tag 666/667

[Deadsmple]

HI all, i have a few questions regarding tag 666 and tag 667. First what exactly do these tags do? Second are these tags map specific? (do they only work in map07?). Third are there any other tags like these that require you to kill certain monsters? I can't seem to find any documentation on these tags. I have been using an old book i bought back in '95 called "Tricks of The Doom Programming Gurus" as a reference and have not been able to find anything regarding these types of tags. Any help you guys can give is greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Epyo]

1-666=When all the Mancubus in the level are dead, open up sectors tagged 666
667=When all the Arachnotrons in the level are dead, raise sector 667 up 8 units
2-correct
3-There are in the ExM8 missions of DooM 1

You can use that "Search Forums" link to find more info on this.

[Cyb]

Actually, tag 666 only works on map07, and tag 667 will only do what Epyo said on map07, on all other maps it raises the door tagged 667 when all commander keen's on the map are dead.

666 also works in e1m8 in a likewise fashion, only you need to kill all the barons on the level rather than the mancubi (mancubuses?)

Also on e2m8 the map will end when all the cyberdemons have been killed (or perhaps just the first one, I dunno) and e3m8 and e4m8 work likewise only with the spider mastermind.

[Fletcher`]

e1m8; tag 666; all barons dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest

e2m8; no tag; all cybies dead = exit level

e3m8; no tag; all spiders dead = exit level

e4m8; tag 666; all spiders dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest

map07; tag 666; all mancubii dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest.
tag 667; all arachnatrons dead = tagged sector raises to texture's height (16 high texture, raise 16; 128 high texture, raise 128)

I think this is about it.

[Kid Airbag]

So the tags can't do anything else, like say, turn the lights off or something?

[maxspeed]

Archvile46 said:

So the tags can't do anything else, like say, turn the lights off or something?

Nope

[Graf Zahl]

ravage said:

e1m8; tag 666; all barons dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest

e2m8; no tag; all cybies dead = exit level

e3m8; no tag; all spiders dead = exit level

e4m8; tag 666; all spiders dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest

map07; tag 666; all mancubii dead = tagged sector lowers to lowest.
tag 667; all arachnatrons dead = tagged sector raises to texture's height (16 high texture, raise 16; 128 high texture, raise 128)

I think this is about it.

There are 2 others:

666 in E4M6: Opens door when all Cyberdemons are dead
666 in any level opens door when all Keens are dead. (Note: It's 666, not 667 as Cyb said!) What may be interesting for mappers: You can use the Keen Dies code pointer with any other monster in DeHackEd and it will work! (But unfortunately not in ZDoom.) Operation Arctic Wolf is using this in one level.

[ReX]

Epyo said:

667=When all the Arachnotrons in the level are dead, raise sector 667 up 8 units

Actually what it does is raise the sector up by the height of the texture on the sector's front lower sidedef, to a maximum of 64. In the case of the original Map07, the relevant front sidedef texture is STEP1, which has a height of 16. Therefore, killing the arachnotrons raises the sector by 16. If you were to replace the STEP1 by, say, MARBFAC1 (which is 128 tall) the sector would only rise up halfway. Likewise, if you replaced the texture with DOOR1 (which has a height of 72) the sector would rise up almost all the way -- just 8 units short.

[boris]

It might actually help to read the posts other people wrote before writing an own one.

[Biffy]

Archvile46 said:

So the tags can't do anything else, like say, turn the lights off or something?

If you are willing to use zdoom features, sure, the tags can do just about anything. For example, I have a pwad for doom2 map01 which contains this in mapinfo:

spidermastermindspecial
specialaction_lowerfloor

The spider demon is spawned at some point in the game. When he's killed, a sector tagged 666 is lowered, allowing a monster to be pushed over a line by a scrolling floor. The line is acs_execute, which then can do anything.

Edit - this probably seems like an odd thing do to, but it was quite a while ago and at that time I'm pretty sure that zdoom did not allow monsters to be spawned and given a tag number at that time, nor did it allow a spawned thing to be given a special. Now, things can be given a TID when spawned and also a special action via thing_setspecial. So, my spider mastermind can simply be assigned an acs_execute, to run when he dies. 666 no longer needed.

[Enjay]

ReX said:

to a maximum of 64. ...If you were to replace the STEP1 by, say, MARBFAC1 (which is 128 tall) the sector would only rise up halfway. Likewise, if you replaced the texture with DOOR1 (which has a height of 72) the sector would rise up almost all the way -- just 8 units short.

Are you sure about that 64 thing? An old version of my NJDoom2 had a special action 667 on map07. The lower tex was one of the ashwalls (ashwall2 I think) and it rose by 128 once all the archnotrons were dead. That was with doom2.exe.

In fact, hang on...

OK, I found a version with a totally different set up, and one that was almost like the one I remember (damn, how many versions did I make?). The one that was almost like the one I remember had the texture "PIPES" on the lower, and certainly rose by 128 when I killed the arachnotrons. That was with doom2.exe

[ReX]

Enjay said:

Are you sure about that 64 thing?

I created a map just this morning to test it out, and sure enough the sector only rose by 64. I tested it with MARBFAC2, GRAY4, DBRAIN, DOOR1, and SHAWN3. I was using DooM2.exe too. I tried it with an all-indoor set of sectors with ceiling height of 128, then again with an all-outdoor set of sectors (i.e., sky ceiling) with ceiling height of 256. The sector only rose by a maximum of 64.

On the other hand, I remember discussions from way back, when people pointed out that the sector would rise by the height of the texture. I don't know how to reconcile these two things.

Btw, on the ZDooM editing forum I asked a question about Thing_TeleportNoFog. If you have a moment would you pop in there and see if you have a solution? Thanks.

[Enjay]

ReX said:

I created a map just this morning to test it out, and sure enough the sector only rose by 64. I tested it with MARBFAC2, GRAY4, DBRAIN, DOOR1, and SHAWN3. I was using DooM2.exe too. I tried it with an all-indoor set of sectors with ceiling height of 128, then again with an all-outdoor set of sectors (i.e., sky ceiling) with ceiling height of 256. The sector only rose by a maximum of 64.

Ack, I knew it wasn't quite as (dead) simple as I described. Couldn't remember why though. I went back and checked my map. The rising platform has "PIPES" on both the front and back of the lower sides. When I removed the back PIPES only, the platform rose by 64. When I replaced the back texture with STEP1, the platform only rose by 16 (or whatever the height of step1 is). So the texture on the second side is important, as in all these tests the front texture was the 128 tall "PIPES". The front textures were always facing out BTW, so were the ones exposed when the platform rose.

Not sure about the Thing_TeleportNoFog direction thing. I'll try some stuff and post if I find anything.

[Tormentor667]

Use ZDoom and forget about this crappy 667/666 thing!

[kristus]

With some trickery you can create Boom voodoo doll scripts using this feature.. just have the 666 sector lower and let the doomguy travel over the linedefs.. strange I haven't seen this already

[Enjay]

Tormentor667 said:

Use ZDoom and forget about this crappy 667/666 thing!

Amen to that. Unlimited actions on killing any monster, group of monsters (whether the same type or not), not just pre-programmed sector actions or level endings. And on any level!

[ReX]

Enjay said:

Amen to that.

I'll be the first one to recommend ZDooM as the .exe of choice for building levels. However, if Deadsmple is new to editing then perhaps it would be better to learn the ropes of editing with DooM.exe or DooM2.exe, then graduate to ZDooM or some other source port. You have to admit that the specials and features available in ZDooM and other source ports can be quite intimidating to the newcomer.

Still, more power to the newbie that decides to tackle a source port first. More immersive, and hopefully enjoyable, levels for us to play!

[Enjay]

Hmmmm... I was just about to post agreeing with you ReX, but then I wondered if Zdoom/Hexen format editing is more intimidating for a newbie, or if it just seems so to an experienced doom editor making the transition.

Yes, there is more to learn in the enhanced mode, but it doesn't all have to be learned or used. A working map can probably be made using no higher skill level than is required for a basic doom map. The experienced editor, however, has to "unlearn what he has learned" (thanks Yoda) and the fact that things aren't where you think they are supposed to be is confusing and frustrating.

eg, lindef activation types. An experienced doom editor *knows* that lindef activation types are tied to the linedef type and expects them to be that way. When you want to lower a floor by walking over a line, you look for a W1 or WR type. I can't count the number of times I have forgotten to set the activation type when editing in ZdoomHexen mode. If you learned Hexen first though then not being able to set the activation type yourself and having it tied in with line type may seem confusing, limiting and illogical.

eg Teleports just make the line type and put a landing in with a number on it that ties in with the line (Hexen). Simple. Or make a line type, then put a landing spot somewhere and tag the sector to the line. Not really any more complex, but perhaps less logical.

And if we are to touch on scripting - first off, it's optional (although inherently tied in with making all the fancy things I mentioned in my other post happen) but who's to say that someone may not be familiar with the skills needed to do some cunning scripting, but not be a mapper?

Frankly, I don't know. I'm just musing really. There can't be too many people who learned Hexen editing until they were totally familiar with it and then made the transition to traditional doom editing, but it would be nice to get that perspective on it.

Ultimately, however, I suspect ReX is right, and this was just a rambling post for no good reason. :-P

[ReX]

Much of what you've said is absolutely true, Nigel. Still, there is an arguably bewildering array of options in a source port, especially when starting from scratch. A simple example is that of a Door_Raise action for a local door. In vanilla DooM you choose a regular or turbo speed, repeatable or not, and method of opening, all in one line. In ZDooM you first have to insert the 3 arguments -- tag number, door speed, and delay before closing. After that you must select the method of opening, and then whether or not the action is repeatable.

Another simple example is for a lift in vanilla DooM -- you pretty much have to decide on fast or turbo, single use or repeatable, and walk or "switch" operated, again all in one line. In ZDooM you can have up to 5 arguments, complex lift functions, plus the repeat & method of activation selections.

Now once you've learned all this, then editing for vanilla DooM becomes child's play. But a newbie would need to go through a period of trial and error before realizing the optimal operation of the various functions.

Having said all this I must point out that learning how to edit with ZDooM or other source ports can be extremely rewarding. But like most other tools that are powerful and versatile, it typically takes longer to learn (and master) such tools than those that aren't as powerful.

[deep]

We should do a "blind" study:)

IMO it's the pure concept that's the trick. Sort of like teaching kids to count. By root they can easily learn to count up to 10 and then just stop dead cold since it was just pure memory at work (no idea of the concept).

I had an interesting teaching experience a while back with a (I think) a 4-5 year old. She was bragging about how high she could count - up to 20. In about 5 minutes I explained how to go over that number and the general rules for naming numbers. 15 minutes later - after some exploration with me giving correction - she shouted "I can count to any number". The whole concept clicked in her brain. Pretty cool experience for both of us.

I'll argue that the HEXEN format is not much of stumbling block. IOW, once the concepts of linedefs<->sector tags are figured out(as well as the general terminology), it all falls into place. The TIDs are just one more "exactly the same" type of assocation.

Similarly the "arguments" help out, not hinder, since the "tag/tid" stuff is thrown right up in the "face" so to speak. IOW, the Hexen format specials force them to think about why that argument is there. Depending on the editor, the fields can be prefilled, so there's not much to do - except of course figure out what tags are. "Teleports", "Doors" and "Lifts" are probably the most common stumbling blocks - not format dependent at all.

In conclusion, well worth the slight increase in learning, since the problem with learning DOOM format first is that then HEXEN format is left at about the same stumbling block level as before. Witness the number of people (including very experienced) reluctant to try ZDOOMHEXEN format because they are comfortable with DOOM editing. The same "wall" exists throughout learning anything "different". So skip as many virtual walls up front if possible:)

[Biffy]

ReX said:

Much of what you've said is absolutely true, Nigel. Still, there is an arguably bewildering array of options in a source port, especially when starting from scratch. A simple example is that of a Door_Raise action for a local door. In vanilla DooM you choose a regular or turbo speed, repeatable or not, and method of opening, all in one line. In ZDooM you first have to insert the 3 arguments -- tag number, door speed, and delay before closing. After that you must select the method of opening, and then whether or not the action is repeatable.
xxxxxx

It worked out easily for me in general, this way: First I learned vanilla Doom editing, got familiar with the simple line features. Then, I ran a wad through zwadconv.exe and looked again at things in the new format. It was pretty much all done for me, I could see what the standard arguments were for lifts, doors and such. These examples immediately cleared some of the mystery, and other examples were not hard to find.

[ReX]

deep said:

IMO it's the pure concept that's the trick. Sort of like teaching kids to count....In conclusion, well worth the slight increase in learning, since the problem with learning DOOM format first is that then HEXEN format is left at about the same stumbling block level as before....The same "wall" exists throughout learning anything "different". So skip as many virtual walls up front if possible

No arguments there at all. In fact it reminds me of when I learned to play the guitar twenty-some years ago. I learned the hard way, with no teacher, no benefit of music theory, and strictly by ear. I improved simply by being dogged and practicing for several hours a day. As time went by and I got interested in music theory I realized how I had approached the whole thing completely wrong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a newcomer would need dedication and patience to go the extra mile that the HeXen format requires. Most newbies are typically eager to build that first map quickly, and perhaps release it. The process could take longer when there's more to learn [or when things are learned the right way ;)].

First I learned vanilla Doom editing, got familiar with the simple line features. Then, I ran a wad through zwadconv.exe and looked again at things in the new format. It was pretty much all done for me, I could see what the standard arguments were for lifts, doors and such. These examples immediately cleared some of the mystery, and other examples were not hard to find.

That's pretty much how I picked up ZDooM editing too, except I kept bugging people on the forums with questions too. Heh.

[toxicfluff]

"go the extra mile that the HeXen format requires" (dunno how to do that quote stuff) Is Zdoom entirely HeXen format now? Sorry if this is a newbie-ish question, but I've only just started my 3rd doom map (although in a pack of 4), and it's 4 years since my last one - and the one before that was just a big box - so I haven't known much on the editing side of things for a while :).

Having decided to build my current project heavily around scripting, I'd have to say I agree with Deep - once you have grasped the concept it all becomes clear. It's all fairly similar stuff (to me anyway), so once you understand one bit you can pretty much grasp the rest too. I would actually say what inhibited me most at the start was tutorials (although I'm also in their debt because I probably wouldn't have started to script without 'em) - they tell you how to do specific effects, and it limits your thinking because you're working off a kind of memorised template which you just adapt to the relevant map.

It is, as ReX said, also really rewarding once you understand it. I would actually say that scripting in doom is the most fun I have had editing any game, and I've chewed my way through quite a few. The flexibility is awesome, I can't think of any other game that you can make a football mod for, or even pong in Darkwolf's case - judging from his screenshots.

I would say, that once you have learned scripting though, the hardest part is thinking of innovative ways of using it :D

Btw, all this is relative to Legacy. I know that Legacy is generally hated around here but I make no apologies because I like it, apart from a few borderline unforgivable bugs :D Plus Zdoom hasn't worked on my computer for ages (screen goes black and the computer hangs) which has left me sobbing after hearing about the TRK (or something) 3057 release and some other cool sounding wads.

Anyway, back to mapping.

[Biffy]

Zdoom is not entirely Hexen format now. It plays original Doom/Doom2 format, original Heretic format, Hexen and combinations of the above. If you are scripting Doom maps, you are using the "zdoom-hexen" format which is so popular.

Zdoom is very Windows compatible so there is some issue which should be relatively easy to clear up. Sound card settings are often a culprit of computer hangs. Start with zdoom -nosound or zdoom -nomusic and see if it's OK. I think other people can help you from there, depending on what happens. You have tried the latest version, the 2-0-42.cab at zdoom.notgod.com/lars?

[toxicfluff]

Well, I got the latest Zdoom about a month ago, but there might have been a new one released, I know that Randy works very fast on the port, I'll go check. Other versions I tried in vain to get working were 1.17c and 1.22. No luck. I'm on Win2k btw. The sound thing sound plausible, I've been having a little trouble with it recently.

Anyway, thanks a lot, I'll reply again if I still have trouble.