Why doom 1 & 2 could do well with a remaster(?)

[The Doommer]

This obviously would not be vanilla at all

And I'm not really talking about the 3D model projects that have been done either, with all due respect to them, no hate at all

What I am thinking about is something like this:

Remember how second encounter (wolf 3d) is more of a higher-details games with the sprites being redone a little bit?

 

So imagine the sprites of doom monsters/projectiles with a higher res and a couple other features I'll discuss in length a couple lines below

Now, this is not really to say Doom is outdated, cause it's actually a pretty good looking game even now.

 

And Wolfenstein did need a redesign cause a lot of the sprites are lower-detailed than Doom's (except bosses probably)

 

What I think would be a good community project is something like this:

• Re-designing of doom sprites to an extent. Adding more details to it
• Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil) - I think most maps should stay the same with some tweaks. Showing Doomguy crawling through slime in a hell-infested facility could show the trauma he went through (leading to 2016 timeline)
• Maybe making the games a little bit harder (Something like how Plutonia designed the maps but not too brutal)?
• Making the pistol useful, it's useless. I feel like a faster fire rate could do well
• Replace the Icon of Sin with a more mobile version of it? Sure put the head somewhere as an easter egg but I feel like IoS is an outdated boss in Doom 2 (Personal opinion)
• This is totally a side idea, but I always liked how Wolf 3D gave the E6 boss both a rocket launcher and a chaingun. Later this gets added as the Death Night which is pretty cool tbvh. Maybe add a CyberMastermind (I'm not good at names lol) which has both weapons somewhere in the Doom 2 remaster.

Overall, Doom is a great game and can be left untouched, however I thought something like that would be a nice love tribute to classic dooms

 

EDIT: For some weird reason even tho I posted it at the WAD discussions, it appeared here. Not sure if it's a right place but sorry in advance

Edited July 6, 2022 by The Doommer

[Redneckerz]

Im sorry but this is what i thought upon reading the above

 

 

More details:

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

What I think would be a good community project is something like this:

• Re-designing of doom sprites to an extent. Adding more details to it

In what way? Neural upscale? Why would one need a high res sprite replacement as a official remaster when we have excellent community efforts achieving similar?

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

• Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil) - I think most maps should stay the same with some tweaks. Showing Doomguy crawling through slime in a hell-infested facility could show the trauma he went through (leading to 2016 timeline)

This is literally a gameplay loop of at best a few minutes. I feel this reads more as a power fantasy or a take on Brutal Doom than something that geniunely improves Doom. 

 

As for difficulty, a new game+ option could be useful.

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

• Making the pistol useful, it's useless. I feel like a faster fire rate could do well

I disagree. The pistol is a useful starter weapon for Shotty's and Zombiemen. What you suggest is to easify its use or discard it altogether. The pistol is a icon of Doom.

1 hour ago, The Doommer said:

• Overall, Doom is a great game and can be left untouched, however I thought something like that would be a nice love tribute to classic dooms

I didn't go over the rest bevcause they feel like personal idealations and less so actual ideas at improving Doom's core content.

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil)

Sigil is objectively not made for jumping or crouching.

[Murdoch]

So your idea of a "Remaster" is "break significant aspects of the gameplay" ? Pass.

[enigma101]

This sounds more like your idea of a remake than a remaster.

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

What I think would be a good community project is something like this:

• Re-designing of doom sprites to an extent. Adding more details to it
• Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil) - I think most maps should stay the same with some tweaks. Showing Doomguy crawling through slime in a hell-infested facility could show the trauma he went through (leading to 2016 timeline)
• Maybe making the games a little bit harder (Something like how Plutonia designed the maps but not too brutal)?
• Making the pistol useful, it's useless. I feel like a faster fire rate could do well
• Replace the Icon of Sin with a more mobile version of it? Sure put the head somewhere as an easter egg but I feel like IoS is an outdated boss in Doom 2 (Personal opinion)
• This is totally a side idea, but I always liked how Wolf 3D gave the E6 boss both a rocket launcher and a chaingun. Later this gets added as the Death Night which is pretty cool tbvh. Maybe add a CyberMastermind (I'm not good at names lol) which has both weapons somewhere in the Doom 2 remaster.

These also just seem like issues you have with the game, rather than issues that would need to be remastered. Also the sprites, pistol and the Icon of Sin are all what make Doom, changing them would just make the whole game feel off and strange.

[OniriA]

3 hours ago, The Doommer said:

• Re-designing of doom sprites to an extent. Adding more details to it
• Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil) - I think most maps should stay the same with some tweaks. Showing Doomguy crawling through slime in a hell-infested facility could show the trauma he went through (leading to 2016 timeline)
• Maybe making the games a little bit harder (Something like how Plutonia designed the maps but not too brutal)?
• Making the pistol useful, it's useless. I feel like a faster fire rate could do well
• Replace the Icon of Sin with a more mobile version of it? Sure put the head somewhere as an easter egg but I feel like IoS is an outdated boss in Doom 2 (Personal opinion)
• This is totally a side idea, but I always liked how Wolf 3D gave the E6 boss both a rocket launcher and a chaingun. Later this gets added as the Death Night which is pretty cool tbvh. Maybe add a CyberMastermind (I'm not good at names lol) which has both weapons somewhere in the Doom 2 remaster.

 

No. 

[Vulkar 04]

3 hours ago, The Doommer said:

This obviously would not be vanilla at all

And I'm not really talking about the 3D model projects that have been done either, with all due respect to them, no hate at all

What I am thinking about is something like this:

Remember how second encounter (wolf 3d) is more of a higher-details games with the sprites being redone a little bit?

 

So imagine the sprites of doom monsters/projectiles with a higher res and a couple other features I'll discuss in length a couple lines below

Now, this is not really to say Doom is outdated, cause it's actually a pretty good looking game even now.

 

And Wolfenstein did need a redesign cause a lot of the sprites are lower-detailed than Doom's (except bosses probably)

 

What I think would be a good community project is something like this:

• Re-designing of doom sprites to an extent. Adding more details to it
• Designing maps that are designed for jump/crouch (Just like Sigil) - I think most maps should stay the same with some tweaks. Showing Doomguy crawling through slime in a hell-infested facility could show the trauma he went through (leading to 2016 timeline)
• Maybe making the games a little bit harder (Something like how Plutonia designed the maps but not too brutal)?
• Making the pistol useful, it's useless. I feel like a faster fire rate could do well
• Replace the Icon of Sin with a more mobile version of it? Sure put the head somewhere as an easter egg but I feel like IoS is an outdated boss in Doom 2 (Personal opinion)
• This is totally a side idea, but I always liked how Wolf 3D gave the E6 boss both a rocket launcher and a chaingun. Later this gets added as the Death Night which is pretty cool tbvh. Maybe add a CyberMastermind (I'm not good at names lol) which has both weapons somewhere in the Doom 2 remaster.

Overall, Doom is a great game and can be left untouched, however I thought something like that would be a nice love tribute to classic dooms

 

EDIT: For some weird reason even tho I posted it at the WAD discussions, it appeared here. Not sure if it's a right place but sorry in advance

1. Sounds interesting but nah

2. Absolutely nope. Maybe maps for only run.

3. Agree and disagree, Plutonia maps are fine, but they are very short. All the maps you need to go in circles, nothing to explore like TNT. Also, those maps like Plutonia are for 6 – 9 minutes. 

4. Great idea. It could work only for the beginning of the maps.  

5. Yeah, It needs to change. I´d love to see different stages for its damage. 

6. Mmmmm

 

Also new weapons, monster, music and maybe cutscenes like BLOOM could be awesome. 

[dasho]

I think you can manage all of this with existing community content.

[kalensar]

Doom 3 and Doom 2016 are literally the remakes that you wanted.

 

For Remaster? They already exist in map format or TC like Doom Tribute Project. Brutal Doom V21 and Extermination Day are literal remakes with upgraded physics and graphics

[Unregistered User]

Every remaster of everything that has ever been remastered is terrible.

 

[out_of_service]

A proper remaster would be mint!

[Jaccident]

3 hours ago, Cacodreamin' said:

Every remaster of everything that has ever been remastered is terrible.

I’d say the quake one is pretty good 

[The Doommer]

12 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

we have excellent community efforts achieving similar?

I think we got off to a rough start for a misunderstanding

 

I never said the community has never achieved great stuff, I just thought the idea would be decent

 

11 hours ago, Murdoch said:

break significant aspects of the gameplay

If you mean jump/crouch, it's something that already kinda exists in Doom (the jump part at least)

 

12 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

The pistol is a useful starter weapon for Shotty's and Zombiemen. What you suggest is to easify its use or discard it altogether. The pistol is a icon of Doom.

I should have elaborated on what I meant

The pistol works decently with zombiemen and shotgunners, however it never sees almost any use after you get a shotgun and especially a chaingun

What I mean is give it a little more rate of fire so that it can be used as a faster firing weapon

 

12 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Im sorry but this is what i thought upon reading the above

 

This was a barebones concept not an actual project

 

10 hours ago, enigma101 said:

These also just seem like issues you have with the game

False

Hence the last line in my post

 

7 hours ago, kalensar said:

Doom 3 and Doom 2016 are literally the remakes that you wanted.

Again, I said remaster.

 

10 hours ago, enigma101 said:

This sounds more like your idea of a remake than a remaster.

Remake means different engine, remaster means same engine with a bunch of QoLs added.

So not the same.

Besides, this is just a barebones concept so it can be altered.

 

4 hours ago, Cacodreamin' said:

Every remaster of everything that has ever been remastered is terrible.

There are a couple exceptions, but that's besides the point.

However, those are not made by the community itself afaik.

 

7 hours ago, kalensar said:

Brutal Doom V21 and Extermination Day are literal remakes with upgraded physics and graphics

Exactly, I proposed a remaster with mostly vanilla gameplay and monsters.

 

9 hours ago, N2Roficial said:

Plutonia maps are fine, but they are very short.

I meant more of a long challenging maps. Not exact Plutonia replicates.

 

12 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

This is literally a gameplay loop of at best a few minutes.

it really depends on how the maps are designed. You could have jumpable areas and areas that are too far/high for jumps.

 

9 hours ago, dasho said:

I think you can manage all of this with existing community content.

The community has always been pumping out amazing idea. The reason the games are still going strong is because of community content.

So I'm not really implying that the community has never done something similar. Just thought it would be a concept to be concidered.

 

11 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Sigil is objectively not made for jumping or crouching.

Been a while since I played it so ig I was wrong

 

10 hours ago, enigma101 said:

Also the sprites, pistol and the Icon of Sin are all what make Doom, changing them would just make the whole game feel off and strange.

I'm not asking for too much change on them.

Well maybe on IoS but the pistol can do with the same sprite and more rate of fire.

 

Just putting it out there, what I came up with is an initial concept. So not all of these need to make it into the project.

Hell, entirely different ideas can also be discussed.

[Wavy]

If there was ever a Doom and Doom 2 remaster, most I could see added is a hardware renderer with Strive: VE styled lighting, and perhaps an exclusive episode, but that's about it.

[D4NUK1]

For a remaster being a remaster, would need to be the same levels, the same atmosphere and the same gameplay, if iD Software made changes on the level desing to introduce jumping and crouching, would be out of place.

 

If the made a new map set for accomodate to the new settings, it's would be like a way of saying, this is the new Doom II , and we not care to take in care the classic maps, that's on the community now.

 

The way i read this topic, it's a new iD Tech 1 game with newer features that are in a Doom universe gamelplay wise (Same monsters, same doomguy, same UAC). That's would be really the better choise and if something like this happened, would take a certain fandom to like this versions more (likely how are people that like Doom 64 more that Ultimate Doom or Doom II).

A new game always beat a remake, reimaginantion or remastered because it's NOT attached to something already created.

[The Doommer]

2 minutes ago, D4NUK1 said:

if iD Software made changes on the level desing to introduce jumping and crouching, would be out of place.

 

I'm proposing a community project tho, not iD software product

Besides that point, having jump/crouch compatible levels can sometimes have some good aspects. Like more of how Doomguy is an underdog in the classic Doom and has to crawl through a destroyed facility etc.

 

4 minutes ago, D4NUK1 said:

it's would be like a way of saying, this is the new Doom II , and we not care to take in care the classic maps, that's on the community now.

Again, I'm proposing a community project, not something that iD should do

 

4 minutes ago, D4NUK1 said:

A new game always beat a remake, reimaginantion or remastered because it's NOT attached to something already created.

Black Mesa would like to know your location.

 

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

The biggest problem here is that there have already been countless threads about remaking/remastering DOOM. It's already been discussed to episode 3 and back.

[The Doommer]

I only knew about the 3D model variations of the games.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

I only knew about the 3D model variations of the games.

Well, I said it's been discussed countless times, but since you mentioned it, there have also been countless remakes/remasters of different maps/episodes, with some more in development as we speak.

[The Doommer]

5 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

there have also been countless remakes/remasters of different maps/episodes, with some more in development as we speak.

Well there's the E1 maps Romero remade

But was there ever a community project that decided to redesign all the maps?

 

I know knee-deep in zdoom (frankly one of the best community projects) exists but that brought SSG into the game which is really cool but won't feel like pure Doom 1 gunplay

[D4NUK1]

If you speak in a more user base content, we have as you mentioned 

Extermination Day, but we also have.
 

 

 

[The Doommer]

1 minute ago, D4NUK1 said:

Extermination Day

True but it's designed for BD which is a totally different gunplay

 

However it does seem like Doom II was getting some reimaginations/remasters which I never noticed

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I tend to ignore most stock map remakes (but I do at least notice them) so it would be best to ask someone else for the titles of such projects. One that comes to mind was a recent, in-development remake of DOOM 2, had some really nice looking screenshots with vibrant interpretations of the maps.

 

What I would recommend: download Brutal DOOM V21. Use whatever setting retains vanilla gameplay the most (can't recall the setting, it's been a long time) and play the original games with that. You'll have new animations, new gore, new visual additions to the maps, new episode bosses, and more.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

This thread was doomed form the start...responses above show why.

 

That nitpick out of the way. I do disagree on pistol. it's quite useful weapon, especially when dealing with bunch of hitscan from a far away range. It's just a nerfed chaingun, but far more accurate.

 

Jump/Crouch: those are GZDoom specific mechanics. And a number of people seem to despise that. What I don't get, is why?

However I would like to point out that none of the official doom maps, including sigil, had jump or crouch in mind. They were designed to work with the sourceports of their time, and for sigil, it still stayed true to the original doom gameplay, with the exception of evil eye being a switch.

 

Another thing to keep in mind: Remastering a game means keeping the intended mechanics largely intact. Now not every game does that (Hello Crash NSane trilogy) and sometimes adds quite a bit of new elements, but despite that keeps the core gameplay the same. However Nsane trilogy borders on remake rather than remaster. 
Flatout Ultimate carnage is more of what you would expect from a remaster, yet it was released as a standalone game. So quite frankly, using remake or remaster as a word in any context is bound to just muddy the waters. 

 

Icon of Sin...well...moving Icon of Sin is introduced in more modern doom games, which are different games in their own right. 

However, having more maps designed with jump/crouch in mind as community project could actually work wonders. This would probably have to be GZDoom, and if you're using GZDoom already, then GZDoom UDMF with jump/crouch mandatory could be a community project idea worth using. Not sure how many people would participate though.

 

Doom sprites are quite detailed already, however, I do think having new sprites for everything is a lot of work, but could be used by GZDoom to eliminate the "blurry monsters/textures" syndrome that texture filtering tends to cause. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[The Doommer]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

What I would recommend: download Brutal DOOM V21. Use whatever setting retains vanilla gameplay the most (can't recall the settings title, it's been a long time) and play the original games with that. You'll have new animations, new gore, new visual additions to the maps, new episode bosses, and more.

This wasn't really about new visuals entirely

 

Just some hobby to work on to maybe improve on what's already pretty good.

 

3 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Jump/Crouch: those are GZDoom specific mechanics. And a number of people seem to despise that. What I don't get, is why?

Especially since jumping is in vanilla Doom games, just in a different form

 

4 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

This thread was doomed from the start

I think people who responded initially took it as a "Doom is bad, here's a better way" post.

Which if they read the last line, they'd understand that this was simply an idea.

 

5 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Icon of Sin...well...moving Icon of Sin is introduced in more modern doom games, which are different games in their own right. 

I'm pretty sure IoS would not be a wall with a hole if iD had access to the technologies the classic Doom community has reached to these days.

 

7 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Doom sprites are quite detailed already

No doubt. However let's compare these 2 sprites from Wolfenstein 3D and second encounter and see how a similar idea can look neat for Doom:

 

I think we can agree that while Doom sprites have more details than Wolfenstein 3D, a similar redesign (with color palette preservation) could do wonders

 

12 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

However, having more maps designed with jump/crouch in mind as community project could actually work wonders. This would probably have to be GZDoom, and if you're using GZDoom already, then GZDoom UDMF with jump/crouch mandatory could be a community project idea worth using. Not sure how many people would participate though.

I did have GZDoom in mind when I came up with the idea. Cause if we're gonna increase pistol rate of fire/redesign IoS we'd have to use DECORATE cause DeHacked won't be able to do any of that afaik.

 

15 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

Remastering a game means keeping the intended mechanics largely intact.

Very true, however, the fact that Doom already has some sort of a jump mechanic means technically we'll only be adding crouching and giving jumping it's own dedicated button.

 

 

 

 

[IcarusOfDaggers]

4 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

Especially since jumping is in vanilla Doom games, just in a different form

Oh, you mean running off the ledges one. I would call that platforming. i thought you mean actual jump used in GZDoom.

6 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I think people who responded initially took it as a "Doom is bad, here's a better way" post.

Which if they read the last line, they'd understand that this was simply an idea.

Yhea, but it just keeps happening. Which makes you want to ask, why do people keep acting like that? 

 

8 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I'm pretty sure IoS would not be a wall with a hole if iD had access to the technologies the classic Doom community has reached to these days.

I think I saw somewhere on the youtube that the reason for Icon Of Sin's implementation this way was lack of time, but I don't remember where it was.

9 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I did have GZDoom in mind when I came up with the idea. Cause if we're gonna increase pistol rate of fire/redesign IoS we'd have to use DECORATE cause DeHacked won't be able to do any of that afaik.

You can increase the rate of fire with DeHacked, by reducing the guns animation states. Was somewhere in this video. However, making IoS move around and be an actual monster would need commander keen replacement. I don't know about modifying enemies that much, only what i've seen or heard from youtube/forum posts

[Shepardus]

25 minutes ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

That nitpick out of the way. I do disagree on pistol. it's quite useful weapon, especially when dealing with bunch of hitscan from a far away range. It's just a nerfed chaingun, but far more accurate.

The pistol is not more accurate than the chaingun. Both weapons are perfectly accurate for their first shot, and since the chaingun fires bullets two at a time, it's actually accurate for its first two shots. Subsequent shots spread out (if you continue to hold the fire button), but the pistol and chaingun (and even the shotgun) share the same spread.

[Muusi]

All of this is a terrible idea. Even as someone who pretty much only buys remakes and remasters nowadays. 

 

Hi-res textures, neural uspcaled stuff and 3D models all look goofy and out of place so no thank you. The voxel project is awesome though and the right way to make the vanilla monsters in 3D.

[Denim Destroyer]

Stop the damn remakes and give me something new.

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

I think we got off to a rough start for a misunderstanding

 

I never said the community has never achieved great stuff, I just thought the idea would be decent

I never said otherwise, i am just saying that we have excellent community efforts achieving similar to what you suggest. Thus the only reason you want it official, is because you want an official remaster.

 

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

 

If you mean jump/crouch, it's something that already kinda exists in Doom (the jump part at least)

As it turned out you are referring to something else than jumping (as in GZDoom), but rather platforming (as in Vanilla). Jumping isn't a natural thing in Doom, to preserve its feel, it should retain similar.

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

 

I should have elaborated on what I meant

The pistol works decently with zombiemen and shotgunners, however it never sees almost any use after you get a shotgun and especially a chaingun

What I mean is give it a little more rate of fire so that it can be used as a faster firing weapon

That's still an opinion and not a overall improvement in my point of view. A pistol later becomes a back up weapon when you run out of shells. Because it shares ammo with the chainie, you have to tacticallly pick your poison - Thus the pistol retains its use.

 

A faster rate of fire tells me you want something akin to the Assault Rifle from Brutal Doom - Which replaces the pistol, fires faster, and you can zoom. 

 

But a Doom remaster shouldn't be Brutal Doom or even BD-like in my opinion, because we already have BD for exactly that.

2 hours ago, The Doommer said:

it really depends on how the maps are designed. You could have jumpable areas and areas that are too far/high for jumps.

But then it wouldn't be Doom, because Doom isn't about jumping. That's why people reference Doom 2016 and Eternal. You want a Doom remaster that's like Doom 2016/Doom Eternal.