Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
deathz0r

dsda-doom endoom support [split]

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Funny. When I changed GZDoom to do exactly that, a few people complained. I guess you can't please anyone... :D

Lol it kinda boggles my mind that people would complain about that, but I guess some people don't like change and/or like things a certain way.

 

You could always maybe change the ENDOOM toggle from <off | on>, to like < off | window | fullscreen > or something like that.

 

Like in the ini, for showendoom you can do 0=off, 1=window, 2=fullscreen. That way you don't have people getting mad that you changed something.

 

I have a 2K resolution monitor so the window is like soo small for me, making it kinda useless for use to that option.

Share this post


Link to post

At the moment the backend cannot do the toggle, that's why I skipped it until that code can be rewritten. There's too much badly coded dependencies on the actual game screen size that make resizing difficult.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

We talk a lot about ENDOOM here but nobody posts one. I feel we need to do this discussion justice by atleast one ENDOOM.

 So here is @valkiriforce's based on the ENDOOM tutorial by @zokum:

 

I guess since I'm sorta defending ENDOOM, I should probably post some of my own:

 

ENDOOM-100lnm.gif

 

ENDOOM-slotter.gif

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Eddie 2077 said:

I've been reading through this a while and regarding a potential fork of DSDA-Doom, I wonder if it would be a possibility to use an existing fork instead of a brand new one. I know From Doom With Love is based on DSDA-Doom, so maybe updating and porting potential features to FDWL could be the solution if agreed upon. I don't have experience to be able to know if this is a good solution, but I figured I'd throw it out there in case it happens to be ideal.

That'd be interesting. @Charlie Love Opinion?

 

7 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

We talk a lot about ENDOOM here but nobody posts one.

d64fd2.png.3ff6abe9f60ad521a3c8e0567e7b44dd.pngENDOOMx.PNG.d5744fb7a9c07ae4b26e362d1eb723e0.PNG

2048endoom.png.8c04214768ec759d8b97c7b7f8724063.png

Share this post


Link to post

Let's move the ENDOOM posting to this appreciation thread I made here:

 

I don't want this thread to go too far off topic.

Share this post


Link to post

as a now reformed ENDOOM hater I appreciate the thought and aesthetic of ENDOOM's and would still like to see them in some other form.

Share this post


Link to post

ENDOOM screens are an essential part of doom wad construction for many creators, including me. Removing the support is an odd choice to me. Why not go one step further, stop displaying the titlepic, might as well just display a black screen? People can play the game in any way they want, but as an ansi artist, this saddens me.

As for dsda-doom and speed running. This port doesn't represent speed runners or speed running in Doom, it isn't a standard in any way or form. If people want to use it, fine by me, but the records set with this tool aren't necessarily comparable to the ones set in doom2.exe etc. The whole speed runners vs others is a false dichotomy as there are many who do speed running in the original executable, more conservative ports like Chocolate Doom, the unity port or various (G)Zdoom family of ports.

I think most speed running communities wouldn't have accepted a port like this for records as it is so far removed from the original game. Each to their own. I personally see it as a training tool. Something to use to practice running in, but not something I'd use to set records in. That's my opinion though, and people are free to have other opinions.

That's whats so great about open source. People are free to do what they want. It's the moment people demand others have to follow their standards or ideals that I protest. If Kraflab wants to remove endoom support, fine. He can do what he wants with his fork of the Doom code base. I know what its like to develop code that is divisive, ZokumBSP had some features and changes that irked several people. There's been countless discussions about what exactly vanilla compatibility is...

The question for me is, how far away from the original game can a port go and still be considered Doom. In my book only Chocolate Doom is good enough in that area, even if it too has some very minor shortcomings/changes compared to doom2.exe v1.9. Fast Doom is a collection of ports to various hardware, I suspect some of them are also close enough, but I don't have enough experience with it, yet

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, zokum said:

As for dsda-doom and speed running. This port doesn't represent speed runners or speed running in Doom, it isn't a standard in any way or form. If people want to use it, fine by me, but the records set with this tool aren't necessarily comparable to the ones set in doom2.exe etc. The whole speed runners vs others is a false dichotomy as there are many who do speed running in the original executable, more conservative ports like Chocolate Doom, the unity port or various (G)Zdoom family of ports.

I think most speed running communities wouldn't have accepted a port like this for records as it is so far removed from the original game. Each to their own. I personally see it as a training tool. Something to use to practice running in, but not something I'd use to set records in. That's my opinion though, and people are free to have other opinions.

I probably shouldn't add to the derailment of the thread into an "sourceport-focused discussion", but you have more than several things wrong:


1. There's barely anybody doing any runs using (g)zdoom, I'm one of them occasinoally and I saw like a person or two participating in doing Lilith.pk3/Invasion UAC runs along with me but 2-3 people doesn't constitute an active (g)zdoom runnerbase. Also, using (g)zdoom is generally only allowed for (g)zdoom-specific wads only, otherwise the runs aren't valid. And yes, you also see "speedruns" of people using (g)zdoom ports but most of them don't play on UV + they don't provide a demo + they likely just spam e1m1 and expect the run to be valid :). And how come you talk about DSDA-Doom being so removed from the original game when (G)Zdoom is 10 million times worse in that regard??? Not to mention demo compatibility is basically busted since you have to make sure you have the corresponding version of (G)Zdoom to playback a demo that was done on that version.

 

2. How do you expect us to use Doom2.exe or Chocolate Doom to run complevel 9 (Boom), 11 (MBF) and 21 (MBF21)/limit-removing wads? [Doom Retro supports these but oh no, does it stray a bit too far too by supporting these complevels?]

 

3. DSDA-Doom. It's literally a port made for speedrunners by a speedrunner. Of course, anyone can use any port they want to speedrun, but DSDA-Doom is made to have convienent and nice-to-have QoL improvements towards the demo recording/on-the-fly TASing experience, sublime demo compatibility and pretty fast support for new things like -complevel 21 and hexen-in-doom format. Yes, it isn't exactly a 1:1 replica of the original game, but otherwise how do you expect it to keep up with new complevels and such? Or attend to those that just like playing on OpenGL to have more than 1 FPS on 1920x1080 or any higher res than that? It caters to every doom speedrunner's needs that you can think of except maybe those that wanna do (G)Zdoom wads, since demo compatibility doesn't work in a (G)ZDoom environment if you want to, god forbid, update the sourceport, or those that want a completely vanilla experience like you, I suppose (Xit Vono is the only runner I know that still uses Doom2.exe to this day, but that's just one, and it's because he wants to.). And to add to the actual thread at hand: ENDOOM does nothing but add an extra screen to exit on, and since not a lot of people use DSDA-Doom for casual playthroughs (although I've seen some that do because of the QoL changes), it makes complete sense for its removal (not to mention the extra keypress at the end which for people like me, it just throws me off.)

 

4. "The port doesn't represent speed runners or speed running in Doom". You've done a singular doom2 Map15s Pacifist co-op demo back in 2001 (if my sources are right about you being Kim Hauge). I'm not exactly known for my long history in speedrunning neither but you don't speak for the rest of us, especially when you just have 1 old demo. 2001 is 21 years ago, a lot of speedrunners have come and go, and speedrunning itself as a hobby has changed significantly.

Edited by Daniel, the NCR Veteran

Share this post


Link to post

At the risk of running in circles or further derailing this thread...

1 hour ago, zokum said:

ENDOOM screens are an essential part of doom wad construction for many creators, including me. Removing the support is an odd choice to me. Why not go one step further, stop displaying the titlepic, might as well just display a black screen? People can play the game in any way they want, but as an ansi artist, this saddens me.

This slippery slope has already been discussed to death earlier in the thread, but I'll reiterate that getting rid of the titlepic wouldn't enable cleaning up 7k+ lines of code (granted, most of the code to support ENDOOM was in its own directory separate from the rest of the code, and its removal is still easily reverted with few conflicts for now, but I digress), and most people already had ENDOOM disabled anyway. It's about as much of the game to them as the original setup program is. One source port dropping support for ENDOOM doesn't stop people from appreciating ENDOOM in myriad other source ports such as Woof, GZDoom, or Chocolate Doom, or in that ENDOOM appreciation thread shared above.

 

1 hour ago, zokum said:

I think most speed running communities wouldn't have accepted a port like this for records as it is so far removed from the original game.

Most speedrunning communities also don't extensively speedrun custom content that doesn't run with the original executable. The ones that do (Quake being the most obvious example) have followed paths similar to Doom's.

Share this post


Link to post

I think you're missing several of my points. You're also arguing against a ton of positions I don't hold. I don't have these things wrong, you misunderstood my post, no big deal. Maybe it will be a bit clearer once I explain a bit more.

1. I don't understand why you are so hung up on gzdoom, my point was that different ports are used for different mods/wads/tcs depending on what they were made for. Historically ports have 'come and gone' and so have demo formats.
2. You can use whatever port you like, but it's problematic to compare records made with different ports. The playing field isn't level.
3. I don't care about comp levels, I never said anything about comp levels.
4. I have never ever said I spoke for anyone other than myself, I made that VERY clear. Of course speed running has evolved and changed, my point is that you can't compare apples and oranges. I've never been one to release much of my stuff, apart from ZokumBSP, and that isn't all that relevant any way.

If you want to use DSDA-Doom, I'm fine with that. It has some really nice features. Use whatever you like.

I think my preferred endoom solution would be to add a command line switch or config option to turn endoom showing on/off.

Share this post


Link to post
17 minutes ago, 4shockblast said:

doesn't really matter to me what a non-speedrunner thinks

allears.png.87e314aca5ec0b178bdcd8eaf23383b2.png

Share this post


Link to post

Now that someone has puked their ignorant, self-important, and irrelevant opinions on speedrunning into a completely unrelated thread I have finally completed my bingo card.

 

"oh a thread about endoom, better go on a diatribe about modern speedrunning, a community I'm not even a part of"

Share this post


Link to post

Naturally, many people such as Doomkid and Graf Zahl brought up how DSDA-Doom is definitely more than a speedrunning port nowadays, and their points were conveniently ignored in favor of "there is only one true vision and we couldn't care less about what non-speedrunners think about it". Zokum's points have been deliberately misinterpreted to an incredible degree, and I'd say given that he's been part of this community since *at least* 1999 he knows a thing or two about it, including speedrunning.

 

I mean, even with quotes like this it's pretty evident:

 

18 hours ago, Master Medi said:

the removal of it means nothing to me and keeping it just to appease some people doesn't seem like a good idea

The idea that by adding a feature to a source port you're "appeasing" people, with the implication that anyone who dares make a suggestion is just some inconvenient schmuck who should really keep their mouth shut instead of getting in the way of someone's vision. Seriously, in almost 20 years of seeing source port development I've never, *ever* seen approving suggestions being seen as "appeasement".

 

In light of all these posts, then,

20 hours ago, kraflab said:

I find it frankly disgusting to suggest that I only listen to speedrunners.

Is it any wonder that this is exactly the kind of message that came across?

Share this post


Link to post

Again, this shouldn't be a "speedrunners" vs. "others" argument - it's not like non-speedrunners, or just speedrunners playing casually, were enabling ENDOOM either (prior to this thread anyway).

Share this post


Link to post

IMO it is great and very consistent to say you're disgusted at the accusation of only listening to speedrunners, while also complaining that anyone who isn't an active speedrunner has soiled your thread by commenting in it. To me it feels very clear that you want to have it both ways, giving preferential treatment to your buddies while also pretending to be aghast at anyone who suggests you are. It's fine if you want to have a project for just you and your friends, but the toxic and dishonest attitude surrounding this is really dreadful.

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

allears.png.87e314aca5ec0b178bdcd8eaf23383b2.png

Fixed your quote for you

32 minutes ago, 4shockblast said:

you can feel free to consider every DSDA-Doom demo cheated, doesn't really matter to me what a non-speedrunner thinks about the runs tbh

 

Share this post


Link to post

Where did I complain about nonspeedrunners being in the thread? My problem is if nonspeedrunners want to tell us how speedrunning should work - a topic that isn't even the subject of this thread. Should I come in and tell you how btsx should be made or how mapping should work? I have no problem with anyone's opinion on endoom. Obviously for speedrunning topics the actual speedrunners are going to be considered more heavily because they have stake in it.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, kraflab said:

Should I come in and tell you how btsx should be made or how mapping should work?

In fairness, a lot of people have done that

Share this post


Link to post

I don't understand why essel and associates are pushing this narrative that I don't like mappers and nonspeedrunners. Is the goal to get rid of the source port? What exactly is your purpose to make such disingenuous posts? I got completely demotivated after being called an enemy of mapping earlier this year and haven't been able to get interested in working on any new standard stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, kraflab said:

Now that someone has puked their ignorant, self-important, and irrelevant opinions on speedrunning into a completely unrelated thread I have finally completed my bingo card.

Yeah I mean, you would know something about acting that way, wouldn't you. "Anyone who disagrees with Us is braindead."

image.png.be367de429f73d15957f631f797741e0.png

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, kraflab said:

I don't understand why essel and associates are pushing this narrative that I don't like mappers and nonspeedrunners. Is the goal to get rid of the source port? What exactly is your purpose to make such disingenuous posts? I got completely demotivated after being called an enemy of mapping earlier this year and haven't been able to get interested in working on any new standard stuff.

I don't understand why I'm being given top billing here when I showed up in your thread less than 10 minutes ago. I am not being disingenuous in telling you your attitude is terrible.

Share this post


Link to post

You said that I only listen to speedrunners, and that I'm being dishonest about it. Where? I don't remember ignoring the whole community and listening to speedrunners only when organizing mbf21, or when planning out new features for this port, or when thinking about the future. I've spent a lot of energy thinking about how to lift up all ports and approach standards that everyone can enjoy, regardless of playstyle, regardless of port even, working with other source port authors and developers that aren't related to speedrunning. I just don't understand why are you demonizing me for something I haven't even done. Own what you say.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×