The Power Rankings: TNT: Evilution

[TheFocus]

Shipping/Respawning is amazing.

[ChopBlock223]

I feel like one has to be tolerant of some 90's pwad jank/experimentation to enjoy some parts of TNT. A lot of criticisms here are pretty fair, but don't feel too big most of the time whenever I actually play it.

[TheFocus]

no hate toward the guy making this thread, but what is there to say about TNT (or any of the OG games) at this point? i feel personally like every talking point, thought, opinion, and review has been exhausted for a while now. and as i was reading through every map entry, it ended up exactly the way it always does. 

(basically something to the effect of "while TNT has some great moments, judging the product as a whole leaves *the player* mostly disappointed in it's offerings")

 

as others have said (again, hundreds of times) TNT was made with atmosphere and setting in mind. and guess what? like always, said reviewer always examines the WAD from a predominately a gameplay and visual perspective. this is fine, but if the conversation always goes the same way, why keep having this conversation?

 

[Thelokk]

1 minute ago, map11has2names said:

no hate toward the guy making this thread, but what is there to say about TNT (or any of the OG games) at this point? i feel personally like every talking point, thought, opinion, and review has been exhausted for a while now. and as i was reading through every map entry, it ended up exactly the way it always does. 

(basically something to the effect of "while TNT has some great moments, judging the product as a whole leaves *the player* mostly disappointed in it's offerings")

 

as others have said (again, hundreds of times) TNT was made with atmosphere and setting in mind. and guess what? like always, said reviewer always examines the WAD from a predominately a gameplay and visual perspective. this is fine, but if the conversation always goes the same way, why keep having this conversation?

 

 

Because, for once, the conversation actually goes a fair bit deeper than 'while TNT' etc.

[ChopBlock223]

I get the impression he hasn't played it much before (if at all). I always like seeing the opinion of people playing TNT for the first time, because it's often varied, some people hate it, some love it, and some land in the middle. It really reflects the mixed bag of the .wad

[General Roasterock]

17 hours ago, map11has2names said:

what is there to say about TNT (or any of the OG games) at this point?

I'm not seeking to crack the Theory of Rela-TNT or somehow transcend into a fourth dimension of enjoyment or disapproval for these maps. A lot of what I've said has probably already been said before, but if my thoughts are nullified to the point of uselessness because there exists another discussion out there somewhere with similar, or even exact wording, then the whole point of discussion falls into nihilism, which I'm not looking to entertain.

17 hours ago, map11has2names said:

as others have said (again, hundreds of times) TNT was made with atmosphere and setting in mind. and guess what? like always, said reviewer always examines the WAD from a predominately a gameplay and visual perspective. this is fine, but if the conversation always goes the same way, why keep having this conversation?

I think this nails exactly why I have this thread in the first place, and I've failed to follow up to "You're missing the point, it's about atmosphere" with "ok, where?". If having the approach for gameplay really misses the point of the levels, who says so? Am I not considering the scale enough? Is it the lighting? Is it the music? Would the map essentially fall apart if it didn't have a track that didn't capture the same feeling? Yes, I do have a lot more leverage for maps that play well, and it just so happens that TNT has a lot of points where it doesn't play well, something that leaning on the atmosphere view inadvertently agrees with. If the issue is that I didn't like a map that you did, then bring it on. That's why I'm writing these here instead of just in some notepad file for myself, so if I'm missing that visible piece of atmosphere, I can have that brought directly to my face.

15 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

I get the impression he hasn't played it much before (if at all). I always like seeing the opinion of people playing TNT for the first time, because it's often varied, some people hate it, some love it, and some land in the middle. It really reflects the mixed bag of the .wad

I played it a half dozen years ago on GZ, but I've only actually observed what's going on in the maps outside of wanting to finish them in the past couple months. I'm going through these several times over to try and prevent that whole road trip pointing-at-landmark mentality that I feel works a lot better for the DWMC. 

[General Roasterock]

On another note, I did find that video Mark Snell did on his involvement with Team TNT, specifically Ballistyx, which I'm posting here for longevity.

 

 

[Maribo]

On 9/26/2022 at 6:39 PM, map11has2names said:

no hate toward the guy making this thread, but what is there to say about TNT (or any of the OG games) at this point? i feel personally like every talking point, thought, opinion, and review has been exhausted for a while now. and as i was reading through every map entry, it ended up exactly the way it always does. 

(basically something to the effect of "while TNT has some great moments, judging the product as a whole leaves *the player* mostly disappointed in it's offerings")

 

as others have said (again, hundreds of times) TNT was made with atmosphere and setting in mind. and guess what? like always, said reviewer always examines the WAD from a predominately a gameplay and visual perspective. this is fine, but if the conversation always goes the same way, why keep having this conversation?

God forbid we have a thread on Doomworld that isn't the 40 thousandth repost of "what source port do you use" or "do you play saveless pistol start or continuous?" and has content that isn't people cracking the same 50 jokes for more invulnerability sphere likes.

 

To try and boil down long-form write-ups with probable hours put into both experiencing the map and actually writing up the blog post itself, into a single statement is pretty silly. You should do a write-up if you're unsatisfied with the way this thread is, I'll be eagerly awaiting your deconstruction of TNT from a perspective of atmosphere and setting, with accompanying meta-conversation on why it's so divisive.

[ChopBlock223]

It's interesting to hear someone actually detail their thoughts on this set, because a lot of the time it's not much more than "TNTsux lmao", I may not agree with every assessment, but I like hearing someone actually articulate their position rather than just blow the .wad off.

[joepallai]

Just now, ChopBlock223 said:

It's interesting to hear someone actually detail their thoughts on this set, because a lot of the time it's not much more than "TNTsux lmao", I may not agree with every assessment, but I like hearing someone actually articulate their position rather than just blow the .wad off.

 

This is exactly what is great about this thread.   There is actual thought and work being put into these assessments.  It's quite refreshing to see and especially see on something other than ep1, Plutonia or the other usual favorites. 

[Thelokk]

10 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

On another note, I did find that video Mark Snell did on his involvement with Team TNT, specifically Ballistyx, which I'm posting here for longevity.

 

 

 

Ah yes, when I was 13 and stroller was the way to go. Though I admit I dropped both Doom and Heretic the instant Quake came out (and Quake the instant Warcraft 2 came out, but that's another story).

 

Bit of a strange level run here. He forgets basic stuff like infinite zerk, yet clearly peeks around corners where enemies are. Did he rehearse, or is the level that ingrained in his memory 25 years later?

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Thelokk said:

Bit of a strange level run here. He forgets basic stuff like infinite zerk, yet clearly peeks around corners where enemies are. Did he rehearse, or is the level that ingrained in his memory 25 years later?

I think it's just his cautious playstyle, he did forget about the obvious light amplification visor secret.

[Thelokk]

4 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I think it's just his cautious playstyle, he did forget about the obvious light amplification visor secret.

 

Completely OT but

 

Spoiler

Reminds me of a few days ago, when a a streamer was testing a map I made barely a month ago. They asked how to progress... and I had to open up UDB 'cause I had completely forgotten.

 

[General Roasterock]

Map 21: Administration Center

 

  I can no longer feign ignorance in regard to the authors of these maps. Drake O’Brien only contributed three maps to his entire discography, all of them were for Evilution, and all of them are pretty bad. Administration Center is simply another stop on the show that is his contributions to the scene at large. It just so happens to be that this map is cosmically significant to my time with Evilution. 

  For starters, the entire first half of the map is contained within a square, requiring not only that the area fit within the square, giving up a lot of creative freedom to do so, but also requiring a great deal of visual cohesion. This map does neither, putting hellish crags inside of metal plates and wooden storage rooms. Every room is cramped and congested, sucking the life out of the detailing and making any intricacies that are included hazards and annoyances. The pathetic attempts at desks and chairs take what are otherwise empty rooms in the corners of the building and turn them into empty rooms with a singular jutting obstacle. These rooms are guarded by an outer ring of nine identical lookouts, each with an Imp and Chaingunner, with a singular exception of one being replaced by a Shotgunner, ready to mow down anyone who doesn’t patrol the outer edges in order to clear them out in a time consuming fashion. 

  Attempting to move through the map is horrendous. There are several sections, specifically the ring around and heading into the central sludge pit, that make it incredibly easy to be blocked by infinitely tall monsters at an angle where you can’t fight back. This is most egregious with the two Imps in the Rocket Launcher pit where, for some reason, you have to sit in damaging slime and wait for it to raise after hitting a switch, unless you very craftily move around the edge of the preceding door in order to continue progression. Rooms will open for seemingly no reason and lead to absolutely nothing but extra enemies and sparse powerups, such as the teleporter beyond the Megasphere. 

  The composition of the path to unlocking the Blue Key is baffling. It starts with a floor that slowly lowers you into a very off-putting hellrock section with a singular Radiation Suit and a handful of Spectres, only to then have you take some 20 seconds to raise yourself back up to the height of the rest of the level not long after. The room after that has a monster closet that can only be opened by going inside of one of the book shelf alcoves and then shooting to wake everything up, hopefully not noticing that O’Brien just forgot to texture the wall above the entrance to the room. These monsters will then all teleport into the hallway directly below you, requiring you to not delay in escaping the room in order to not be caught by another infinite range claw from underneath. 

  Getting the secret BFG, which I feel is relatively important to completing the map comfortably, requires that one of the weirdest rooms in a weird map be accessed. It’s spaced out with Shotgunners, Imps, and a singular Revenant and Pain Elemental. Entering this point without rockets gives the Pain Elemental free range to burst a great deal of souls into the room, as per usual. The only way to actually reach the BFG that is hidden in an already optional area is by running up the pyramid in the southwest corner and landing on the ledge with the Imps. Crossing anywhere on this pyramid will start an array of crushers that periodically drop down onto the steps, meaning that it will be nigh impossible to properly time a jump if the crushers are active, as they will immediately fall out of sync. I only managed to do it once with them moving, and that was after minutes of waiting and stalling, and even after all that, actually finding the BFG requires the knowledge that the walls at the end of the balcony are fake. 

  The Blue Door opens to an area that simply expects you to approach a wall to realize that it hides a satanic ritual in what is honestly the most neatly dressed part of the map. It continues this expectation as you are required to cross nearly every landmark of this setpiece in order to open the door to continue. There’s a Baron that sits idly on a pillar that can easily be mowed down by rockets, and only lowerable by pressing the off texture on the structure. First time players will likely obliterate the Noble before it even becomes mobile because of this, not noticing the next progression mechanism. The hidden box of Rockets in the back corner is the least of this map’s visual concerns, despite being stuck in an unpegged sector that raises all the way to the ceiling. Said Baron pillar also acts as a teleport away from the building and into the outside area.

  Jesus Christ.

  Words can not describe what a dilapidated monstrosity this outdoor expanse is, but I will attempt to anyway. The two wings of the structure you start in each have a small group of demons that will teleport to the other side whenever they attempt to approach the middle, because it wouldn’t be a Drake O’Brien map without an untelegraphed and unfollowable string of teleports. They way out involves going into both wings to shoot switches that will both raise the damaging liquid and open the door to create a path. On the other hand, you could simply fall into the slime, press the switch within the pit that raises it, and manually open the door by tapping use on it, making sure to also grab the secret Blue Armor that has absolutely zero hints to the fact that the wall can be opened, also hiding a missing texture. Both of these methods will yield the exact same outcome, only with the latter not removing the damaging floor, and conflict with each other in terms of what is accomplished, despite both yielding a way out of this contraption.

  From there, the only way to properly explain the insanity of the layout would be to use visual aids.

Spoiler

  These two lines are what triggers the section with the Cyberdemon, as well as a single Arachnotron, to spill into the rest of the space, allowing them to possibly teleport away with a line in front of their enclosure. What is clearly an issue with this setup is that the east line does not fully extend to the wall, meaning that you could simply hug the outer ridge and completely avoid the trigger to release the Cyberdemon. I have no explanation for the way this is drawn except incompetence. It couldn’t be that O’Brien wanted the player to decide when to fight the Cyberdemon, because the lines are made with clear intent to cover both the sides around the central structure, but simply fail to do so, and there’s no telegraphing visually that these lines even exist.

Spoiler

  Furthermore, each of these groups of lines act as teleporters into huge areas of this already humongous landscape. These groups are drawn sporadically, without direction, and inefficiently, only serving to make already nebulous and nonthreatening combat even more so by teleporting away the demons before they have a chance to attack.

  There is a secret Invulnerability that teleports you to another area, where the ledge of a rock formation is what is actually marked as secret, only to then teleport you back into the main section after dealing with the demons that were supposed to teleport out early, including a singular Arch-Vile. This area can also be glided into because the gap that was meant to block access is made in such a way that allows for perfectly cardinal movement to pass right through it, which definitely feels unintentional. If you take the Cyberdemon to task with the Invulnerability and nuke the Arch-Vile before it teleports, the worst of this combat has passed, and all that remains are two dozen randomly placed Imps, three Arachnotrons, a Revenant, and a Mancubus. The last two of those can be wiped out with the Arch-Vile, leaving only the Arachnotrons that can easily be killed from afar on account of the fact that this area is one or two flat layers of rock.

  Progression here is supposed to be going upstream on the blood river, reaching a Soulsphere, then turning around and going back to see that a wall has lowered revealing the exit, which is guarded by nine Imps and six Spectres, some of which will likely teleport away due to the bizarrely drawn lines. If it were not clear up until this point, any attempts to UV-Max this map are entirely dependent on how areas like this roll, and whether or not monsters behave in the very specific way that can keep them from escaping into another zip code. Even the exit cube has a singular unaligned texture due to it being the only one not unpegged, when it is clear from the convention of the other three that they should all be on the same orientation. On that note, I think it’s worth mentioning that many of O’Brien’s custom textures, ones that I believe are his since they primarily show up in his maps and are prefixed by “DO” in the Textures lump, are absolutely hideous. The green covering the outdoor structure, the gate blocking off the two turret Chaingunners, the rocks lining the Shotgunner perches in the BFG secret, the barbed wire with colors reminiscent of MSPaint, all stick out like finger paintings amongst Doom’s conservative sketches.

  At the end of it all, I struggle to find a single element in Administration Center that works mechanically, let alone in a fun manner. Even ignoring the fact that Drake O’Brien can not make an efficient monster teleport closet to save his life, this map is a mechanical abomination coated in a subpar texture host, and dragged out for twice as long as it can keep up. It does nothing but waste a spot on the lineup.

[Stupid Bunny]

Just went through your whole series of writeups today--they're magnificent, it's really enjoyable reading such thorough reviews of maps that usually get lumped together with one another and not given much individual attention.

 

What's funny to me is that the maps that stick out most in my mind, and were probably my favorite, most inspirational TNT maps when I was getting into Doom, are almost universally the ones you've hated the most, and I can't really pinpoint why that is.  You articulate a lot of very good reasons to not like the maps, and the fact is probably that my reasons for enjoying them are a lot more dumb and personal.  

 

I've always been fond of the Drake maps, I suppose because I like the progression from smaller, tighter spaces to the echoing sprawls of the later stages.  Granted, the execution is pretty clumsy for the most part, but something about that concept stuck with me early on.  I always had a certain fondness for sprawling levels and wide open spaces in games generally, and the three O'Brien maps all clicked with me early on.  I loved Central Processing the first time I played it, from beginning to end.  I even like the weird funky textures he contributed, and although yeah they are pretty crude (the barbed wire in particular is indefensibly bad) to my mind they end up feeling abstract in a way I always appreciated.  Even if that wasn't the intention.

 

I also love Dead Zone, although you are 100% right that Smells Like Burning Corpse is the wrong track for it, to the point that from the very first time I played it I've been in the habit of idmusing to Agony Rhapsody (which may not be the best either, but at this point it's the track I associate with the map.)  Again, it's probably the concept I like the most, a single, non-isometric building that can be approached from multiple sides, under siege from surrounding revenant towers, with a surprisingly disorienting layout inside making it all feel bigger and more complex than it really is.  I always kind of liked that in a map, and I know not everybody likes to feel lost and confused when they play Doom but I'm weird that way and the relatively small size of the map probably makes it more tolerable anyway.

 

You articulate your own thoughts really well, though, and even for the maps I love I can't say I disagree with your takes given how much you've thought about them.  I look forward to reading your write-ups of the remaining 9 maps.

[General Roasterock]

2 minutes ago, Stupid Bunny said:

What's funny to me is that the maps that stick out most in my mind, and were probably my favorite, most inspirational TNT maps when I was getting into Doom, are almost universally the ones you've hated the most, and I can't really pinpoint why that is.  You articulate a lot of very good reasons to not like the maps, and the fact is probably that my reasons for enjoying them are a lot more dumb and personal.  

 

I've always been fond of the Drake maps, I suppose because I like the progression from smaller, tighter spaces to the echoing sprawls of the later stages.  Granted, the execution is pretty clumsy for the most part, but something about that concept stuck with me early on.  I always had a certain fondness for sprawling levels and wide open spaces in games generally, and the three O'Brien maps all clicked with me early on.  I loved Central Processing the first time I played it, from beginning to end.  I even like the weird funky textures he contributed, and although yeah they are pretty crude (the barbed wire in particular is indefensibly bad) to my mind they end up feeling abstract in a way I always appreciated.  Even if that wasn't the intention.

 

I also love Dead Zone, although you are 100% right that Smells Like Burning Corpse is the wrong track for it, to the point that from the very first time I played it I've been in the habit of idmusing to Agony Rhapsody (which may not be the best either, but at this point it's the track I associate with the map.)  Again, it's probably the concept I like the most, a single, non-isometric building that can be approached from multiple sides, under siege from surrounding revenant towers, with a surprisingly disorienting layout inside making it all feel bigger and more complex than it really is.  I always kind of liked that in a map, and I know not everybody likes to feel lost and confused when they play Doom but I'm weird that way and the relatively small size of the map probably makes it more tolerable anyway.

  I definitely agree that TNT is a conceptual inspiration powerhouse. Having so many different visions come together put each map into their own designation, rather than allowing the set to be divided into episodic themes (there's of course the traditional Doom II thirds, but I don't think that holds any water in the way TNT is made). I'm sure I'd have a connection to the WAD that's harder to describe if the majority of my time with it wasn't the past month or so, that's the wonder of emotion. There's no way to argue for or against it, all that matters is what you felt. 

  Dead Zone is a great example of the conception strengths, there's nothing like a singular building surrounded by outdoor space in the IWADs to my knowledge. It just takes consideration to use such a small space in a meaningful way, one that Dead Zone tried by just putting snaking hallways in random sides of the building surrounding one cluster of noncongruent rooms. It requires me to subscribe to the locale before I really consider the purpose of what these rooms are each meant to do, which is definitely more than possible in that prerogative. 

  I appreciate the thoughts here, it's a valid view.

[Thelokk]

1 hour ago, General Roasterock said:

Map 21: Administration Center

 

  I can no longer feign ignorance in regard to the authors of these maps. Drake O’Brien only contributed three maps to his entire discography, all of them were for Evilution, and all of them are pretty bad. Administration Center is simply another stop on the show that is his contributions to the scene at large. It just so happens to be that this map is cosmically significant to my time with Evilution. 

  For starters, the entire first half of the map is contained within a square, requiring not only that the area fit within the square, giving up a lot of creative freedom to do so, but also requiring a great deal of visual cohesion. This map does neither, putting hellish crags inside of metal plates and wooden storage rooms. Every room is cramped and congested, sucking the life out of the detailing and making any intricacies that are included hazards and annoyances. The pathetic attempts at desks and chairs take what are otherwise empty rooms in the corners of the building and turn them into empty rooms with a singular jutting obstacle. These rooms are guarded by an outer ring of nine identical lookouts, each with an Imp and Chaingunner, with a singular exception of one being replaced by a Shotgunner, ready to mow down anyone who doesn’t patrol the outer edges in order to clear them out in a time consuming fashion. 

  Attempting to move through the map is horrendous. There are several sections, specifically the ring around and heading into the central sludge pit, that make it incredibly easy to be blocked by infinitely tall monsters at an angle where you can’t fight back. This is most egregious with the two Imps in the Rocket Launcher pit where, for some reason, you have to sit in damaging slime and wait for it to raise after hitting a switch, unless you very craftily move around the edge of the preceding door in order to continue progression. Rooms will open for seemingly no reason and lead to absolutely nothing but extra enemies and sparse powerups, such as the teleporter beyond the Megasphere. 

  The composition of the path to unlocking the Blue Key is baffling. It starts with a floor that slowly lowers you into a very off-putting hellrock section with a singular Radiation Suit and a handful of Spectres, only to then have you take some 20 seconds to raise yourself back up to the height of the rest of the level not long after. The room after that has a monster closet that can only be opened by going inside of one of the book shelf alcoves and then shooting to wake everything up, hopefully not noticing that O’Brien just forgot to texture the wall above the entrance to the room. These monsters will then all teleport into the hallway directly below you, requiring you to not delay in escaping the room in order to not be caught by another infinite range claw from underneath. 

  Getting the secret BFG, which I feel is relatively important to completing the map comfortably, requires that one of the weirdest rooms in a weird map be accessed. It’s spaced out with Shotgunners, Imps, and a singular Revenant and Pain Elemental. Entering this point without rockets gives the Pain Elemental free range to burst a great deal of souls into the room, as per usual. The only way to actually reach the BFG that is hidden in an already optional area is by running up the pyramid in the southwest corner and landing on the ledge with the Imps. Crossing anywhere on this pyramid will start an array of crushers that periodically drop down onto the steps, meaning that it will be nigh impossible to properly time a jump if the crushers are active, as they will immediately fall out of sync. I only managed to do it once with them moving, and that was after minutes of waiting and stalling, and even after all that, actually finding the BFG requires the knowledge that the walls at the end of the balcony are fake. 

  The Blue Door opens to an area that simply expects you to approach a wall to realize that it hides a satanic ritual in what is honestly the most neatly dressed part of the map. It continues this expectation as you are required to cross nearly every landmark of this setpiece in order to open the door to continue. There’s a Baron that sits idly on a pillar that can easily be mowed down by rockets, and only lowerable by pressing the off texture on the structure. First time players will likely obliterate the Noble before it even becomes mobile because of this, not noticing the next progression mechanism. The hidden box of Rockets in the back corner is the least of this map’s visual concerns, despite being stuck in an unpegged sector that raises all the way to the ceiling. Said Baron pillar also acts as a teleport away from the building and into the outside area.

  Jesus Christ.

  Words can not describe what a dilapidated monstrosity this outdoor expanse is, but I will attempt to anyway. The two wings of the structure you start in each have a small group of demons that will teleport to the other side whenever they attempt to approach the middle, because it wouldn’t be a Drake O’Brien map without an untelegraphed and unfollowable string of teleports. They way out involves going into both wings to shoot switches that will both raise the damaging liquid and open the door to create a path. On the other hand, you could simply fall into the slime, press the switch within the pit that raises it, and manually open the door by tapping use on it, making sure to also grab the secret Blue Armor that has absolutely zero hints to the fact that the wall can be opened, also hiding a missing texture. Both of these methods will yield the exact same outcome, only with the latter not removing the damaging floor, and conflict with each other in terms of what is accomplished, despite both yielding a way out of this contraption.

  From there, the only way to properly explain the insanity of the layout would be to use visual aids.

  Hide contents

  These two lines are what triggers the section with the Cyberdemon, as well as a single Arachnotron, to spill into the rest of the space, allowing them to possibly teleport away with a line in front of their enclosure. What is clearly an issue with this setup is that the east line does not fully extend to the wall, meaning that you could simply hug the outer ridge and completely avoid the trigger to release the Cyberdemon. I have no explanation for the way this is drawn except incompetence. It couldn’t be that O’Brien wanted the player to decide when to fight the Cyberdemon, because the lines are made with clear intent to cover both the sides around the central structure, but simply fail to do so, and there’s no telegraphing visually that these lines even exist.

  Hide contents

  Furthermore, each of these groups of lines act as teleporters into huge areas of this already humongous landscape. These groups are drawn sporadically, without direction, and inefficiently, only serving to make already nebulous and nonthreatening combat even more so by teleporting away the demons before they have a chance to attack.

  There is a secret Invulnerability that teleports you to another area, where the ledge of a rock formation is what is actually marked as secret, only to then teleport you back into the main section after dealing with the demons that were supposed to teleport out early, including a singular Arch-Vile. This area can also be glided into because the gap that was meant to block access is made in such a way that allows for perfectly cardinal movement to pass right through it, which definitely feels unintentional. If you take the Cyberdemon to task with the Invulnerability and nuke the Arch-Vile before it teleports, the worst of this combat has passed, and all that remains are two dozen randomly placed Imps, three Arachnotrons, a Revenant, and a Mancubus. The last two of those can be wiped out with the Arch-Vile, leaving only the Arachnotrons that can easily be killed from afar on account of the fact that this area is one or two flat layers of rock.

  Progression here is supposed to be going upstream on the blood river, reaching a Soulsphere, then turning around and going back to see that a wall has lowered revealing the exit, which is guarded by nine Imps and six Spectres, some of which will likely teleport away due to the bizarrely drawn lines. If it were not clear up until this point, any attempts to UV-Max this map are entirely dependent on how areas like this roll, and whether or not monsters behave in the very specific way that can keep them from escaping into another zip code. Even the exit cube has a singular unaligned texture due to it being the only one not unpegged, when it is clear from the convention of the other three that they should all be on the same orientation. On that note, I think it’s worth mentioning that many of O’Brien’s custom textures, ones that I believe are his since they primarily show up in his maps and are prefixed by “DO” in the Textures lump, are absolutely hideous. The green covering the outdoor structure, the gate blocking off the two turret Chaingunners, the rocks lining the Shotgunner perches in the BFG secret, the barbed wire with colors reminiscent of MSPaint, all stick out like finger paintings amongst Doom’s conservative sketches.

  At the end of it all, I struggle to find a single element in Administration Center that works mechanically, let alone in a fun manner. Even ignoring the fact that Drake O’Brien can not make an efficient monster teleport closet to save his life, this map is a mechanical abomination coated in a subpar texture host, and dragged out for twice as long as it can keep up. It does nothing but waste a spot on the lineup.

 

I'll be honest, when I first played this map back in the late 90s, I remember being fairly impressed by its beginning section - partly because, much like CEMENT, it's really hard to get me to dislike heavy PANEL texturing; partly for the very simple gall of making such a late map... an administration center. And what a weird one. Always gave me such 'what lies below' vibes, it tickled my imagination.

Doesn't mean it's a good map by any means, obviously.

[LadyMistDragon]

2 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

Map 21: Administration Center

 

 

 

 

Drake O'Brien and his ridiculous custom textures.....I can remember that ridiculous "DISASTER AREA" wall in Mt. Pain, and while it's probably better than this map, that maze with cobwebs was just so strange.

 

But Map 21 has nothing enjoyable in it whatsoever. Map 08 was an ugly map, but combat wasn't bad, other than that idiot ending, I guess. This....well, that PANEL texture @Thelokk refers to was basically the only thing the name could be pointing to. Extremely ugly, serious monotonous usage of said ugliest, the stupidest fights one could imagine, and that "Disaster Area" of an outdoors section which made absolutely NO sense and chaotic without reason.

[Alfonso]

Oh boy!! Best map is next!!

But seriously i agree with the review.

All of Brien maps are especially bad for UV Max. Too long and boring with continuous play too. Mount Pain is alright, i guess since the length is tolerable unlike the other two Brien maps.

Administration Center, Habitat and Baron's Den are the unholy trinity of TNT maps.

[LadyMistDragon]

Baron's Den is just boring, not much different from Quarry. Also, I really like Lee Jackson's midi for the former.

[ChopBlock223]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:02 AM, Stupid Bunny said:

Just went through your whole series of writeups today--they're magnificent, it's really enjoyable reading such thorough reviews of maps that usually get lumped together with one another and not given much individual attention.

 

What's funny to me is that the maps that stick out most in my mind, and were probably my favorite, most inspirational TNT maps when I was getting into Doom, are almost universally the ones you've hated the most, and I can't really pinpoint why that is.  You articulate a lot of very good reasons to not like the maps, and the fact is probably that my reasons for enjoying them are a lot more dumb and personal.  

 

I've always been fond of the Drake maps, I suppose because I like the progression from smaller, tighter spaces to the echoing sprawls of the later stages.  Granted, the execution is pretty clumsy for the most part, but something about that concept stuck with me early on.  I always had a certain fondness for sprawling levels and wide open spaces in games generally, and the three O'Brien maps all clicked with me early on.  I loved Central Processing the first time I played it, from beginning to end.  I even like the weird funky textures he contributed, and although yeah they are pretty crude (the barbed wire in particular is indefensibly bad) to my mind they end up feeling abstract in a way I always appreciated.  Even if that wasn't the intention.

 

I also love Dead Zone, although you are 100% right that Smells Like Burning Corpse is the wrong track for it, to the point that from the very first time I played it I've been in the habit of idmusing to Agony Rhapsody (which may not be the best either, but at this point it's the track I associate with the map.)  Again, it's probably the concept I like the most, a single, non-isometric building that can be approached from multiple sides, under siege from surrounding revenant towers, with a surprisingly disorienting layout inside making it all feel bigger and more complex than it really is.  I always kind of liked that in a map, and I know not everybody likes to feel lost and confused when they play Doom but I'm weird that way and the relatively small size of the map probably makes it more tolerable anyway.

 

You articulate your own thoughts really well, though, and even for the maps I love I can't say I disagree with your takes given how much you've thought about them.  I look forward to reading your write-ups of the remaining 9 maps.

I can't agree more. He's fairly spot on about Administration Center, it's a bizarre mess of a level which shouldn't be easy to like, but there's just aspects about it I'm fond of anyway, for some reason. Not just nostalgia, either.

[s4f3s3x]

I got to admit, Administration Center is probably my favourite TNT map...

[General Roasterock]

14 hours ago, s4f3s3x said:

I got to admit, Administration Center is probably my favourite TNT map...

Normally I'd try and defend my stance, but your username is too awesome for me to fight back. 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 9:48 PM, LadyMistDragon said:

Baron's Den is just boring, not much different from Quarry. Also, I really like Lee Jackson's midi for the former.

I'm guessing you're referring to the midi pack, which is a bit beyond my scope here. My HMP run I'm on right now has it loaded just to say I listened to the tracks, but a lot of them just feel like the same midis with different twists (at least up to Map 10 where I last stopped). I also don't know why a set that already had its own music would receive a new set of midis, but there's no reason to stifle creativity I suppose. 

[Nefelibeta]

Have to second that, made me felt very weird that a midi pack has remixes. To me, they mostly belong in tribute projects.

[General Roasterock]

Ok, here we go

 

Map 22: Habitat

 

  When I played Habitat for the first time, I entered a fugue state that I have not been sent to by any other map. This nirvana was gone by recurrent playthroughs, but the rush of emotion that came from simply experiencing the map is unmatched. That is not to say that the map is good, far from it, but I could not reject the notion that I found enjoyment in the experience. 

  Habitat fails to have quality. Any angle of observation will reveal nothing but blemish and cluelessness. Without any ulterior motive, I genuinely liked the pentagram as the lights shut off in the Yellow Key trap, and it’s a welcome change to see a functioning teleport closet in a TNT map, but that’s the only thing that has any semblance of intelligent and coherent design. Take the starting room for example, which has metal sewer pipes supported by dirt, a group of hitscanners entrapped by a bunch of crates, a liberal use of concrete, and a secret immediately behind you housing a Soulsphere held within another secret tagged sector. This secret immediately opens yet another secret housing a BFG. It is a bold move for your map to unveil one-third of its secrets in thirty seconds, but bold is a very light way to put this map. It’s an even bolder move to use yet another three secrets to create a sequence that ultimately rewards you with a Blue Armor, only for said secret to be at the very end of the map. 

  The tunnel section is rightfully scorned, as it is nothing but draining and exaggerated. Progression is seemingly random, and secrets are only accessible by walking over random parts of the pipes that could very easily be missable if one of the many different routes are taken. Every square inch of pipe or side tunnel looks exactly the same, and the incredibly tight corners are filled to the brim with Zombiemen, Shotgunners, and Spectres to trudge through. These enemies can easily be woken up all at once, which could lead to a possible crash of the executable should the monsters trigger enough of the lowering walls simultaneously. I imagine that the slime on the ceiling was supposed to appear as a reflection of the water in the pipes, but I also imagine no one was looking out for that level of detail after the first impression the map gives. The same could be said about the blue room with the BFG, as I can only think that it’s an attempt to make the illusion of being underwater. For a map called “Habitat”, the outdoor areas do not look natural in the slightest, consisting of boxy walls and jagged hills, contained within a very arcadey presentation. 

  I feel that one of the biggest marks against the detailing for Habitat comes in the form of these outdoor sections. Most WADs will make an attempt to provide a sense of scale in how they create the borders, creating layers to separate the player from the immediate edge of the level. A map like Hangar has varying sky heights around the buildings to provide the illusion of a more complicated construct, specifically speaking of the southern gate from the Blue Armor. Habitat has flat marble walls that cover the entirety of the playable area of these areas, with nothing to bust up their repetition. None of the sky is used to any illusory effect, despite having a lot of opportunity to assist something akin to the wooden arch by the exit, or the awkwardly long and tall streams to the Green Armors. Having such vast amounts of empty nothingness without variation is not something unique to Habitat, or even to this WAD for the time, but it comes about in such consistency and shamelessness. 

  Every idea for combat is isolated and exasperated upon its conception. The Shotgunners will likely never escape the secrets tunnels into the pipes on account of how complicated the doors into them are. The map supplies you with an Invulnerability to handle a whopping eight Spectres, and then forces you to march through a horde of Imps that are in the complete opposite direction of the accessible exit to unleash a coverless Arch-Vile. Getting to the Blue Key requires you to walk through a midtexture wall, one that hides yet another coverless Arch-Vile. Even the Chainsaw is given to you in a chokepoint that allows you to take on the sudden group of Pinkies one by one without even moving, which also happen to be sitting on a secret filled with a very useful nothing. Even the Yellow Key fight can simply be walked away from, as the Arch-Vile will either come late out of the teleporter, or be unable to catch a sprinting player down the hallway. In fact, not a single key in this map actually matters, as the trigger to open the way to the Berserk, leading to the exit, is simply a line on the floor of a nukage vat that becomes more apparent after pressing a switch blocked by Yellow Bars. That line is there the entire time, and any player that knows where it is can simply trigger it before going through any of the level. So, through both its enigmatic elements and inability to keep itself together, I frankly have no distinction between any part of this map being optional or not. 

  “AimShootKill” does its best to have semblance in a map that sucks semblance from all it touches. It’s a fine track in isolation, passable even in the original Doom titles, but it is perhaps this flexibility that leaves it completely unnoticed in Habitat’s surefire bullheaded brazenness. I have no comments on how this track attempts to work with the map because it doesn’t attempt, and for good reason.

  All joy that I mustered from this map was bastardized and unintentional. It is rooted in the same psychology that makes car crashes difficult to look away from. For all of its pain, it doesn’t bloat into overstaying its welcome, and is still one of the most memorable maps in the WAD. Everyone needs to experience Habitat once in their life, and while I will never call it good, I will never call it unenjoyable either.

[Thelokk]

19 minutes ago, General Roasterock said:

Ok, here we go

 

Map 22: Habitat

 

 

While I could go on for a while about this often unjustly maligned oddball of a map, I will just point out how closely it plays on its name: the tunnel section closely resembles many of the various underground human habitat proposals for eco-living that came out of the Seventies' speculative architecture movement. Relatively rare for a map to actually evoke this well what it's named after.

[General Roasterock]

20 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

the tunnel section closely resembles many of the various underground human habitat proposals for eco-living that came out of the Seventies' speculative architecture movement.

I think this point came at me so suddenly that I had to consider why I hadn’t heard it before. I don’t feel that anyone really gave this map the time of day to connect it to a real structure in its relation to the WAD, let alone inspiration. With something like Shipping/Respawning, it’s pretty cut and dry since office spaces are pretty common around the world. That and the environment was appealing enough in Map 19 to get people to look into the setting more.

Please do go on, I’m looking for that angle that explains what exactly went on here.

[LadyMistDragon]

55 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

 

While I could go on for a while about this often unjustly maligned oddball of a map, I will just point out how closely it plays on its name: the tunnel section closely resembles many of the various underground human habitat proposals for eco-living that came out of the Seventies' speculative architecture movement. Relatively rare for a map to actually evoke this well what it's named after.

I mean, just look into Christopher Buteau's other released map "Spaceport." Even in an unfinished mess like this he obviously made an effort at creating semi-realistic spaces, although not without resisting the impulse to throw some weirdness in there every now and then (the chapel, more specifically). This was the era of Biosphere One, so someone with sufficent awareness could well have had that in mind.

[Alfonso]

There is a similar horde of imps in Plutonia map 25.

Maybe the Casali liked it lol.

But yeah, pretty bold to release a map in a beta state.

id and tnt team really didn't care about quality control that much.

The moving platform error is most likely to happen on Nightmare or with the respawn parameter. Never have a problem with UV on Chocolate.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Alfonso

[ChopBlock223]

6 hours ago, Thelokk said:

the tunnel section closely resembles many of the various underground human habitat proposals for eco-living that came out of the Seventies' speculative architecture movement

Huh?

 

5 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Christopher Buteau's other released map "Spaceport."

I think that map is actually alright, and much better than Habitat.

 

5 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

Please do go on, I’m looking for that angle that explains what exactly went on here.

Seconding. I'd love to see the architectural concepts which may have inspired... whatever these tunnels are.