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The Doommer

Do people actually hate the DLCs?

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1 hour ago, hybridial said:

I get other people don't care for it but what else can id do but look at the reactions and make their choice.

 

That's why I'm interested to see how they handle their next shooter, be it a new Doom or Quake or otherwise. Maybe they've learned a thing or two after Eternal's development and will have a better idea how to make their mechanics more approachable and fun without hurting the ceiling.

 

Funnily enough, I didn't make it far into 2016 the first time through. After loving Eternal I went back to revisit 2016...and honestly? I think that first quarter of it is the closest to the modern "Doom" I've been wanting. Love that early chunk of level exploration, there was even a moment I had a roaming hell knight running through the foundry.

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2016 and DE play nothing like Classic Doom but at 2016 at least tried to ape it. 

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8 hours ago, Quasar said:

Earlier you said it was designed for Doom fans. If somebody can't levy criticism against it because of its higher skill cap while being a Doom fan, who bought it because it said "Doom" on it, that seems like a contradiction to me. If you're trying to say you can't be a Doom fan without liking Eternal, that's just gatekeeping. I know so many Doom fans who like it a lot less than I do and won't ever play it again, while I have over 200 hours in it but feel that qualifies me to talk about its weaknesses, not just heap praise on it unconditionally.

 

I play on ITYTD normally just because it's the most enjoyable to me. I have finished HMP without much problems, but UV was not even doable for me without farming extra lives through replays and that point it seemed like "what's the point?". I tried Nightmare for the hell of it because I do like to challenge myself, up to a point. I got to Cultist Base without dying once, and then burned 20 lives in a row on a single encounter where I just kept getting sniped out of the air by imps from all the way across the map. No amount of "learning experiences" are going to make me better at this game at this point, so that's my POV on it. It requires teenager reflexes to become that proficient and I'm 42, not 14. However at least id Software sees fit to provide these skill levels, which is what sets them apart from the competition. Otherwise I wouldn't have the overall positive opinion I do have of the game.

 

I'm not sure why it bothers you that much if somebody has a negative opinion of it, though. It surely can't detract from your own enjoyment; it seems like there's this false idea that everybody has to agree something is good or else it's ruined for everybody.

ok, sincere apologies from me. now it makes sense: i have to remember that i'm not discussing this with people around my age. i'm way younger than you, i understand now. i absolutely adore this game, and want as many people to enjoy for what it is as possible. it's a masterfully crafted, perfectly polished experience, and i'd hate for someone to dislike it.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, hybridial said:

I couldn't disagree with a statement more, in fact I'll go one further. Doom Eternal is the game Doom 2016 is a half finished prototype for. Doom 2016 is the one on reflection I don't really like. I found it shockingly dull, it took me a calendar year to even finish the thing. And I really was left wondering why I felt this way because up front it seems like an amazing modern interpretation of Doom. But it's not. I think Doom 2016 is a massive departure from classic Doom, but one with only half realised ideas for new mechanics, and I think more egregiously, an extremely wishy washy approach to level design, where sometimes things were more open but it felt a bit pointless, most of the time it was linear.

 

I have to agree with this. I don't think 2016 is a bad game at all, but it's nothing like the classic games. The game doesn't have the chops to justify its' length - Weapons are largely too similar in application which makes switching between them feel not so much a meaningful decision so much as wanting to see a different particle effect appear as the monster turns into pink mist. Enemies are not dangerous enough, so target prioritization and diverse movement patterns are largely irrelevant. Levels are not holistic as in the old games and instead are partitioned into set piece battles where you're always supplied with whatever you need.

 

If I had to describe 2016, it would be not as a return to form but a simulacrum of oldschool FPS games, filtered through two decades of pop culture and internet memes. All noise and violence but not much in the way of real substance. Strip away the "RIP AND TEAR BROOTAL" window dressing and as I have said on other occasions I think the game would have a lot more in common with linear mid 2000s shooters like Half Life 2 or RTCW than the games it wishes to take after. Eternal is a much more fleshed out game with incredibly fun gameplay mechanics and I'd hate to see it return to the mundanity of its' predecessor which from a gameplay standpoint is far simpler and more shallow than classic Doom ever was.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

I have to agree with this. I don't think 2016 is a bad game at all, but it's nothing like the classic games. The game doesn't have the chops to justify its' length - Weapons are largely too similar in application which makes switching between them feel not so much a meaningful decision so much as wanting to see a different particle effect appear as the monster turns into pink mist. Enemies are not dangerous enough, so target prioritization and diverse movement patterns are largely irrelevant. Levels are not holistic as in the old games and instead are partitioned into set piece battles where you're always supplied with whatever you need.

 

If I had to describe 2016, it would be not as a return to form but a simulacrum of oldschool FPS games, filtered through two decades of pop culture and internet memes. All noise and violence but not much in the way of real substance. Strip away the "RIP AND TEAR BROOTAL" window dressing and as I have said on other occasions I think the game would have a lot more in common with linear mid 2000s shooters like Half Life 2 or RTCW than the games it wishes to take after. Eternal is a much more fleshed out game with incredibly fun gameplay mechanics and I'd hate to see it return to the mundanity of its' predecessor which from a gameplay standpoint is far simpler and more shallow than classic Doom ever was.

RTCW is linear? Really? I remember it being somewhat labyrinthine at times. I agree definitely with your assessment though. For a while, I kinda hated 2016 because it wasn't really a true recreation of the original games in spirit (I got biased by some pretty out there youtube video at the time, plus playing on nightmare is just irritating, but then it always was). Nowadays I enjoy it going back playing on UV. It has a much lower skill ceiling, but still a lot of fun to play through. I just view it as a prototype for Eternal nowadays.

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On 8/2/2022 at 8:22 AM, map11has2names said:

Doom Eternal was designed for people who wanted an evolution of 2016. oh, and the "actual Dooms fans" remark is horse shit. i swear, people on Doomworld have this burning hatred of this game, for whatever reason. don't care for it? 

I think the majority here (including me) loves Doom Eternal and like the DLCs (except me).

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I liked TAG1 a lot, hated TAG2 though and never bothered to replay it, it's been a while since I played either so I my opinions could've changed but I doubt it will when I replay them

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Seems like the situation is people want to hate the DLCs, more than it being that there's anything really wrong with them. People also like to say that Doom 1 and 2 are simply bad games. If 2016 and Eternal were not massive successes, it'd feel tough being a Doom fan sometimes.

 

On 8/2/2022 at 8:12 PM, xdarkmasterx said:

If I had to describe 2016, it would be not as a return to form but a simulacrum of oldschool FPS games, filtered through two decades of pop culture and internet memes. All noise and violence but not much in the way of real substance. Strip away the "RIP AND TEAR BROOTAL" window dressing and as I have said on other occasions I think the game would have a lot more in common with linear mid 2000s shooters like Half Life 2 or RTCW than the games it wishes to take after. Eternal is a much more fleshed out game with incredibly fun gameplay mechanics and I'd hate to see it return to the mundanity of its' predecessor which from a gameplay standpoint is far simpler and more shallow than classic Doom ever was.

2016 and Eternal are far more alike than they are different. They don't play like Doom 1 and 2, nor should they. Their relationship to old Doom was always about the setting, not the gameplay. It's the same idea as Doom 3, just from a different angle. The only games 2016 and Eternal really play like are things like Unreal 1 and Metroid Prime, they have nothing to do with Half-Life 2 or RtCW or whatever. Even HL2 and RtCW have nothing to do with each other, and it's concerning you lump them together like that.

 

You really should go back and play old Doom. It's not very far removed from Wolfenstein 3D, its immediate predecessor. Old Doom doesn't even have real bosses, and the inability to shoot in any direction or even jump greatly limits what you are ever allowed to do with game design. I'm not really knocking old Doom here, I understand why it is the way it is, I grew up with it, and I'm even playing it right now. However, to say that 2016 is "far simpler and more shallow" is just objectively wrong from every angle.

 

That aside, some of all this is buried in how people like to draw a solid line between Doom and Quake, and that practice should stop. Quake is effectively the followup to Doom, much like how Doom is effectively the followup to Wolfenstein 3D. People understood that Quake II was a gameplay sequel to Quake even if the setting was completely different, but you don't need a specific name to make this clear. Likewise, 2016 and Eternal are the followups to what id Software had done up to that point, and also reflect a kind of reboot for the entire company. Most developers work this way, especially developers that are known for making a particular kind of game.

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4 hours ago, kexen said:

You really should go back and play old Doom. It's not very far removed from Wolfenstein 3D, its immediate predecessor. Old Doom doesn't even have real bosses, and the inability to shoot in any direction or even jump greatly limits what you are ever allowed to do with game design. I'm not really knocking old Doom here, I understand why it is the way it is, I grew up with it, and I'm even playing it right now. However, to say that 2016 is "far simpler and more shallow" is just objectively wrong from every angle.

 

When I said shallow, I didn't mean the number of mechanics but the process of gameplay itself. I found 2016's combat to ask very little of the player - ammo management is simple, weapon choices don't mean much, dodging is easy etc. Not to mention the level design is quite simple in comparison. It's a fun game for what it is but the game is seriously repetitive and basic.

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4 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

When I said shallow, I didn't mean the number of mechanics but the process of gameplay itself. I found 2016's combat to ask very little of the player - ammo management is simple, weapon choices don't mean much, dodging is easy etc. Not to mention the level design is quite simple in comparison. It's a fun game for what it is but the game is seriously repetitive and basic.

 

That's fine, it's when they were first onto something with the combat. It was fun for its time - still can be for some - and Eternal owes everything to the foundations it set, besides the obvious stuff like assets. I found level design comparable between the two, but I wouldn't mind more attempts like the Foundry.

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9 hours ago, kexen said:

The only games 2016 and Eternal really play like are things like Unreal 1 and Metroid Prime

I can sort of see the similarity with Unreal in terms of aggressive AI, but Metroid Prime? :o

 

Is it because of the immersive HUD and body awareness?

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15 hours ago, kexen said:

That aside, some of all this is buried in how people like to draw a solid line between Doom and Quake, and that practice should stop. Quake is effectively the followup to Doom, much like how Doom is effectively the followup to Wolfenstein 3D. People understood that Quake II was a gameplay sequel to Quake even if the setting was completely different, but you don't need a specific name to make this clear. Likewise, 2016 and Eternal are the followups to what id Software had done up to that point, and also reflect a kind of reboot for the entire company. Most developers work this way, especially developers that are known for making a particular kind of game.

 

And you can really see, as the Jumpads and all the talk about the vertical Combat is something that was set up in Quake 1-3.

 

5 hours ago, Rudolph said:

I can sort of see the similarity with Unreal in terms of aggressive AI, but Metroid Prime? :o

 

Is it because of the immersive HUD and body awareness?

 

I guess because you are powering up the Protagonist.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Azuris said:

 

And you can really see, as the Jumpads and all the talk about the vertical Combat is something that was set up in Quake 1-3.

Which have already been setup in Doom. If you compare Classic Doom with other FPS of that period you get two major differences: Vertical combat (open elevators, different height levels within each level,  fighting monsters below/above you) and lighting.

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Posted (edited)

…did everyone just forget a pandemic happened?

 

And that everyone at id Software had to work from home which drastically affected development of Doom Eternal and The Ancient Gods as a result?

 

Let’s be real here, I’m pretty sure that had things not played out the way they did in 2020 with COVID-19 being a thing, the way the Doom Eternal DLCs would have played out would likely be different.

How would the story have been different? Would there even be an Immora?

Would Mick Gordon have returned for the DLC?

Would there be new and more consistent game mechanics?

Would there have been more levels for each DLC?

Would the Dark Lord have turned into a dragon at one point while fighting him?

 

 

Probably, but at this point there’s no use in speculating over “what could have been” anymore. id absolutely did the best they could with what they had to work with, and there’s no changing that.


 

I’m sorry if I come across as irritated here, but there’s things here one has to let go. I mean, it’s been well over an entire year since TAG2 came out.

 

 

Is it really worth it to get so bent out of shape over things beyond one’s control, long after said things happened?


Because I can tell you from personal experience on how I handled the Mick Gordon incident that continuing to obsess over things I may have no idea happened is outright unhealthy.

Edited by Man of Doom

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The Dark Lord twist is the icing on the shit cake of the Slayer lore throwing all of Doomguy's "just a guy" aspects in the trash

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Posted (edited)
On 8/18/2022 at 1:45 PM, Man of Doom said:

…did everyone just forget a pandemic happened?

No. On the contrary, I am kind of disappointed in Id for not taking the hint: crunches were already bad, so to expect everyone to just proceed as usual with a deadly pandemic happening in the world is frankly unacceptable. I like playing Doom, but it is not an essential service and thus non-essential workers should not have been pushed so hard given the circumstances: if anything, Id should have used the opportunity to slow things down and take its time to do things well and safely, as they definitely can afford it. This goes for other games as well: while I did enjoy Borderlands 3's Krieg DLC, knowing that it had to be rushed due to the pandemic left a bitte taste in my mouth.

 

Contrast this with a much-smaller studio like Hinterland Studio, which decided to just push back the release of their DLCs for their flagship The Long Dark and take their time to not only complete their development, but also to rethink their approach to the Survival mode.

Edited by Rudolph

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Posted (edited)

I can't really say what is right or wrong. I know crunch is objectively bad, but I do want to point out sometimes the show must go on even in a pandemic if they wish to maintain their jobs.

 

Employees need to work to pay their bills, employers need their product to sell. Putting everything on pause could seriously hurt the company, or slowing everything down could cost too much with such big overheads.

 

Not that I want to completely justify their approach. Chances are they were well and truly in the green but greedily rushed production to maximise every cent for the shareholders, especially when people are in quarantine playing more games. We don't really know for sure, but the pandemic is a unique situation and I understand why quality would have been impacted and more lenient this time around (strictly speaking to quality).

 

Honestly, I think DLC2 was pretty great! Boss fight notwithstanding, that was crap. Not a fan of Horde mode either, not something many of us asked for (their version of it).

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It sucks that the people at the top (Bethesda/ZeniMax, in this case) are never the ones making the sacrifice despite doing the least amount of work. At the very least, I can only hope that they have taken precautions in case history repeats itself and there is another lockdown.

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I don't hate the DLCs.

I think TAG Part 1 is fairly solid and I think TAG 2 is OK.
However I do feel that unfortunately TAG2 was rushed and that led to it being a very mixed bag. I also don't care for the lore in TAG2.

It's a case where I don't really hold it against ID though.
They were contractually obligated to release it within a certain time due to the stipulations of the Season Pass and Covid hit hard.
They delayed it as long as they could.

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I'm with the chorus of "Eternal awesome, TAG1 excellent, TAG2 disappointing".

 

Atlantica is maybe my favorite level full stop, and I found the boss fight at the end of TAG1 to be the real ball-buster of difficulty. The boss fight that ends TAG2 wasn't as hard but was just a marathon to finish.

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I only hate the stupid cursed prowlers, very lame enemy type. Otherwise both are ok, although the hammer is way too cheesy and overpowerd, hopefully it doesn't even return if they make a second season of updates.

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On 8/2/2022 at 12:28 PM, Mr. Freeze said:

2016 and DE play nothing like Classic Doom but at 2016 at least tried to ape it. 

Is that supposed to be a good thing?


If I want classic doom, I'll play one of the 16,000 great Doom2 wads or Doom knock-offs.

 

Once you get good enough at Doom Eternal to steamroll and essentially take gameplay mechanics as a suggestion, it reaches a zen state that ID should be commended for bringing into existence - classic Doom has nothing on that. No other shooter has anything on it. 

 

edit: I have to join in the chorus of disappointment over the Dark Lord fight, and the ending lore. Very underwhelming fight. Visually unattractive, cheesy satan mech suit, boring mechanics, all of it

 

 

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On 9/18/2022 at 9:55 AM, Kute said:

Is that supposed to be a good thing?


If I want classic doom, I'll play one of the 16,000 great Doom2 wads or Doom knock-offs.

 

Once you get good enough at Doom Eternal to steamroll and essentially take gameplay mechanics as a suggestion, it reaches a zen state that ID should be commended for bringing into existence - classic Doom has nothing on that. No other shooter has anything on it. 

 

edit: I have to join in the chorus of disappointment over the Dark Lord fight, and the ending lore. Very underwhelming fight. Visually unattractive, cheesy satan mech suit, boring mechanics, all of it

 

 

i wish i could like something twice.

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On 9/18/2022 at 12:55 PM, Kute said:

Once you get good enough at Doom Eternal to steamroll and essentially take gameplay mechanics as a suggestion, it reaches a zen state that ID should be commended for bringing into existence - classic Doom has nothing on that. No other shooter has anything on it. 

 

Yeah I adore being "in the zone" in Eternal when everything just feels fluid and easy and fast as shit, flying through the air effortlessly, swapping from meat hook to other weapons, using all your resources in sequence, crushing the demonic opposition.

 

Gameplay-wise, I almost feel at this point that D2016 is a link from the gameplay of Classic Doom to DE. It's not either one. But while I still play Classic and frequently rip and tear on Doom Eternal, I rarely feel tempted to revisit the gameplay of 2016.

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I hate nothing. Any Doom is good Doom but I do lean toward preferring TAG2 a bit more personally.

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I didn't hate the DLCs, but I found TAG1 disappointing and didn't even bother with TAG2.  If anything, I am apathetic to them.  I tried TAG1, but its an exhausting coke-fueled fever dream...on EASY difficulty.

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I love the DLCs! I am currently trying to beat them in Ultra-Nightmare. TAG1 is my favorite with its soundtrack and combat arenas. The (sensical) removal of the Crucible made it so that you really had to put effort into completing the arenas, without skipping a thing, which was brutally fun!

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On 8/21/2022 at 4:25 PM, Rudolph said:

No. On the contrary, I am kind of disappointed in Id for not taking the hint: crunches were already bad, so to expect everyone to just proceed as usual with a deadly pandemic happening in the world is frankly unacceptable. I like playing Doom, but it is not an essential service and thus non-essential workers should not have been pushed so hard given the circumstances: if anything, Id should have used the opportunity to slow things down and take its time to do things well and safely, as they definitely can afford it. This goes for other games as well: while I did enjoy Borderlands 3's Krieg DLC, knowing that it had to be rushed due to the pandemic left a bitte taste in my mouth.

 

On 8/21/2022 at 5:51 PM, Chezza said:

I can't really say what is right or wrong. I know crunch is objectively bad, but I do want to point out sometimes the show must go on even in a pandemic if they wish to maintain their jobs.

 

Employees need to work to pay their bills, employers need their product to sell. Putting everything on pause could seriously hurt the company, or slowing everything down could cost too much with such big overheads.

 

Not that I want to completely justify their approach. Chances are they were well and truly in the green but greedily rushed production to maximise every cent for the shareholders, especially when people are in quarantine playing more games. We don't really know for sure, but the pandemic is a unique situation and I understand why quality would have been impacted and more lenient this time around (strictly speaking to quality).

 

Honestly, I think DLC2 was pretty great! Boss fight notwithstanding, that was crap. Not a fan of Horde mode either, not something many of us asked for (their version of it).


Ok, so I’m not going to pretend like I know that “this is exactly what went down at id Software” during the development of both TAG1 and TAG2.

 

But what I do understand is that the “rush to push things out the door” was most likely contractual obligation more than anything (namely with the Year One Pass which promised two singleplayer DLCs within one year).


 

As for TAG itself, let’s just say that I found myself playing levels like the World Spear and Reclaimed Earth more than I did levels like the Blood Swamps and the Holt.

 

Thing is, not every level has to be a Master Level.

 


And lastly, I need to call something out right here, right now:

 

Namely, this attitude of “disliking that people like the thing you dislike”.


 

(DISCLAIMER: I’m not calling out anyone specifically, it’s just a mentality I’ve seen pop up not just here but in multiple places as well.

Especially since apparently there’s now a rivalry of sorts between Doom Eternal and Ultrakill; no, I don’t get it either. They’re two entirely separate games with entirely separate playstyles; why compare apples to oranges?)


 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with disliking something.

Hell, if you think the Doom franchise needs to be taken out behind the shed because “Doomguy rides a dragon” or anything like that, more power to you.

 

But there’s a very distinct difference between just disliking something and “making multi-part essays on how Doom jumped the shark”, let alone when it results in others getting attacked because they liked what you didn’t like.

Especially the developers.


 

Don’t get me wrong, there are things about both parts of TAG that don’t really gel with me (particularly with the lore) but I think it's more that it's just not my bag.

 

(Plus, with the lore, it does feel like something that actually can be addressed in a future title without necessarily resorting to retcons let alone a hard reboot.

Hell, TAG2 is not even remotely comparable to something like say, Aliens: Colonial Marines, Mass Effect 3, the final season of Game of Thrones or Lost, or The Rise of Skywalker.)

 

I don't rag on the people who do like it, I just shrug and move on.

I don't think that there's much out there that I just viscerally *hate*, but there has to be a much more legitimate reason than “it subverted expectations” (I.E. the work in question is actively harmful towards minorities).

 

 

But if there is one thing I can’t take seriously at all, it’s this idea that one is allowed to relentlessly criticize everything, but don’t you dare criticize that criticism because it’s “beyond reproach” or something.

 

 

There are people who professionally designed games or mods who I saw livetweeting about or posting literal video essays about Doom Eternal (or TAG1/TAG2) making direct digs at [X person at id Software, particularly Hugo Martin], not even criticizing the game anymore but directly going after the developer(s) for having ever made it in the first place.

 

But we can't criticize them for that? For literally calling the people at id lazy?

 

I’m sorry, but I call bullshit.

 

 

Besides, defending misunderstood media and bashing my head against popular narratives among the fandoms I'm in that don't actually make sense has somehow just become my thing at this point (particularly with what I’ve been busy working on lately).

 

It's actually why I've been pointing out lately how many those popular narratives of yesteryear within this fandom in particular have been abandoned, and those hated and misunderstood works are suddenly popular and beloved now (case in point, Doom 3 and now the Doom 2005 movie).

 

 

Mayhaps knowing that even with all the hatred and vitriol and malding that occurred prior to Doom 2016’s release (it was especially bad in various Doom Facebook groups), it's now more beloved than ever, so perhaps whatever it is with the Doom franchise one is raging about today...

 

…just isn't worth the blood pressure and Bitch Eating Crackers mentality after all.

Edited by Man of Doom

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My only major gripes are with the story repeatedly retconning itself and the Dark Lord being an unsatisfying final boss to end the series on. To a lesser extent I don't really care for any of the new enemies other than the Armor Baron and the Spirits. I'm not a fan of how much the "Simon Says" design philosophy was pushed with some enemies in the DLCs, particularly the turrets and the Blood Maykr.

Other than that, I liked pretty much everything else. The levels were fun, the environments were well designed and varied, and the soundtrack was sick as hell.

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