Of Magma and Meat (second map)

[Doomax]

Hello doomers!

 

I have just compleated my second map "Of Magma and Meat".  It is a tribute to Doom2 map29 The Living End.

The player has a lot of freedom in choosing which order to tackle the different parts of the map, before facing the finale.

 

This map is gzDoom only, and uses OTEX textures from https://doom.ukiro.com/about-otex/

 

I've reduced monster health a little, taken almost all of the randomness out of damage rolls, and tweaked the player weapons very slightly.  I hope nothing is changed so much that it feels unfamiliar.

 

I'm really trying to learn the craft of level design, so I really want to hear whatever ideas and criticisms people have.

 

I made this map in just under 4 weeks.  I currently seem to be on a schedule of making one map per summer.

 

This is not the greatest map in Doom2, this is just a tribute.

 

*Edit*  Watched one playthough and found some minor things to fix. New version is now attached.

*Edit 2"  New version uploaded!

*Edit 3"  Some changes based on feedback.

 

 

 

 

OfMagmaAndMeat_4.7z

Edited December 2, 2022 by Doomax

[RED77]

That's insane. Great work

[Biodegradable]

Good to see you again, @Doomax! I was hoping you'd return some day.

[Caco Bell]

Hey, haven't yet had the time to play it, but I have to tell you that those screenshots look fantastic - looking firmware to giving it a spin!

[kalensar]

Thumbs up map. Not my cup of tea, but still super pretty. 

[Doomax]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

 

kalensar, looks like you're the only person whos tried to play it so far.  Can I ask what kind of tea you like?

 

I'd love to see a video of a play through is possible.

[Caco Bell]

Hey, so I've played about the 40% of the map. To be honest I think I am going to need to restart it because I really screwed myself up health-wise; I have killed 55 monsters and have not found any of the seven secrets, but that's probably on me. With all the snipers gunning at me it's hard to focus on finding secret goodies, but it seems the map is designed around that :).

 

Anyways the fact that I do want to start again says a lot about the map compelling qualities! The architecture is not only really pretty, but most importantly provides several interesting ways of exploring it and has some intriguing themes. The use of flying monsters and snipers really befits this type of architecture.

 

I will get back to you when I finish the map!

 

Also if you're interested I could link you via PM to some Discord servers in which you could get feedback quite easily :)

[IcarusOfDaggers]

You sure it's your second map? Far more detail than usual seconds I've seen. I'm going to try and record it when i get the time. 

 

Edit @Doomax: Well... this is above my skill level. I only got to the mancubus platform (the one with the imps), before finally getting stuck for good. I just ran out of ammunition and health. I usually play HMP or HNTR, so it's no wonder I got stuck on a map without difficulties.

 

I tried to record it all, but after 3 hours of recording I decided to call it quits. It is going to take way too much time to upload, so sadly no video, this time around.

I'll probably get back to this map one day, but for now, that's another defeat. 

 

That said, the map itself is quite well done. The only thing I actually could point out is that there is some cheese potential with the first 2 cacodemons. You can easly hide behind a corner so that cacodemons don't wake up. dodging the hell knight attacks are a bit tricky, but if you manage to dodge the hell knight attack, then as the mancubus in the starts to shoot, run away and thus wake up cacos, you can get them both to infight the mancubus.

 

Another potential cheese I found are the revenants at the bar. You need chaingun and chaingunner ammunition, but if you shoot past the revenant and hit the mancubus, it will most likely retaliate and shoot back, causing the revenant to get stuck trying to shoot mancubus. I also noticed the cacodemons didn't shoot at all, like they didn't see the player. Made it easy to pick em out 1 by 1.

 

The mancubus at blue key: since they stand in ambush position, if you wait patiently, one of the cacodemons will shoot a mancubus the right side. The mancubus will retaliate, most of the time hitting both the cacodemons, and the hell knight that you hopefully left alive down stairs. This makes it possible to only fight 1 mancubus, while the other one is busy with infighting. 

 

I didn't like the fact that if the radiation suit ran out, you couldn't get out of plasma area when under 20%hp. Had to restart that section many times. But I do think that's just a me problem. 

 

Rest of the levels i relied more on infighting than shooting myself, and I still managed to run out of health and ammunition right before the labyrinth with humans that turns into mancubus cave.  Didn't get past that. 

 

Also, it seems all the monsters have kidney infection or something wrong with their bowels. The amount of blood in their urine was unhealthy to say the least. So if they don't get killed by doomguy, they are doomed to die a painful death anyway.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by IcarusOfDaggers

[Doomax]

@Caco Bell  It might be the case that I got too good at the map during testing and in fact there isn't enough health around for first time players.  That's the sort of thing I probably need to tune.

 

It sounds like you're having the kind of experience that I was aiming for though, so that's good.  Also the fact that you're compelled to give it another go is great news!  I would love to know which areas you found and/or missed.

 

By all means, PM me some discords where I can get feedback.  Feedback is what I'm here for.

[sandwedge]

Hey here's the raw gameplay footage I recorded, hope it's useful.  In general, like with what I said in my weekly Doom review video, I thought it was pretty impressive especially as a second map!  There are so many interesting areas to explore, with all sorts of ramps and things opening up around the edges like some clockwork machine.  While I only did one run I tried to find everything I could, but it looks like there are different ways to reach the centre, which is a pretty cool choice for players to have.  It was definitely a hard level as you'll see with me dying a bunch, but with saves it was manageable.  I will say at some points it could verge on frustration, because there are a lot of very narrow chasms with enemies, and the worst part being the center pillar with mancubi harassing you the entire level.  And you made sure of that when killing them just let in archviles to rez them, LOL.  That was so evil.  So I mean, Ultra Violence is hard and that's not bad with the hardest difficulty, but as lots of people just play that difficulty level by default some of the extremely tight platforming and projectiles coming from all around the arena will be frustrating for some players.  There's also a fine line between fun hard and frustrating hard, and it's different for everyone.  For me, I thought it was a cool challenge to persevere through and the level looked so cool that it motivated me to get to the next part to see it all.

 

I also don't remember everything about the original level but it seems you added a ton to it, and the big setpieces I remembered were done well here.  Great work!

 

 

[Doomax]

@sandwedge  Man I had a blast watching your playthrough!  It's such a rush seeing someone play something I worked so hard on.

 

Right at the start you jumped down onto the path of platforms in the lava.  I imagen in your brain it went something like "this looks like it goes somewhere... wait this doesn't fucking go anywhere!".  The one other player who I've watched play it made the same mistake as you, and that makes me concerned that that part is misleading to the player.
 

I really didn't want people to kill the mancubois in the middle.  One of the main ideas of the map is that you always under pressure when you're in the open, so you need to run and find safe spots. If you can just kill them, that pressure completely disapears.  I'm generally worried that players might not get that idea, and that they will kill the mancubois.  The archviles coming in to res them really hammers that point home.  Hopefully players will get the idea after killing one of them and not kill the others.

 

You actually killed them all at the end!  I've never tried to do that.  I just make a break for the exit after killing the cybers.  It's interesting to see that it's possible!

 

Congrtaz on doing the archvile tower on your first attempt btw!  I'm so worried that bit will piss players off... and no doubt it will some people.  But you have proven that it's possible do it first time blind.

 

I'm so glad you went back at the end to find the secret room with the blue armour.  I would have loved to hear your live commentry when you found that room :) I deliberately didn't post any screenshots of that secret so that it would be more of a special surprise for people who find it.

[sandwedge]

8 hours ago, Doomax said:

@sandwedge  Man I had a blast watching your playthrough!  It's such a rush seeing someone play something I worked so hard on.

 

Right at the start you jumped down onto the path of platforms in the lava.  I imagen in your brain it went something like "this looks like it goes somewhere... wait this doesn't fucking go anywhere!".  The one other player who I've watched play it made the same mistake as you, and that makes me concerned that that part is misleading to the player.
 

I really didn't want people to kill the mancubois in the middle.  One of the main ideas of the map is that you always under pressure when you're in the open, so you need to run and find safe spots. If you can just kill them, that pressure completely disapears.  I'm generally worried that players might not get that idea, and that they will kill the mancubois.  The archviles coming in to res them really hammers that point home.  Hopefully players will get the idea after killing one of them and not kill the others.

 

You actually killed them all at the end!  I've never tried to do that.  I just make a break for the exit after killing the cybers.  It's interesting to see that it's possible!

 

Congrtaz on doing the archvile tower on your first attempt btw!  I'm so worried that bit will piss players off... and no doubt it will some people.  But you have proven that it's possible do it first time blind.

 

I'm so glad you went back at the end to find the secret room with the blue armour.  I would have loved to hear your live commentry when you found that room :) I deliberately didn't post any screenshots of that secret so that it would be more of a special surprise for people who find it.

 

Glad you enjoyed the vid!  Yeah at the beginning it is attractive to jump down and see if those platforms go somewhere, i didn't necessarily think they did but it's a such a thin ledge, it's the beginning of the level and there's teleporters so there's no harm in checking it out.  no worries with the design there imo.

 

Yeah I definitely see you wanted the mancubi to harass the player the whole level, I think that worked well.  It was definitely overwhelming at points, with that to contend with along with all the encounters and often thin ledges.  But when I tried to kill them it just got worse with the archviles!  It seemed rather difficult and annoying to try to kill them and the archviles earlier, and didn't seem worth it to try to subvert the obvious intended design.  I'm guessing once you get a rocket launcher it may be more possible but it would be hard to hit them.  if someone wants to plink away with a chaingun for half an hour that would just be ridiculous, so I wouldn't worry about that.  I think some players may find the mancubi sniper tower frustrating in some areas along the rim, so it's up to you whether you want to make some areas with thin ass ledges easier.

 

I will say that plasma rifle area stood out as the hardest to me somehow, I guess because I didn't have health, it's very cramped, and you take damage in the lava.  Unless I missed something I might consider a bit more health there, but it's possible I didn't equip myself well enough.

 

Yeah the end was cool, it could definitely be a bit of a pain to get the mancubi and archies up there without wasting too many rockets, but I usually like to kill all the monsters I see if it's not ridiculously hard.  So it wasn't too bad.  The ending portal and area is a really cool, comforting ending too, to feel like you're out of that hellscape for good lol, well done on that!

 

And yeah the secrets you had in there were awesome lol, but even some non secret areas.  This map was huge but it had so many cool and lovingly crafted little areas like that, it was a joy to discover them all.  I think that helped me push through a couple areas which felt a bit frustrating, namely dealing with the oppressive mancubus sniper tower in already difficult encounters.  It's possible you could tweak some areas where i had a lot of difficulty but obviously it was doable with some perseverance.

 

Once again great map, was a pleasure playing it!

[Arsinikk]

Hey Doomax!

 

I was able to try this map out on stream!

 

First I'd like to say that the visuals of this map are stunning!

I also quite enjoyed the mechanic of shooting the flesh eyes to change the flesh platforms around the level.

 

I played on UV, and I wouldn't necessarily say the map was hard because of the monster encounters...

For me, I found the SSG locations to be a bit too hidden for my taste, which made 2/3 of my playthrough a bit of a slog.

 

I think that, at least on UV, some extra rockets would make the map a bit better.

Also, I wasn't the biggest fan of the final fight:

Spoiler

I think that the archviles are not very fun to fight from where they are placed... this was compounded by fact that in my playthrough, I simply didn't have enough ammo to dispose of all enemies.

 

You can watch the video here (hopefully I'm not too harsh):

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1537203318?t=04h33m00s

 

[Doomax]

@Arsinikk  Thank you so much for playing my map and explaining your thoughts.  This is exactely what I'm here for.

 

I've watched 4 players now, and there are already some clear lessons to learn.  For a start, ammo and health are too tight, especially in the plasma gun area.

 

There are a number of things that you unfortunately missed the idea on.  I can't blame you for that.  If the mapper needs to expain an idea to the player then the map it's self has failed to communicate the idea properly.

 

First and formost I simply don't care about people who want to get 100%.  I'm aware that it's a speed run catagory in the doom community, it's just not what I'm doing.  I'm trying to learn level design in general, not "doom level" design specifically.  Ultimately I want to make levels in other engines.  This for me is just practice.

 

About the final fight:  The archvile are not meant to be part of the fight at all.  My intention is that the player kills the cybers then escapes though the portal straight away.  I've already become aware of a few problems with this, so I'll probably re-design that final part somewhat.

 

The actual reason those archies are there is to prevent the player from just killing the mancubois as soon as they get enough ammo to do so.  Part of the point of the level is that you're constantly under pressure from them when you're in the open, so the player has to seek cover.  If you can just kill them then that pressure just disappears.  One problem with this whole thing is that over the course of the level the player builds up this hatred for the mancubois, and it's only right that then that the player gets to kill them at the end.  At the moment the map really fails to give the player that experience.

 

I'm so sorry you missed both the super shotguns.  You actually saw one of them right at the start and commented on it, but you didn't make the effort to get in there.  I honestly think part of what happend is down to you not using mouse look, you weren't able to look down and see the way into the cave.  I honestly didn't even think that people would play it without mouse look (although I did make sure all the shootable switches were at the correct height).

 

Last thing, I can only appologise for the archvile in the bottom of the chaingunners building.  He's there as a nasty joke on players who know the original map29 well.  That is where you go to get the plasma gun in map29.  Unfortunately, to anyone who isn't familier with map29 it's just nonsensical.  Even for people who get the joke, it probably isn't worth it.  So it probably just shouldn't be in the map.

 

Thanks again for playing my map.  I feel like I am learning so much.

[Doomax]

@IcarusOfDaggers  Thanks for taking the time to try my map and write such a detailed post!  The map actually does have difficulties implemented, but I admit there is not nearly enough difference between them.

 

I think everyone who's played it at this point has said there is not enough ammo and health, so I definitely need to put more in.  Especially in the plasma gun area.  I might even add a second rad suit on the easier modes.

 

I'm ok with people cheesing some of the demons in the bar area.  If the player is able to come up with a plan to take out monsters without using ammo, then that's cool wiith me.  I had to make some of the windows block monsters sight otherwise the mancs in the middle wouldn't stop firing into the bar area.

 

It sounds to me like you went left at the start and tried to brute force your way all the way round the map.  My hope was that players would go right a bit, get the SSG, then try the left (meaty) route, get the chaingun, and then kind of alternate working their way up either side.  But it seems that players just want to choose a direction and push that way no matter how hard it gets. :\

 

If you do come back to the map at any point, I should hopefully have uploaded a new version that fixes some of the biggest issues by then.

[IcarusOfDaggers]

10 hours ago, Doomax said:

@IcarusOfDaggers  Thanks for taking the time to try my map and write such a detailed post!  The map actually does have difficulties implemented, but I admit there is not nearly enough difference between them.

 

 

It may be. Sometimes it's not even about ammunition, but about monster composition. For HMP, I felt the monster composition was okay, and so was ammunition, however, I found the health lacking. Then again, i relied a lot on infighting as opposed to running and gunning. 

10 hours ago, Doomax said:

I think everyone who's played it at this point has said there is not enough ammo and health, so I definitely need to put more in.  Especially in the plasma gun area.  I might even add a second rad suit on the easier modes.

 

Yhea I found ammunition only starting to run out after the arch vile elevator. That was a siginifcant difficulty spike, followed by a significant difficulty drop right after that. It was unique, but it also meant that there was nothing left of the megasphere after I finished with arch viles. And I also lacked ammunition for the next area. I believe a few shotgun shells is more than enough for HMP, but that's my opinion. 

 

Rad suit wise, yhea, on easy, second rad suit at the caco closet may be a usable idea, but I'd add some health instead on medium and hard difficulty. At least that way, you still have to worry about killing the cacos, before getting the rewards, and you have to worry about lava and damage when going for last switch, and maintain platforming instead of just running over lava.

 

10 hours ago, Doomax said:

I'm ok with people cheesing some of the demons in the bar area.  If the player is able to come up with a plan to take out monsters without using ammo, then that's cool wiith me.  I had to make some of the windows block monsters sight otherwise the mancs in the middle wouldn't stop firing into the bar area.

 

There may be another way.  I'm not sure what format you are using. But you can make small poles  that match the size of the middle texture bars. That way, even if mancubus fires a shot, it won't get through most of the time. (Mancubus fireballs can clip thanks to their speed), but cacodemon shot is more likely to get through, if it appears.

 

10 hours ago, Doomax said:

ried to brute force your way all the way round the map.  My hope was that players would go right a bit, get the SSG, then try the left (meaty) route, get the chaingun, and then kind of alternate working their way up either side.  But it seems that players just want to choose a direction and push that way no matter how hard it gets. :\

 

Close enough, but not exactly.

 

I let the chaingunner clear the hitscan while i took the shotgun and ssg, then took the chaingun by sniping with a pistol, and after that kept pushing left, since right side I always had cacos I could use for something, be it meatshields from chaingunners if I got lucky, or killing the 2 mancubus so that I could take down both arch viles in the center platform. I was out of rocket, but I didn't need them so much as everything was done with SSG or chaingun, only using plasma at pain elementals.

[Doomax]

I have updated the first post with a new version!

 

I've addressed most all of the problems that have come up.  The final section has been reworked, the SSG area is much harder to miss, and there are more resources in the areas where people were starving before.

 

If you've been thinking of playing the map, or re-playing it, now is a good time!

[LVENdead]

Per special request, gave this map a run and think it's a great effort for a second map. It's got quite a lot going on and mostly finds its stride - a good majority of what I take issue with are things well beyond fundamentals. As an homage to The Living End, it manages to be its own thing while still evoking nostalgia for the original Doom 2 map, and as its own map it has more than its share of interesting tricks to stand out on its own. 
 

You seem very invested in the creative process and honing your skill, and you've already got the makings of an astute mapper with a lot of potential. I'm very interested to see what you come up with next!

 

Here's a video of my playthrough:

 

 

[Doomax]

@LVENdead  First of all, thanks so much for your video!

 

Of all of the people who I've seen play the map, you're the first one to have gone the meaty way.  Every other person went left at the start towards the demon bar, then clockwise round the map.  Because of that this is the first real feedback I've had on the resources balance in the meaty direction.

 

I designed the map so that it could be played either way round, which is why some of the progression is a little weird when you're going back down the other side.  Ideally I was hoping that players would probe back and forth between the two side to get resources before commiting to a direction, and that's actually when you ended up doing to an extent.

 

There is a second SSG that you did miss on the meaty side, just before the blood garden.  You were actually staring at it for a couple of minutes around 16:40 while giving a monologe about texturing.  My goal with that bit was to make sure that players had the SSG before the blood garden in case the didn't get the one on the other side of the map.  I really thought that people would look through the window and see the SSG + armour and climb round to get it.

 

Another secret you narrowly missed was in the book case, it looked like you were trying to press the bright yellow book but just humped either side of it.  I do want people to find the secrets.  It's really hard to know how obvious to make them.

 

At the start of the video you said you hoped you'd get to crush the mancubois later.  That made me happy because that is how it works.  How do you crush them?  With moving meat of corse!  There are some eyes to shoot after you fight the cybers.

 

This really is teaching me the value of feedback.  Much of what you said hit home.  In particular the idea of "kill your darlings" from writing.  I put a lot of pretty gnarly ideas into this map, like the unkillable mancs in the middle, the delay on getting the rocket lancher, the silent teleporters in the trees and most of all the fact that it can be played either clockwise or anticlockwise.  But, I don't regret releasing the map with those ideas implemented in full.  I'd rather see how people react to an idea in it's raw form rather than reel it in before it sees the light of day.  I'll get more information about what works this way.

 

I might go back and make some changes based on your feedback.

 

Just a quick note about texture alignment and border textures.  Some parts of the map are well crafted like the demon bar and toilets, other parts are very rough like most of the rock.  I see this map as a learning piece rather than a portfolio piece if that makes sence.  So as long as I know I can make well crafted areas for now I'm happy to have much of the map look scuffed.  The main purpose is for me to be able to express ideas quickly and iterate on them.  If I was to finalise this map to be part of a bigger project I would tighten it all up.