[dev thread, final version out, don't post here thank] Devious Deviance - An MBF21-compatible CP where we implement difficulty settings differently

[MFG38]

@Dr. Zin I'll be entirely honest with you: I'm not sure how to feel about this map. Usually I can confidently say whether I like or dislike a map, but in this particular case, I'm so torn that I can't even say I lean towards one or the other. It's a map that's pretty awesome in some aspects and not-so-awesome in others.

 

I'll start with the positives. I really like the idea of teleporting the player to a different location from where they start the adventure. With the different starting weapon given on each difficulty as well, it has the potential to drastically change how they decide to approach the map and create some interesting dynamics in the combat. The visuals are pretty cool too, with the temple/techbase mix that you've got going. It's an interesting aesthetic choice and not one I've seen very often.

 

And then the problems. The most critical one is that there aren't enough weapons in the map. What I mean by that is with the non-linear nature of the map, the way how each weapon is (mostly) only available at one specific location isn't exactly ideal, and it really hurts the gameplay. Some extra SSGs and chainguns at key locations at the very least - ideally even some rocket launchers, given how I never found it in my test runs - definitely wouldn't go amiss. While I can appreciate a map of this level of non-linearity, the gameplay seriously suffers from the lack of weapons, especially when you consider the fact that the player can basically grab the red key, press the switch behind the red door and exit the map, missing about half of it if they know where they're going. It makes the map feel like only one very specific route is actually incentivized when the layout presents lots of opportunities for approaching the map in different ways, but those opportunities are grossly underrepresented, due in part to the lack of weapons. If the player's loadout is inadequate, it can end up screwing them over.

 

None of this is to say that your map is rejected or that I hate it. I just think it could use some improvements in the gameplay department. But then, that's only my opinion. If anyone - including you - has a different one, or if they or you think I'm misunderstanding the point of the map, I'll happily hear it.

[Dr. Zin]

No worries, this is the exact kind of critique I was looking for. I had some concerns about weapon placement when putting together the map, but it was hard to determine if the effect I was going for was achieved* since I know where all of the items/weapons are.  I assume getting the chaingun on HNTR isn't too much of an issue since all of the nearby areas have Chaingunners (and the player starts with an SSG) and HMP starts with a CG, so I'll make one more accessible on UV (probably replacing the Revenant at that entrance to the building with a Chaingunner). One thing I did want to capture on UV was the player not having ranged weapons at the start and having to run from the initial group of enemies, but I agree that it is probably best for the player to get access to a gun before they get to the first fork in the path.

 

I'm also going to tweak the placement of east SSG to a more central and visible location and add a third one somewhere else, so the player has more options on HMP and UV. Also, I think I have an idea to make it more obvious where the rocket launcher is from the nukage area, and will see if I can add another way to get up into the rocket launcher area from below. Of course there a are couple other tweaks I thought of after submitting the beta version, and I'll try to get a revised version posted by the end of this weekend.

 

*The first concern for the player should be finding weapons to take on the red key and exit fights, but the weapons should neither be frustratingly difficult to locate nor so trivial to acquire that whatever choices in exploration the player takes are meaningless.

[alexsa2015sa]

@MFG38 Are you still accepting sign-ups? I uhh, again forgot that I made a map for this because of stuff and all.

Spoiler

cp_dd_alexsa2015sa_blastedblaze_v1.zip.

Map name: "Blasted Blaze"
Author: alexsa2015sa
Play time: 20-30 minutes, 369 monsters
Music: "Sunburn Sear" (by me, myself and I)
Difficulty settings: implemented

Description: A complex of fiery marble where demons entertain themselves by fighting each other. Follow the route through their arenas to reach the heart of the maze and shut down the rampant resurrection rituals carried out by four skinny guys, because enough is enough.

Notes:
The difficulties are achieved through absurdly over-emphasized equipment changes. I chose to not use voodoo, here.
I considered completely overhauling the UV route to counter-clockwise or even opening the entire map, but a) the frontloaded difficulty is not as fun here so b) the reworks involved will likely cost me longer than the map itself did.
The obligatory "obtuse puzzle warning" applies.

 

I also played through other submissions so I also bring some unsolicited feedback, if anyone wants any. Either way, I enjoyed these constraints as a concept and for some things it definitely works better than just flooding maps with more hellspawn (says me submitting 369 more monsters)

Spoiler

@RED77 FlukeyMalarkey:
I liked the map, it is short and sweet, I haven't noticed bugs, and every monster and route here counts. I don't really have much to comment here, which makes it an odd one out. No, really, I did not mind even the hitscanners in this map, which is a surprise in itself. I probably should replay it since I can't believe I actually found no irrelevant issues to whine about; worst case I get 15 more minutes of nice Dooming.

 

@Ravendesk Icarus mkII:
I hate platforming in Doom engine games without a native jump. There, I said it, moving on.
- HNTR forgets to kill off the archvile jumper (the voodoo linedef and sector appear missing for whatever reason)
- PALC doors to the final fight are not lower unpegged. This is the only door in the level too.

The actual main level's welcome fight is pretty challenging on UV, as the differences in tiny stairs make quite an impact. I am mixed on chaingunners pillars lowering there as it removes some cover from the archvile.
The archvile double-switch platform is in my opinion the single highest-effort fight of all submissions so far, for a player. Immortal archviles are very oppressive in this tiny space which floods with monsters. When using rockets the margin of error on HNTR isn't that much better than UV, but at least I can do that without saves.

The following two fights, while also non-trivial, hardly come close. A tightrope room does have a surprisingly subtle but powerful difficulty modifier applied: damaging floor. Have I said I hate platforming yet?
The secret fight felt silly to play through. It requires a very high platforming skill to run through without falling off before archviles are dead, the assorted hellknights require killing regardless for an UV max and anyone sensible will just stand and rocket from distance until everything dies rather than risk these tiny ice tightropes at which points archviles... die. Really not sure what this fight was supposed to be about, but I clearly don't get it. Especially since HNTR and HMP lure you in with not revealing archviles quickly, which manages to make it far more deadly for those who do risk the icy floors.
The final slaughter's primary goal is all about killing archviles quickly and executing surviving cyberdemons after things calm down. Really, you don't have to do anything but run away until they die. If anything, HNTR is harder since it demands you kill things or you are cornered for certain. On UV, cyberdemons appear so early you needn't worry about this at all; just dodge the rockets and everything dies.

Now that I think about it three of the maps already feature very similar setup of "crowd and cyberdemons killing it" and this makes these three maps' finale surprisingly repetitive. In my biased opinion this arena is the least interesting of three, all in all, especially since blind run doesn't know what is the archvile spawn order and there are limited chances of survival if you fail to BFG them properly, with minimal cover that ends up demon-infested anyways. For a blind run, you could add something to notify player of arriving archviles, similar to blood-coloring floor in the center, or something.

 

@SCF Agnosia:

Overall very nice.

I don't really have much to say about early section: every geometry change feels impactful and there is no hitscan hell. The only area which seems to lack many changes is the hellknight hall; I only noticed him turreted on HNTR and everything else seems the same.

The yellow key fight is somewhat claustrophobic on HNTR; this can end badly if the shotgun isn't used. There isn't really any reason to use up rockets on low-tiers, anyways.

On another "hilariously painful if unintentional" note: if you miss the SSG while hitting the switch on higher than HNTR, it remains upstairs. Whoopsie.
I struggled more with the blue key fight than the red key one since it relies on aspects of gameplay I am worse at, and the HNTR felt differently hard than the UV. On HNTR you only get a third of space without cover that is just large enough for homing fireballs to start working: the side passages are a trap if anything cuts off the exit and early this happens easily. HMP I found definitely the easiest, since many revenants who are threatening otherwise are merely turrets (they are mediocre at it) and you get full arena to run around, no questions asked; the arena is still big enough to avoid archviles easily and lacks cover for the central space. Ironically, the HNTR setup protects *archviles* and denies full arena circling more than it protects *from* archviles who control everything they see without a way to snipe them safely - you can't circlestrafe and shoot into center like HMP. UV is probably still the most difficult, but RNG infighting can help unexpectedly.
For red key, so long as your rockets and footwork allow to avoid dying until two adjacent platforms lower, the fight is a relaxing "crowd and cyberdemon" arena. Having replayed it anew, the arena foreknowledge is definitely a bit too important here; I managed to die on HNTR when I strafed into opening cyberdemon pen while circling pinkies. Whoopsie.

 

@Salmon Estuary Shrine:

You can pacifist the whole lot of things up until blue key trap, which is always nice in my book. The trap is well-functional because it actually forces you to shoot pinkies or die, without a contorted G-line used in the map, and the archvile ends up being very on point if not killed previously.
The megasphere/RL fight is pretty interesting, too, and you probably want it for the blue key, but the sight angles allow some cheese with revenants. Some, not much; you are still relying on other hellspawn ignoring you for awhile.
The red key fight is scary with its mass mancubus opening. But despite the "crowd and cyberdemon" setup being of a more player-involved variety, still very few things require actual shooting here despite cyberdemon dying to infighting. Only pain elementals, archviles and chaingunners qualify; everything can be circlestrafed with no ammo spent. I still liked it, since it doesn't allow glaring mistakes without punishing overly by a revenant ball on the ground (they are mediocre turrets, again).
I also spent five minutes searching for the exit on my first completed run - it is surprisingly easy to miss the side passage and jump down to the starting area if you never noticed the exit building previously. As little as turning the player to see it will ensure nobody misses it; it's not like there is a hot start to worry about. Still, this one's on me rather than anything.

 

@Dr. Zin Plane of Eden:

I liked the idea of the map. I very much did not like how it was implemented (edit: on the first try only; I actually like the map now that I know where things are) - the beta is awful to blind run, in particular. I'll skip beating the dead horse much as MFG38 already agreed with my own view on the weapon issue: my first UV run spent running like a headless chicken I aborted once I figured out I'm not finding even a shotgun anytime soon and everything broke loose at xx/50/50/300 in the red key room. Later I figured out I managed the route to avoid any and all other weapons or armor while also lowering BFG and picking the blue key; running away is how I reached the red key after. The vast space is beyond forgiving for most projectile dodging outside ambush arenas and mass spawns, but weapons (and to a lesser extent health/armor) are a concern seeing as there are chaingunners, formers and pain elementals in many places.

Ironically, UV is marginally easier than HMP because you can berserk punch other stuff without any regard for bullets... as long as you care to. As a result of the berserk pack placed so far away, running out of ammo before a player figures out where the other SSG is (took two runs) or any armor is (chaingunners on 12% are fun) or the RL is (took four runs)... well, dead horse's dead. Incidentally, it took longer to find out where the button for the first SSG is than it was to access the BFG. The lift blends into environment, and I think it was one of the only two too?

Unmarked impassable windows are mildly annoying, in particular since I remember finding one which wasn't (one of those opposite the exit, i think?..) and fell out unexpectedly down below into imps. The environment feels more natural without, but still, I personally prefer knowing which player-high hole is actually a glass wall without trial-and-error.

 

 

[Ravendesk]

3 minutes ago, alexsa2015sa said:

I also played through other submissions so I also bring some unsolicited feedback, if anyone wants any. Either way, I enjoyed these constraints as a concept and for some things it definitely works better than just flooding maps with more hellspawn (says me submitting 369 more monsters)

The way you managed to cheese the secret fight is definitely a bug, I forgot to lower certain parts of the walls. The intended way to do it is by going forwards faster than AVs open, yeah. Will fix that and the rest of the problems you have found :) Will also look through the inconsistent changes in difficulty settings. Thanks a lot for the playthrough and the feedback!

 

[MFG38]

12 minutes ago, alexsa2015sa said:

@MFG38 Are you still accepting sign-ups? I uhh, again forgot that I made a map for this because of stuff and all.

 

Still accepting sign-ups, yeah. I'll give your map a spin as soon as I can.

[Salmon]

@alexsa2015sa, thanks for the detailed feedback.  The revs in the RL area being on ambush was a sacrifice for visual effect since I didn't want enclosed closets there.  Not being forced to shoot often in the RK area was intentional--I'm an average player and I design all of my maps so that I can do saveless runs of them for balancing purposes.  This usually means I design fights where good movement and positioning are most important and outright lethal threats are kind of minimized.  It's something for me to think about as I work on improving though, so I appreciate you pointing that out.

 

I find struggling to locate the exit frustrating as a player so I've made some changes there.  Thanks for taking the time to test and comment.

 

Download - Estuary Shrine v3

 

Changes:
- Player start location adjusted to show view of exit
- Added more visual indications of the exit after the RK area

[Ravendesk]

Updated my map.

Download link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QBqSCvN5R8lUAL9oCmy6-zkftFEV-uBL/view?usp=sharing

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

- Fixed the possibility to cheese the secret fight by staying at the starting arena

- Added a few cacos and pain elementals to the final fight - I think that achieved exactly what the fight lacked, UV got more punch and HNTR is now actually a lot easier than HMP and UV due to it having much more space to move because of slower teleporters

- The front side of the platforms with chaingunners in the first fight of the main area now don't lower on HMP and HNTR, providing almost the same cover from the archvile as UV does

- Added visual cue to show where archviles would appear in the final fight

- Made a few platforms in the starting sections slightly bigger (on UV as well) to make platforming a bit more forgiving

- Fixed a few bugs I found myself, the ways to accidentally skip some linedefs, etc.

- Added just a little more cells on HMP and HNTR to make the difficulty progression more pronounced

 

@alexsa2015sa

Can you please tell, on which port and on which settings you have encountered this issue?

Quote

 

- HNTR forgets to kill off the archvile jumper (the voodoo linedef and sector appear missing for whatever reason)

 

Because it works fine for me in dsda-doom -complevel 21 on all difficulties, cannot really reproduce it.

[MFG38]

Alright, here's my own map (finally).

Map name: Temple of Steel
Author: MFG38
Play time: 10-15 minutes
Music: "Behemoth" by myself
Difficulty settings: yep

Description: Map title says it all. May or may not have been inspired by a Sunder map.

Notes: With the difficulties, I decided to change the route you take through the key door areas.
I realized just now playtesting the map that you can basically skip the "final" area of each route,
though you obviously won't want to if 100% kills are desired. Ammo and health also changes across
the difficulties, namely with HNTR and HMP having a few extra Soul-/Megaspheres as opposed to UV.

mfg_ddevian.zip

[Dr. Zin]

Here's my updated submission. Changes include:

-Fixing a bunch of texture misalignments
-Replaced revenant at UV entrance into the fortress with a chaingunner

-Adding a third SSG visible from the HMP starting area
-Making a rocket launcher visible from the nukage hall to direct players towards the RL area
-Added another route to access the RL area from the BFG room

-Moved the switch for the west SSG to the ground level near its tower

-Changed the original west SSG switch to open another secret

-Added additional health and ammo across the map

-Fixed all windows that should have been blocking but weren't (that I could find)

-Reduced the number of revenants and added demons to the revenant pen for the final battle

-Added an additional green armor near the HMP start

 

...among others. Since Saturday is the due date consider this my submission, though if additional bugs are found or more gameplay changes are needed I'm willing to modify it.

 

Spoiler

Map name: Upon the plane of Eden

Author: Dr. Zin

Play time: 30 minutes?

Music: "Short Circuit" by Sam 'Metabolist' Woodman (originally used in Hell Revealed 2)

Difficulty settings: Monster and item placements remain the same between difficulties. Depending on the difficulty chosen the player gets a different starting weapon and warps into a different quadrant of the map: HNTR starts with SSG in the west; HMP with chaingun in the south, UV with berserk in the east.

Description: This map is a brick fortress floating in space. Progression is nonlinear, and only the red key is needed to exit. A major part of the game play is locating and acquiring weapons, with UV not being given a ranged weapon to start. The action is intended to be run and gun, using high powered weapons to take down medium monsters.

Notes: This map should use the sky "OSKY33" from OTEX.

 

ZinDevDevSubmit.zip

[knifeworld]

Just popping in to say I'm not dead and neither is my map, which is 99.999999% done (there's just some dumb bugs left to fix).
I've been concentrating on IRL stuff, and on getting my map for the 2 Monster project out of the door (done now).

[MFG38]

46 hours and 59 minutes remain!

[PinkFlamingo]

Unfortunately, I'm going to give up my map. I won't be able to finish it. :-/ I'm simply not satisfied with what I have so far and I don't see that changing over the weekend or even next week.

 

I did have a lot of fun trying to design interesting layouts and encounters though. I feel like I learned a lot about combat design and how difficulty can be implemented in more interesting ways rather than just adding/replacing a few monsters. In the end, I think this experience will have a positive effect on future maps I build.

[knifeworld]

Here's a functionally complete version of my map with difficulty settings and all lifts (and different teleport timings and destinations, mostly) working as intended:
KW_DeviousDeviance 230922 2131.zip

Map name: The Refinery
Author: knifeworld
Play time: should be less than 10 or 15 minutes!
Music: 'Ominous Wind', by Varis Alpha, from the Heretic wad "The Wayfarer".
Difficulty settings: YES, may need changes on the lowest setting, UV is different in where and when stuff teleports in, ITYTD and HMP should be the same (for now).
Description: "Flesh-based oil refinery in a distant star system".
Notes: Slightly rushed development of the final 2 areas due to other projects and IRL stuff, but I've made sure everything at least works correctly, and I'm majority pleased with the map!

Screenos:

Spoiler

 

[MFG38]

~~~ TIME IS UP! ~~~

 

Thanks to everyone who expressed interest in this community project, and in particular everyone who submitted maps. I'll play the rest of the submissions that haven't gotten my feedback yet (of which there are only 2, I believe) as soon as I can. Participating mappers will have about a week to update their maps if needed before I start compiling the final set - I'll let y'all know when the compilation process starts. If all goes well, I'll publish a public beta version around mid-October.

 

Stay tuned!

[Salmon]

Thanks to @MFG38 for running the project.  The concept was fun to play around with and I feel like I learned a lot from the experience.  I think having a smaller set will make people more likely to play the maps on different difficulties to see the changes, too, so that might end up being a positive.  I'm looking forward to playing through the compilation.

[Dr. Zin]

Another thanks to @MFG38, the limitation was very interesting and from cursory perusal of my fellow contributor's maps there was a lot of creativity and quality work. I can't wait to see what order MFG puts the maps in the compiled set.

[MFG38]

Alright, feedback time.

 

@alexsa2015sa This is another map that I feel quite torn about. You've definitely got some interesting concepts going here gameplay-wise, and the visuals are overall pretty good. The custom MIDI too is an interesting listen and serves the whimsical nature of the map well. Ammo is a tiny bit too tight across the board, though - I found myself regularly running low on (or, at worst, completely out of) ammo for all of my weapons across all of my runs. I also didn't entirely understand the puzzle with raising the little lava platform to progress out of the area with the three colored switches. If at all possible, I'd look into clarifying it somewhat as to what each switch does. Only critical bug I caught was a missing texture and softlock here (see spoiler below):

Spoiler

 

@knifeworld Now this is an awesome map! Absolutely loved the visual style, with the Hell/tech mix that you've got going. Also enjoyed the gameplay a surprising amount, given my usual dislike of slaughter gameplay, but then again, the abundance of resources helped with that. About my only criticism regards the placement of the BFGs - I'd look into changing those up, as it's possible to miss both of them entirely. The route to the first BFG with the switch that lowers the two pillars can be ignored, and the player can also completely miss the ledge with the second one on it with enough running speed. On my HNTR run, I accidentally threw myself down into the final area without landing on it, which consequently made the fight in said area harder than perhaps intended as well. Didn't catch any bugs.

[knifeworld]

9 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Alright, feedback time.

 

@alexsa2015sa This is another map that I feel quite torn about. You've definitely got some interesting concepts going here gameplay-wise, and the visuals are overall pretty good. The custom MIDI too is an interesting listen and serves the whimsical nature of the map well. Ammo is a tiny bit too tight across the board, though - I found myself regularly running low on (or, at worst, completely out of) ammo for all of my weapons across all of my runs. I also didn't entirely understand the puzzle with raising the little lava platform to progress out of the area with the three colored switches. If at all possible, I'd look into clarifying it somewhat as to what each switch does. Only critical bug I caught was a missing texture and softlock here (see spoiler below):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

@knifeworld Now this is an awesome map! Absolutely loved the visual style, with the Hell/tech mix that you've got going. Also enjoyed the gameplay a surprising amount, given my usual dislike of slaughter gameplay, but then again, the abundance of resources helped with that. About my only criticism regards the placement of the BFGs - I'd look into changing those up, as it's possible to miss both of them entirely. The route to the first BFG with the switch that lowers the two pillars can be ignored, and the player can also completely miss the ledge with the second one on it with enough running speed. On my HNTR run, I accidentally threw myself down into the final area without landing on it, which consequently made the fight in said area harder than perhaps intended as well. Didn't catch any bugs.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the map and the midi choice.
I checked all difficulties and the editor but only found 1 BFG:

I can definitely make the BFG easier to noticea and grab, and improve the visibility of the pillar with megasphere and cells on it too.

I noticed an AV getting stuck inside a rock pillar during some more testing so I'll fix that up.
I'll also include 1 or 2 teleport/fight dynamic changes for the first room, since I initially didn't add any until the main cave area.

[MFG38]

15 hours ago, knifeworld said:

I checked all difficulties and the editor but only found 1 BFG

 

My bad then, either my eyes or my memory deceived me. Or maybe both. :P

[alexsa2015sa]

On 9/25/2022 at 3:08 PM, MFG38 said:

Alright, feedback time.

 

@alexsa2015sa This is another map that I feel quite torn about. You've definitely got some interesting concepts going here gameplay-wise, and the visuals are overall pretty good. The custom MIDI too is an interesting listen and serves the whimsical nature of the map well. Ammo is a tiny bit too tight across the board, though - I found myself regularly running low on (or, at worst, completely out of) ammo for all of my weapons across all of my runs. I also didn't entirely understand the puzzle with raising the little lava platform to progress out of the area with the three colored switches. If at all possible, I'd look into clarifying it somewhat as to what each switch does. Only critical bug I caught was a missing texture and softlock here (see spoiler below):

Here's update of my map

cp_dd_alexsa2015sa_blastedblaze_v2.zip

- Some amounts of ammo added everywhere up until seventh arena.
A small note on this: Ammo shortages were the intent; I dislike exiting the maps on continuous with full backpack and the lack of archviles amid corpse piles until the very end ensures I can be quite strict about it without breaking the fun. Still, current settings for especially HMP/HNTR are perhaps tighter for the first non-slaughter arenas than I actually intended; without secrets and infighting about 10-20% ammo wasted ensures the outcome. The dark maze was intended to be ammo-scarce (ammonazi table entry "34 demons" reads as "berserk fist", which uhh, means a LOT of ammo wasted if you do not) but there should be enough ammo after; I added 32 shells in the maze on UV if I recall correctly.

- The softlock is a result of sequence break alone, it is impossible with normal flow. Fixed anyways, the other pit can be exited so why not this.
- Cleaned up the puzzle switches and made illustrated pillars more helpful. Also discovered that nope, it isn't translatable to voodoo without completely rewiring the logic; the setup as is does not work without at least one more tag used. Still, tell me if it's not informational enough; there is only so much telepathy I can do over internet.

General note on the map: I'm still not happy about all difficulties using the same route, but I am short on time and patience to properly reroute the flows - it will take me several days to move my countless linedef triggers into voodoo format and ensure I break nothing in the process. I'm still likely to do so but in a few months' time, when I'm less swamped with everything; the map as-is criminally underuses its potential routes.

---

Also, some feedback on your Temple of Steel:

- On the plus side: the map is incredibly easy to pacifist your way through and every room is far easier if you do.
- In particular red door section blocks the zombiemen and the archvile in half the room. That's sort of fine for going back from the lift - I'd hate to earn a point-blank archvile and hitscanner crowd. The space denied can easily be abused to kill them, but every encounter in the map is completely optional anyways... Just the only one which really stood out.
- Playing the map as intended, it is a nice little slaughter-ish map with many harmless imps involved. There is nothing overly taxing involved; infighting kills quite a bit of enemies, especially with cyberdemons, and even these only pose a danger due to rockets more than anything.
- The yellow door pillar platforming section felt odd. It's okay at setting mood and is lethal to mistakes, but... is it really all there is to it? Just platforming? There doesn't seem to be any secrets involved, even.
- The metal gap separating halls in platforming section is a softlock if you fall in.

 

@knifeworld

Feedback on The Refinery:
- Entire level can be done pacifist. That's not a minus, but notable in that the entire first half is alerted and there is so little pressure you can do this anyways, with no saves involved. (On the other hand, I'll not tell you how many saves over how long it took to pacifist clear everything because I didn't write down the results or a demo, but it was one long rocket dodging exercise. I suck at consistently dodging rockets, including my own ones)
- The exit is non-obvious if you have not seen such a setup befpre. It is unmarked and figuring out the raising lift is not intuitive either, because it is not visible on your way in if you rush past. I spent quite awhile running around until I noticed the raised lift and questioned why is this texture something I remember not being there. Add an EXIT texture somewhere visible, maybe?
- The progression is also cheesed easily; not only the first half of the second section appears unnecessary altogether, you can skip the entire second half by careful jumping down. I easily completed the map in 1: 56 while shooting nothing but first switch and spending ~10 seconds in the second half.
- I couldn't figure out a use for the blue key or even any triggers but the trap of the room. It just... is.
- There seems to be no way to go back to the first section of the level whatsoever. No, inaccessible teleport isn't it.

 

On 9/18/2022 at 10:42 PM, Ravendesk said:

...

@alexsa2015sa

Can you please tell, on which port and on which settings you have encountered this issue?

Because it works fine for me in dsda-doom -complevel 21 on all difficulties, cannot really reproduce it.

My bad, I didn't notice the linedef responsible being elsewhere entirely. Shows what you miss when sleep-deprived and not confirming findings in the editor.

 

General note on the project: I had a blast playing through all the submissions, especially the ones which worked with layouts alone. There is something to be said for stealing other peoples' ideas, since some tricks I've never considered before are pretty neat and I'll probably use them in the future.

[knifeworld]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:03 PM, alexsa2015sa said:

 

@knifeworld

 

Feedback on The Refinery:
-- snipped into quotes --

 

Quote

- Entire level can be done pacifist. That's not a minus, but notable in that the entire first half is alerted and there is so little pressure you can do this anyways, with no saves involved. (On the other hand, I'll not tell you how many saves over how long it took to pacifist clear everything because I didn't write down the results or a demo, but it was one long rocket dodging exercise. I suck at consistently dodging rockets, including my own ones)

Noticed a cave jump skip right onto the oil platforms that lead to the exit, and how easy it was to run past many of the monsters after the initial upload, fixed now.
 

Quote

- The exit is non-obvious if you have not seen such a setup befpre. It is unmarked and figuring out the raising lift is not intuitive either, because it is not visible on your way in if you rush past. I spent quite awhile running around until I noticed the raised lift and questioned why is this texture something I remember not being there. Add an EXIT texture somewhere visible, maybe?

Personally I think it's clear in the sense that there's nothing else in the room and the only switch in there is colour coded with green shawn just like the bird shaped lift.
But you're right that the lift initially isn't very visible if you just run in, I've raised it a bit and added a more typical lift texture to parts of it.
I have also added a sign to show the switch makes the exit accessible, although by the point you're able to hit that switch everything is dead which I felt showed you were at the end of the map, but it's no big deal adding a sign.
 

Quote

- The progression is also cheesed easily; not only the first half of the second section appears unnecessary altogether, you can skip the entire second half by careful jumping down. I easily completed the map in 1: 56 while shooting nothing but first switch and spending ~10 seconds in the second half.

You're forced to do the Blue Key lock-in fight to progress now as originally intended, I forgot to add a blue door back into the final cave passage after I finished making the finale room.
 

Quote

- I couldn't figure out a use for the blue key or even any triggers but the trap of the room. It just... is.

Fixed as I mentioned above, with some added skeletal and meat danger teleporting in once you grab the key.
 

Quote

- There seems to be no way to go back to the first section of the level whatsoever. No, inaccessible teleport isn't it.

A lift now becomes available after grabbing the Blue key, allowing you to jump back into the teleport you arrived in.


Changes:
-blue door added back in.
-progression cheeses / skips are now patched out or made way harder.
-ambush only monsters that made areas too easy now wake up normally.
-most teleport closets improved after furious double triple quadruple checking.

-BFG and megaarmor are now more visible and take less time to lower.
-some finishing touches to fight balancing.
-some texture and sky transfer borks are fixed.


Update download: KW_DeviousDeviance 30092022-0426.zip


Thanks for testing!! @alexsa2015sa @MFG38

[Dr. Zin]

Here's a last minute update to my map. It's mostly some small visual fixes (misaligned textures, fixing cutoff textures, adding breaks between different textures on the same surface) and a couple of subtle modifications to map geometry to make it less likely to get hung up on certain points, plus I added some minor health and ammo pickups in a couple spots.

 

EDIT: Goddamnit, checked the map again in DSDA Doom and found a bunch of Zdoomisms. Fixed those and have uploaded the fixed version, filename is ZinDevDevTrueFinal.wad.

 

ZinDevDevTrueFinal.zip

Edited October 1, 2022 by Dr. Zin : Uploaded another version

[SCF]

I was planning on revising my entry, but I ran into a lack of motivation and a lack of ideas. The nature of the challenge combined with all the voodoo doll contraptions I used makes it very hard to fine-tune the difficulty. I'm not very happy with the end result, but that's just how it is.

 

I did make a small update to fix the issue @alexsa2015sa found. The SSG has been moved so it will always drop down with you, in case you missed it.

 

DevDev_SCF_v2.wad

 

[RED77]

Thanks for hosting @mfg38 
This is my first time being part of a CP.
It was a fun experience.

[Ravendesk]

I was extremely busy with IRL stuff so couldn't playtest the rest of the submissions earlier, hopefully I will be able to do that now. I played the most recent versions posted.

 

@Dr. Zin

Spoiler

 

Really like the map layout and interconnectedness. I'm not a fan of sandbox gameplay, but I am always amazed by layouts like this. Different spawn locations depending on the difficulty are pretty cool as well. I feel like UV starves you from SSG a bit too long (at least it's very easy to miss it blind) - the end result is more tedious than hard. Have you considered adding one more SSG location somewhere in the red key area? I think that will not affect the difficulty too much, but will make things more fun on all difficulties.
Same goes for rocket launcher - I would be nice to have some additional guaranteed RL pickup after finding some keys - but all of that is up to you of course, just some thoughts.

 

Also, some bug reports: the way you did the outer texturing in the UV starting area leads to noticeable HOMs when you jump down (at least in dsda-doom with software rendering). Maybe changing the height of sector 1485 can fix than, but I'm not sure.

 

 

@knifeworld

Spoiler

Awesome map, extremely intense and fun. Not much to complain about, I will only note that I feel that difference between HNTR and UV is very subtle and HNTR is really not much easier. Final two cybers are very awkward to deal with on HNTR as well, changing something about them on a lower skill settings (giving more space maybe?) might make the difficulties more pronounced. Some other changes like closing bars and different archvile teleporter locations are pretty neat, though. Anyway, I still liked the map a lot!

 

I will try to finish the two remaining submissions tomorrow :)

[Ravendesk]

Finished the rest of the submissions.

I think we got a super-creative mapset overall, big thanks to @MFG38 for coming up with the idea and hosting the project and to everyone for participating and making these amazing maps. I have definitely learned a few cool tricks while making the map for it and playing other submissions.

 

Some personal thoughts on the final two submissions, subjective as always so take it with a grain of salt.

 

@alexsa2015sa

Spoiler

 

A pretty interesting map. I really liked how it opens up as you progress and the areas end up being connected to each other.

What I didn't quite like:

1. The colored switches puzzle is super confusing and also super annoying to deal with blind, because you are getting shot at by imps and you don't have ammo for ssg/cg or a rocket launcher to deal with them. Lowering the rocket launcher is easy enough, but figuring it out with all these imps is kinda unfun (unfun blind and yet no challenge at all when you know what to do - I don't really like that combination). Another problem is after that it's absolutely not clear what you are supposed to do. It would be nice if you have added some indication about what should be achieved with these switches, so they can be pressed intelligently. It's quite possible that I'm just having some iq issues, but, well, that's my experience.

2. The blue key fight - feels like there is not enough rockets to deal with it. And rushing in for a plasma is usually a death sentence because of undying spiders. You can save ammo before that fight by using berserk a lot, which I was doing, but it becomes tedious, plus there are lots of chaingunners and chaingunner snipers, so idk. I escaped the underground dimly lit section without killing everything and still had ammo problems on UV. Once again, maybe a skill issue, just sharing my experience.

3. Switch behind red "exit" panel seems misaligned vertically.

4. I think ammo balance on UV is kinda off in general after the switch puzzle (it's ok in the early part of the map). I had to berserk cacos to save ammo for archviles and stuff which is kinda tedious. Ammo problem in the blind run becomes even more apparent considering the fact that you teleport archviles into the areas with lots of corpses and you have to kill everything again (especially when playing blind and not knowing that this is going to happen).

5. I feel like double light googles secret is a bit too much, maybe replace the first one with something more useful like a box of rockets or some health bonuses? Just a thought.

 

Overall a very cool map in concept I like the atmosphere and the experimental nature of it, but I somehow was not having much fun at all playing it. I still appreciate it for what it is, though.

 

 

@MFG38

Spoiler

 

Awesome visuals and atmosphere. Midi certainly adds a lot to it. I get some serious Cube (1997 movie I mean) vibes from it. The fights are relatively easy even on UV, but are super-fun. I like them a lot and that's a good change of pace from some of the more convoluted maps in the set. The platforming section is also not hard, but your midi makes this section really cool to get through and just soak up the atmosphere.

A few minor complaints:

1. The switch below the yellow key (the one that activates the lift) is barely visible, I spent some time trying to figure out how to leave this arena before seeing it. Maybe make it a big brighter? Well, more noticeable somehow.

2. Blue key fight is optional? Not sure if that's intended. You get nothing at the end of it, feels strange. That would be a bit of a shame because that's one of my favorite fights in the map.

3. I really wish there was a way to kill two cybers at the end of the yellow door fight and the cyber at the end of the blue door fight more efficiently than using rockets, but idk how that can be achieved exactly (I wish we had green cybers!).

4. I feel like one more non-punishing platforming section at the end of the map will add to it a lot, so you don't just exit, but proceed to listen to this music while traversing into the void for a bit more. Otherwise the quick ending feels a bit underwhelming. Idk, just an idea.

 

 

[knifeworld]

Updated my map based on @Ravendesk 's feedback, HMP and HNTR are a bit more forgiving in the final room now.
This should be the final version if nobody notices anything borked.

KW_DeviousDeviance Update 07102022 0720.zip

Changes:
-voodoo dolls instantly lower a wall for more space to run around the final cybers. (HMP & HNTR)
-extra medkits, a blue armor, and some small cells teleport onto the lowered wall. (HMP & HNTR)
-cell and rocket ammo balance tweaked for final room.
-megasphere that was at the end of the final room is changed to a soulsphere that lowers down, due to the increased cell ammo and health packs, but it also lowers further away from the cybers.
-misc balancing tweaks to amounts of enemies for different encounters.
-Proper outside area added around final room so your bfg projectiles don't get eaten by the sky if you need to shoot remaining enemies from the oil platforms.
-final pass of small texturing fixes.

Potential remaining bugs:
-there might be a missing sky transfer somewhere sneaky but I've looked around a lot and didn't see any yet.
-one newly added revenant might get stuck too close to a block line in the first room.

[Ravendesk]

Just checking to see how public beta is going. @MFG38 everything's ok?

[MFG38]

Actually been meaning to post an update for a while. Here's the deal: my desktop PC was out of commission briefly due to the GPU starting to act up. I've sorted that issue out for the time being, though, and I intend to start compiling the final set soon. I'll take some time next week to replay all submissions and decide upon a map order. First beta build should be good to go sometime in early November.

[Dr. Zin]

@MFG38 any progress on compiling the beta build?