstein 3D sequel.

 

Just replace zombies and demons with Nazis and zombies!

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4 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Doom should have been Return of Wolfenstein, and Quake should have been Return of the Son of Wolfenstein

I wonder how Wolfenstein: The New Order turns out in that timeline...

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Yeah but ROTT should have been the Real WOLF3D so DOOM should be Return to The Rise of The Triad With Demons and Zombies or just ROTTWDAZ.

 

Pretty bad for iD software 

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5 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I know you are joking, but I can see Doom working as a direct Wolfenstein 3D sequel. Just replace zombies and demons with Nazis and zombies!

Am I joking? Well, maybe a little - but I absolutely loved Wolfenstein 3D and frankly I think I would have been content in this alternate universe. Some of the Doom assets, like the starter pistol, the chaingun - and hell, probably the hole HUD - would have worked decently well with little to no alteration for a Wolf sequel, not to mention the general engine and gameplay feel. As a kid the similarities in presentation had always lead me to think of Doom as the "sequel" to Wolf, even though it really isn't.

 

If anything it would have probably made me more interested in the Id Tech 2 (Quake) era, which never really managed to grip me away from the Id Tech 1 (and Build) games.. If that was a Wolf sequel instead, I'd have probably ended up a big fan of this era from id.

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that's all just George Broussard being the well-meaning liar he is. he and 3D Realms knew they could make more money with the build engine, so they just made Shadow Warrior to cash in somewhat.

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26 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Oh, I did not know that!

 

Quite fascinating to see how the game went from being a Doom clone to a Duke Nukem 3D clone!

Download the free version of Shadow Warrior on Steam, it has a huge pile of prototypes included that track the game's half-decade or so of development hell in intimate detail.

 

It went through a few phases.

 

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13 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

frankly I think I would have been content in this alternate universe. Some of the Doom assets, like the starter pistol, the chaingun - and hell, probably the hole HUD - would have worked decently well with little to no alteration for a Wolf sequel, not to mention the general engine and gameplay feel.

With a sprite set update for enemies probably yeah

We already have a lot of Doom mods that are Wolf 3D based but on Id Tech 1

 

However I don't really like Wolfenstein 3D's simplicity

Sure it was a huge deal back in 92 but it has aged horribly imo (the same cannot be said for Doom 1-64)

 

19 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Nazis and zombies!

I feel like mutants were a better idea on Wolf 3D

i'm not sure how I feel about zombies on the later Wolfenstein games (including The Old Blood)

I feel like mutants would sound better

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19 minutes ago, map11has2names said:

that's all just George Broussard being the well-meaning liar he is. he and 3D Realms knew they could make more money with the build engine, so they just made Shadow Warrior to cash in somewhat.

Well, in his defense, he was not exactly lying there: the game did try to surpass Duke Nukem 3D in terms of features and gameplay, such as driveable vehicles and weapons with alternate firing modes.

 

If 3D Realms wanted to, they could have easily converted it into a Duke Nukem game.

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1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

While browsing Shadow Warrior 1997's Wikipedia page, I noticed the following quote from George Broussard:

 

We want Shadow Warrior to surpass Duke Nukem 3D in features and gameplay and that's a TALL order.

 

 

That is what a probably less-savory character would call "truthful hyperbole."

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50 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

If 3D Realms wanted to, they could have easily converted it into a Duke Nukem game.

They could, but then they would be battling against their own game considering Shadow Warrior was earlier in development than Duke yet released later.

 

Broussard's statement is a textbook definition of PR fluff - You can read everything into it, if you will..

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Masker said:

I wonder how Wolfenstein: The New Order turns out in that timeline...

 

Return of Wolfenstein Eternal Forever Revengeance.

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1 hour ago, Mr Masker said:

I wonder how Wolfenstein: The New Order turns out in that timeline...

Probably the same, Doom being a Wolfenstein 2 would probably explore pre-deathshead Nazis which would not be related to RtCW and later games' story

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mr Masker said:

I wonder how Wolfenstein: The New Order turns out in that timeline...

Maybe it would have been a "return to form" after the divisive Wolfenstein 3 (i.e. Return to Castle Wolfenstein), which would have been a slower-paced, more realistic reboot.

 

Then, The New Colossus would have revealed that BJ has somehow travelled to a parallel universe where the Nazis have won.

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3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

While browsing Shadow Warrior 1997's Wikipedia page, I noticed the following quote from George Broussard:

 

We want Shadow Warrior to surpass Duke Nukem 3D in features and gameplay and that's a TALL order.

 

I have yet to track down its source, as Wikipedia only refers me to 3D Realms' entry on the game, but anyway. Assuming George Broussard really said that, then it makes me wonder: if Duke Nukem Forever was announced shortly after Duke Nukem 3D - if I am not mistaken, at the end of The Birth episode, released with the Atomic Edition in 1996 - and was meant to surpass Duke Nukem 3D, then why did 3D Realms just not make Duke Nukem Forever instead of Shadow Warrior?

 

Does anyone know? Did any of 3D Realms developers ever explain why they chose to make Shadow Warrior first?

Shadow Warrior was about pushing the Build Engine to its limits, DNF was about moving to the next generation.

 

If I may make a rough comparison:

           Duke 3D :: Doom

Shadow Warrior :: Hexen

                 DNF :: Doom 3

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7 hours ago, map11has2names said:

that's all just George Broussard being the well-meaning liar he is.

 

There's nothing well-meaning about GeorgieB whatsoever. The man is pathological. From stealing credit on Shop-N-Bag from Levelord to letting DNF's scope get wildly out of hand because of his need to lift ideas from the popular game du jour, the main reason 3D Realms went down the tubes is because of George Broussard. (And then he lies out his ass about the DNF 2001 leak and tried to blame Scott Miller for 3DR losing the Duke IP.)

 

I'm not keen on dev worship in general but Broussard is a thoroughly useless, toxic human being.

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2 hours ago, june gloom said:

I'm not keen on dev worship in general but Broussard is a thoroughly useless, toxic human being.

Then, I guess it is a good thing that he has all but left the (already thoroughly toxic) video game industry at this point.

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Posted (edited)

Was Broussard's statement made before or after Duke Nukem 4Ever switched from a side-scroller platformer to the first-person sequel to DN3D?

 

Anyways, a while ago I dug up a few interviews with GB via the Wayback Machine. The quote in question comes from the GameCenter.com piece:

Quote

GAMECENTER: I know it will be "ready when it's ready," but there are some rumors going around. Is the shareware version ready and waiting for the Quake excitement to abate before coming out? Hey, that's what I heard...

 

G. B.: No. Quake's release has NOTHING to do with it. The game just isn't done yet. We want Shadow Warrior to surpass Duke Nukem 3D in features and gameplay and that's a TALL order. So we are still working on the game. We do expect a release around the first of 1997. We are trying for a shareware release prior to Christmas '96, but I doubt that will happen, and we won't rush the game just for a deadline. In the end, we intend on delivering more of everything people have come to expect in 3D action games.

I'm unable to establish the exact date when this feature was published, but it looks like the interview was made before Christmas '96, as suggested by Broussard's reply.

 

Another clue is the mention of Quake. I believe that the first shareware release came out sometime in end-June '96, so the interview must have been made sometime in the third or early fourth quarter that year.

 

Here are three other interviews with him that I found, in case someone is interested:

Scott and George "Duke" it Out!

An exclusive Interview with George Broussard

Shadow Warrior Guided Tour

 

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Posted (edited)

@MrFlibble Sweet! Thank you for the source.

 

I did not know Duke Nukem Forever was initially going to be a side-scroller! It does not even seem to be mentioned in the Wikipedia page about the development of Duke Nukem Forever. It does say that the game as a first-person shooter was originally to use the Quake II engine and that the team began developing Duke Nukem Forever on the Quake 1 engine, which is an interesting parallel with Daïkatana.

 

Since there was a side-scrolling Duke Nukem game that came out in 2002, I guess we can say that we got the "real" Duke Nukem Forever after all! :P

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Information on the side-scroller DNF is preciously scant, but it was supposed to run on the same engine that was later used for Alien Rampage, so you can "kind of" get the idea of how it would play.

 

As for the DNF the 3D shooter versus Shadow Warrior, I suppose you know that there were plans for an enhanced Build engine Duke game (it is mentioned by Scott Miller in this interview among other things -- "There will be a sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. We are deciding now what technology we will use. It is likely we will do one more 25-30 level game with an improved Build engine. Possibly with polygon characters, but we are still in the fact finding stages"), and some work towards that was being made, like voxels for item pickups and even enemies (there are unused voxel enemies in Shadow Warrior too BTW, at least in one of the betas), but these were ultimately scrapped, I suppose not in the least because with the arrival of Quake, 2.5D technology became hopelessly outdated and would no longer appear top-notch and "cool", even though both SW and Blood are excellent late 2.5D era titles.

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Ah! Well, there is the answer to my original question. Thank you!

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