Vanilla maps pushing the size limit?

[Katamori]

I've read up on vanilla limits again and I started wondering if there's any map that is close to the 32 768 segs limit while conforming to all the other restrictions?

It's easy to create a map that does, but also ignores visplane overflow and similar limits, so I'm curious how it looked like when someone *actually* made a HUGE map that's completely vanilla.

 

Custom textures and TCs are fine.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Katamori

[Pegleg]

On 8/31/2022 at 2:27 PM, Katamori said:

I've read up on vanilla limits again and I started wondering if there's any map that is close to the 32 768 segs limit while conforming to all the other restrictions?

It's easy to create a map that does, but also ignores visplane overflow and similar limits, so I'm curious how it looked like when someone *actually* made a HUGE map that's completely vanilla.

 

Custom textures and TCs are fine.

 

First, let's assume you're excluding the requirement that such maps also don't cause a savegame buffer overflow. In theory, I suppose it would be possible to have a large map that pushed the sidedef limit without triggering an overflow, but I would think that such a map wouldn't have many things in it. It might make a nice walking simulator, of course, but I assume you're talking about maps with other gameplay. So, I'm going to answer with maps that satisfy the other vanilla static limits.

 

This may not be exactly what you were asking for, but according to the wiki:

• Misri Halek by @Mutator (AV Map 20) has a 24,458 sidedefs
• Unstable Journey by @Mechadon (BTSX-E2 Map 25) has 18,383 sidedefs
• Mutabor by @tourniquet (Mutabor Map 01) has 18,115 sidedefs
• Netherworld Citadel by @NaturalTvventy (NEIS E3M7) has 16,188 sidedefs
• Speedtraps for the Bee Kingdom by @Tarnsman and @esselfortium (BTSX-E2 Map 20) has 15,835 sidedefs

There's a nice picture of the layouts of Misri Halek, Unstable Journey, and Speedtraps of the Bee Kingdom in this post.

 

Also, it's not on the wiki, but Temple of the Unholy Trinity by @MAN_WITH_GUN (TMMC2 Map 30) has over 15,000 linedefs, and I think the number of sidedefs is somewhere around 18,000.

 

These are the 6 largest vanilla maps that I can think of.

[esselfortium]

In vanilla, you're likely to run into other limits like the blockmap before you get anywhere near the segs limit.

[Katamori]

10 minutes ago, Pegleg said:

 

First, let's assume you're excluding the requirement that such maps also don't cause a savegame buffer overflow. In theory, I suppose it would be possible to have a large map that pushed the sidedef limit without triggering an overflow, but I would think that such a map wouldn't have many things in it. It might make a nice walking simulator, of course, but I assume you're talking about maps with other gameplay. So, I'm going to answer with maps that satisfy the other vanilla static limits.

 

Yes, that was a limitation I totally forgot about. It's just fair it wasn't mentioned in the article I linked because it's a totally different aspect of limits that's not entirely bound to the map itself and also doesn't prevent playability.

 

Thanks or the extensive answer and the links! Definitely going to take a look at these.

 

29 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

In vanilla, you're likely to run into other limits like the blockmap before you get anywhere near the segs limit.

 

I can fix the title, then, naturally I mean any limit that can be reached first.

[Pegleg]

5 hours ago, Katamori said:

 

5 hours ago, esselfortium said:

In vanilla, you're likely to run into other limits like the blockmap before you get anywhere near the segs limit.

 

I can fix the title, then, naturally I mean any limit that can be reached first.

 

If that's the case, then Speedtraps for the Bee Kingdom definitely runs up against the blockmap limit, as indicated on its wiki page:

"This map runs into blockmap limits and required special optimizations to remain compatible with the vanilla Doom engine."

[esselfortium]

Unstable Journey also runs up against the blockmap limit. Speedtraps just runs up against it even harder, in that ZokumBSP's special blockmap-optimizing features had to be used to make it fit at all. This caused Speedtraps to take 20+ minutes to build the blockmap every time it was saved. It's probably about as far as that limit can realistically be pushed.