Why are people so wary of mixing techbase and hell?

[Xfing]

This is a topic that both concerns classic Doom and the new reboots (not counting doom 3 which I haven't played). 

Classic Doom was known for its melding of high technology with Hell. Hell itself was stated to have high technology and be capable of producing stuff like Spider Masterminds, Arachnotrons, Mancubi, Revenants all with its own efforts. The classic Inferno episode had a bunch of tech textures here and there, most immediately noticeable in the final map, Dis. 

What I've noticed and what kinda bothers me is that for a very long time most designers wouldn't capitalize on that and instead opted for keeping hell separate from any sort of technology in their texturing. I guess all of that goodness in the original Doom games was a product of its times - early 90s was the time of ready melding of science fiction and fantasy. It's there where science fantasy had its peak in gaming, with series like Ultima, Wizardy and Might and Magic. But for some reason this hasn't stuck, and these days only science fantasy games that aren't Dragon Ball that you can find anywhere are gonna be tabletop board games. People are just afraid of doing science fantasy anymore, perhaps worried about a potential hit to profits, or consider the mixing of these two supposedly opposide worlds to be "jarring" or whatever. 

Anyway, this has become even more apparent in Doom 2016 and Eternal. All the monsters with any traces of technology on them have been retconned from being created by Hell without aid to being results of UAC's experiments. It's always the humans that provide the technological enhancements to mancubi, arachnotrons - hell, Revenants are created entirely by the UAC, with the only contribution of Hell being the Argent energy. Why go that route? Why does Hell need to be devoid of high technology to be scary? Is it for suspension of disbelief so that stuff like Nekravol can come across as believable? It really wouldn't take anything away from the image of hell if it had command of high technology. Especially since what we get at the very end is Immora, a city of technology so high that it looks like fricking Urdak. 

So yeah, feel free to rec me some nice wads that have lots of those cable textures 'n crap mixed with hellish reds and greens, that would be nice.

[heliumlamb]

if hell were to exist, they would definitely have some sort of computer network there.

[SMG_Man]

With 2016 and Eternal, I think the idea is to cement the UAC as being an inherently evil/antagonistic force of their own. Not only did they open these gates to Hell, not only are they exploiting Hell for financial gain, they're also explicitly collaborating with Hell (in 2016 this was "limited" to Olivia Pierce's followers, but in Eternal and its DLC it's made clear that the majority of the UAC's corporate structure UAC is pro-Hell).

 

At its simplest, it's making the commentary that "corporations are evil lol", not an uncommon belief in these times.

[Ozcar]

I mean quake 1 mix medieval and futuristic, so watching hell mixing with tech base isnt weird.

[Ludi]

8 minutes ago, heliumlamb said:

if hell were to exist, they would definitely have some sort of computer network there.

 

That's where Rage 2's servers are located, so it definitely makes sense

 

[out_of_service]

I don't think they're wary of it, just a creative decision the respective teams made on their projects. Who knows what the next remake/reboot/re-imagining will be? Maybe there wont be a hell at all. Perhaps a 24th chromosome will be discovered on Mars unleashing a genetic hell of sorts. Wouldn't that be mint?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Some people like one and not the other. I personally don't care for the techbase theme, but I like Hell maps. I've run into other people who feel the opposite. I don't think people are wary of it though, I just think that a lot of people want to make a map in one specific style. When mixing styles, it can be hard for inexperienced mappers to make things look cohesive. Mixing tech and Hell isn't too difficult compared to some other combinations, but it can still pose a challenge.

[PeterMoro]

Not me. Most of my maps have a mixture of boith. Maybe I'm in the minority. 

I love it when maps take you to a completely different and contrasting environment. 

[Biodegradable]

I'd personally love to see some corrupted helltech maps. Just have to be patient and wait for some mappers to get inspired to make them is all.

[Somniac]

Interesting point actually - when I think of "hell tech" maps I picture lots of wood and metal and blood, like ancient machinery. I guess Inferno did have a couple of bits that looked like techbase that had been absorbed - ie Pandemonium. 

[Shepardus]

Episode 2 has a fusion of of techbase and hellish themes, and so would anything inspired by it.

[LouigiVerona]

It's an interesting point. I should try combining them in my next map. But my thinking here is that both themes are very powerful and mixing them together feels wrong. They feel very different thematically. But hey, come to think of it, I never really tried. So I shall do that :)

[Stupid Bunny]

I'm very fond of combining hell and tech whenever I can.  I know not everybody likes it, it's a common complaint of "Why is there all this techbase stuff in E3" or "Why did you put high-tech striplights in this marble stone wall, you stupid bunny", but a lot of times I find that aesthetic more interesting than a straight medieval/primitive hell.  I totally agree that it's a lot more intriguing to think that the demons have tech of their own, even if it's a little grittier in its aesthetic than what the humans have built.  Tech + magic is always super neat, as is anachronistic future/modern + ancient design, so I'm all over that.  That's one of the reasons why Pandemonium is my favorite E3 map.

 

 

[Sectorslayer]

That’s one thing I never understood about Episode 2. The abstract tech-hell mixture never really worked with me. Probably I was much to fixed on the consistent techbase theme of Episode 1? Nowadays the idea of hell morphing technology into their world makes actually more sense than thinking of hell having technology of their own. 🤔 Hm, time to fire up the editor… ✍️ 

[yakfak]

i think the narrative of moving from a familiar place to an unfamiliar one is more interesting than a slow merge

 

screwing everything up via technology is sort of the human calling card, giving it to the demons is fluff

[Steve D]

HellTech is my favorite theme, and is what I usually do when mapping. In one of my future projects I plan to take it farther than I have in the past and really concentrate on spooky atmosphere.

[Biodegradable]

7 minutes ago, Steve D said:

HellTech is my favorite theme, and is what I usually do when mapping.

 

Pardon me while I race over to your Doomwiki page and start exploring your back catalog.
NYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! 

[BGreener]

In addition to the grody and rusty "demon tech" spread throughout the levels, Doom's Hell had an emphasis on bloodpools and fleshy textures more than the 'ole fire and brimstone. Doom had a very weird yet specific take on Heck, and the cynical part of me thinks it was sadly too weirdly specific for the "popular palette". Similarly, saying the UAC is responsible for the demon's tech may be more digestible than the UAC racing and competing with Hell's own tech.

 

15 hours ago, Xfing said:

So yeah, feel free to rec me some nice wads that have lots of those cable textures 'n crap mixed with hellish reds and greens, that would be nice. 

 

I was really bummed with Doom 64 furthering the separation of "tech" with the "heck". It spoils the mapset a bit, but Beta64 has some wonderful helltech levels near the end. It is sadly unfinished, but really scratched the itch.

[Solmyr]

This reminds me of the backlash Heroes of Might and Magic III suffered back in the 90's when the developer company; New World Computing, added a new faction for one their expansions, Armageddon's Blade, this faction dubbed, "The Forge" was a stark contrast to the other factions from HoMM III which were fantasy themed, this new faction was high tech cyberpunk themed with stuff like cyborg tanks armed chainsaws and energy weapons, NWC received quite a lot of backlash from fans for this new addition, and had to redo the new faction into a fantasy one; The Conflux (elemental themed) and stick to the fantasy theme while the subtle sci-fi ones were brushed aside. That backlash happened despite the fact that Heroes of Might and Magic series was a turn based strategy game spin off of Might and Magic, and these series went for the following approaches from the get go: medieval fantasy = primitive descendants from a high tech past, and magic = ancient advanced tech. It seems that those people who complained were fans of the spin off and didn't cared for the original Might and Magic games otherwise they wouldn't have reacted in that way.

 

So that aversion to a blend of fantasy and technology was nothing new, but i wouldn't say that people in general are wary of this, it's just that some people want segregation amongst pure fantasy and sci-fi because they might see technology as something that takes away from the fantasy and somewhat anchors it on reality it turns monsters into interdimensional aliens that understands science and knows how to use it, instead of being magical creatures with unexplained powers of their own. Or maybe they just think a blend of magic and technology just looks like shit.

 

In Doom 2016, it was a deliberate design choice to explain Hell's high tech aspects as a product of UAC experimentation and exploitation of this new dimension they discovered so the UAC looks far more cartoonishly evil than it's original incarnation which was just a corrupt corporation trying a new experimental way of transportation purely for profit.

 

All things said, people in general aren't wary of mixing tech and hell, there are thousands of maps that borrows from the Shores of Hell partial corruption aesthetics and there are also hell maps that uses some tech textures and such, maybe brimstone, wood, and flesh hell is more popular than "magitek cyberpunk" hell but that doesn't mean people are weary of the latter, just a matter of prefference.

[LadyMistDragon]

Maybe just a function of a mapping cliche that has existed since the 90s? While you can generally see the more boundary-pushing projects doing what they feel like (or not using vanilla textures primarily), it sort of makes sense the vanilla-based projects tend to follow the philosophies set down many years in the past. Which could start a whole other conversation about the most effective use of vanilla textures, but generally the 90s maps that did that had a slapdash approach generally avoided these days. I don't think that's a good reason to not make maps like that, but it is easier for people less experiences in mapping to map with fewer textures so they don't end up creating a mess.

[Xfing]

6 hours ago, Solmyr said:

This reminds me of the backlash Heroes of Might and Magic III suffered back in the 90's when the developer company; New World Computing, added a new faction for one their expansions, Armageddon's Blade, this faction dubbed, "The Forge" was a stark contrast to the other factions from HoMM III which were fantasy themed, this new faction was high tech cyberpunk themed with stuff like cyborg tanks armed chainsaws and energy weapons, NWC received quite a lot of backlash from fans for this new addition, and had to redo the new faction into a fantasy one; The Conflux (elemental themed) and stick to the fantasy theme while the subtle sci-fi ones were brushed aside. That backlash happened despite the fact that Heroes of Might and Magic series was a turn based strategy game spin off of Might and Magic, and these series went for the following approaches from the get go: medieval fantasy = primitive descendants from a high tech past, and magic = ancient advanced tech. It seems that those people who complained were fans of the spin off and didn't cared for the original Might and Magic games otherwise they wouldn't have reacted in that way.

 

 

I'm a big fan of Might and Magic and naturally have also dabbled in Heroes as well. I'm well aware of all this. In fact I can tell you something nice - not at liberty to give any details at the moment, but I can tell you to stay on your toes and keep an eye out :)

[Xfing]

7 hours ago, BGrieber said:

In addition to the grody and rusty "demon tech" spread throughout the levels, Doom's Hell had an emphasis on bloodpools and fleshy textures more than the 'ole fire and brimstone. Doom had a very weird yet specific take on Heck, and the cynical part of me thinks it was sadly too weirdly specific for the "popular palette". Similarly, saying the UAC is responsible for the demon's tech may be more digestible than the UAC racing and competing with Hell's own tech.

Doom 1's Hell was very pretty when it comes to themes, with both the visceral aspect and the lava aspect nicely melded together. Mt. Erebus is an understandable fan favorite, and even it had a good number of techy-looking buildings. But while beautiful, I always considered Doom 1's Inferno rather soothing, or at least accomodating at times - while Doom 2's map 28 I found downright scary and disturbing. The music, the new tissue-based textures, the huge arena with the spiders, the lack of a skybox... that level is just terrifying and unpleasant. And that's why it's so genius!

[Solmyr]

17 minutes ago, Xfing said:

I'm a big fan of Might and Magic and naturally have also dabbled in Heroes as well. I'm well aware of all this. In fact I can tell you something nice - not at liberty to give any details at the moment, but I can tell you to stay on your toes and keep an eye out :)

Oh, i see. I'm also a fan of the series but i lean more towards Heroes. Looking forward for what you have in store ;)

[Xfing]

Oh, and it just occurred to me - science fantasy has seen a bit of a revival in Project Warlock and its sequel - these can definitely be classified as science fantasy first person shooters!

[Chezza]

Doom Eternal DLC 2 makes it clear that Hell has its own technology, quite advanced too. Also you're not giving enough credit to cultist base in standard campaign. There is real hell tech, but they also borrow / steal some from the worlds they've invaded for both bases and monsters.

 

As for classic dooms, quite honestly the vanilla textures aren't great for making real Hell Tech designs, they come off more as abstract or human tech being taken over, which is exactly the kind of textures we have to work with. Granted it's still possible to pull off, but more difficult.

[OniriA]

On 7/31/2022 at 1:36 AM, Xfing said:

Why are people so wary of mixing techbase and hell?

 

I haven't noticed that to be honest, as in my more then 20 years of playing Doom I've experienced plenty of wads that explore the theme of Hell-Tech. 

 

Canonically, Hell is obviously capabable of utilizing and creating its own form of technology aswell as influencing and (ab)using  human technology for their own needs (wasn't the Icon of Sin one of the main results of that?).  As a side-note, Corrupted tech-influenced demons like Arachnotrons, Revenants, Fatso's, Cyberdemons and Masterminds feel more at home in these kinds of maps anyway. 

 

Just like higher and lower levels of Heaven,  Fire and brimstone-Hell feels more like a lower level of Hell itself, relegated mostly to the lower tier of demons (Imps, Demons, the Caco Species, various forms of lost souls etc. Doom 3 adds even more lower tiers such as Trites, Cherubs, Wraiths, Vulgars and Maggots and gives Lost Souls and Pinky demons a corrupted tech influence aswell). 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by OniriA

[roadworx]

huh...i never really noticed that separation before, but now that ithink about it, you re right.

 

funnily enough, my first completed map (for an as of yet unreleased cp) was a techbase stuck inside of hell :p

[QuaketallicA]

On 7/30/2022 at 4:36 PM, Xfing said:

This is a topic that both concerns classic Doom and the new reboots (not counting doom 3 which I haven't played). 

Classic Doom was known for its melding of high technology with Hell. Hell itself was stated to have high technology and be capable of producing stuff like Spider Masterminds, Arachnotrons, Mancubi, Revenants all with its own efforts. The classic Inferno episode had a bunch of tech textures here and there, most immediately noticeable in the final map, Dis. 

What I've noticed and what kinda bothers me is that for a very long time most designers wouldn't capitalize on that and instead opted for keeping hell separate from any sort of technology in their texturing. I guess all of that goodness in the original Doom games was a product of its times - early 90s was the time of ready melding of science fiction and fantasy. It's there where science fantasy had its peak in gaming, with series like Ultima, Wizardy and Might and Magic. But for some reason this hasn't stuck, and these days only science fantasy games that aren't Dragon Ball that you can find anywhere are gonna be tabletop board games. People are just afraid of doing science fantasy anymore, perhaps worried about a potential hit to profits, or consider the mixing of these two supposedly opposide worlds to be "jarring" or whatever. 

Anyway, this has become even more apparent in Doom 2016 and Eternal. All the monsters with any traces of technology on them have been retconned from being created by Hell without aid to being results of UAC's experiments. It's always the humans that provide the technological enhancements to mancubi, arachnotrons - hell, Revenants are created entirely by the UAC, with the only contribution of Hell being the Argent energy. Why go that route? Why does Hell need to be devoid of high technology to be scary? Is it for suspension of disbelief so that stuff like Nekravol can come across as believable? It really wouldn't take anything away from the image of hell if it had command of high technology. Especially since what we get at the very end is Immora, a city of technology so high that it looks like fricking Urdak. 

So yeah, feel free to rec me some nice wads that have lots of those cable textures 'n crap mixed with hellish reds and greens, that would be nice.

 

Yeah, but isn't the UAC in Doom Eternal literally run by one of the Hell Priests? And what are the Doom Hunters if not ancient Aggadon Warriors bred in the times of the Sentinel Civil War to do battle with the Slayer and his Crusaders, resurrected through unholy fusion of the dark arts and the UAC's advanced technology? That's demon + tech. I mean, hell, the entire Arctic Citadel level to me seems like a fusion of Satanism with technology in a creative, cool way. (Cool not an intended pun).

 

What about the Khan Makyr and the whole pseudo-heaven of Urdak? The Makyrs are supposed to be some form of technology created by the Father. The Icon of Sin is covered in this god-like armor that the Makyr used with intent to control it.

Spoiler

(technically not the Father, but that's a TAG spoiler)

 

[QuaketallicA]

Sigil is a recent wad that uses the idea of corrupted tekbase technology. One of the levels half-way through the episode has three routes you can choose to take, each with a key at the end. The last route has this section where the floors and ceilings become possessed and try to crush you, and you have to make it across this crusher puzzle. There's some demented sigils on the ground like broken teleporter pads which can cause the possession to stop and restart again.

[QuaketallicA]

5 hours ago, OniriA said:

\Doom 3 adds even more lower tiers such as Trites, Cherubs, Wraiths, Vulgars and Maggots and gives Lost Souls and Pinky demons a corrupted tech influence aswell). 

 

 Man those lost souls were horrifying in Doom 3.