how would you feel if AI generated levels reached human-level quality?

[Majin]

in this hypothetical scenario, jimmy neutron the megalomaniacal mastermind creates a program that makes maps indistinguishable from any map made on here. 

 

what do you think will happen to the mapping community?

is there a meaningful difference between AI generation and manual work? 

how would you feel if they were many times better than your own maps in every metric? 

[jmpt16]

On 9/9/2022 at 2:44 PM, Majin said:

in this hypothetical scenario, jimmy neutron the megalomaniacal mastermind creates a program that makes maps indistinguishable from any map made on here. 

 

Missed oportunity to make a Civvie11 John Carmack joke.

 

On 9/9/2022 at 2:44 PM, Majin said:

what do you think will happen to the mapping community?

 

Competition between AI and human mappers, I suppose.

 

On 9/9/2022 at 2:44 PM, Majin said:

is there a meaningful difference between AI generation and manual work? 

 

Depends on how the AI works. Clearly this AI isn't some Unity level "let's jam prefabs together where possible" creator, but human made maps usually have those tricks and directions that an AI may not. An AI may make a functional map, but not a meaningful map, if you catch my drift.

 

On 9/9/2022 at 2:44 PM, Majin said:

how would you feel if they were many times better than your own maps in every metric? 

 

joke's on you I can't map for shit

Edited September 10, 2022 by jmpt16

[Solmyr]

59 minutes ago, Majin said:

in this hypothetical scenario, jimmy neutron the megalomaniacal mastermind creates a program that makes maps indistinguishable from any map made on here. 

It's doomed to fail from the start, Neutron can't invent shit that doesn't backfire spectacularly and doesn't endanger the life of innocent people.

 

59 minutes ago, Majin said:

what do you think will happen to the mapping community?

is there a meaningful difference between AI generation and manual work? 

how would you feel if they were many times better than your own maps in every metric?

• A) It will shrink, as many mappers will loose the will to map, as AI mapping takes over and everyone can get entire megawads in a couple of minutes. New styles of mapping emerge as a response, and niche ones such as puzzle maps become much more popular amongst the human mappers.
• B)Don't really know.
• C)I don't care, i want to improve as a mapper in relation to more skilled human mappers, not a mindless/soulless AI.

 

I wonder if this implies that average 94' maps and myhouse.wads falls on a "subhuman-level" of quality, lol.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Solmyr

[Mystic 256]

I would be depressed :(

[A Handsome Fridge]

Personally I wouldn't care about what kind of levels a AI make and still make my own levels. It's not just the result that counts. I find no satisfaction in just pressing a button without any personal thought or artistic vision involved to make a level.

On community level I'm pretty sure I would get sick and tired of the endless and countless discussions of a map is someones own work or that of a AI that would follow.

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Majin said:

jimmy neutron the megalomaniacal mastermind creates a program that makes maps indistinguishable from any map made on here. 

It exists...

 

[Thelokk]

On a philosphical level one could say that I am also a nature-made AI, so... I'd just play them and be content. Let each dog have their day. 

[heliumlamb]

i would take a crude, untested and possibly unfinished level with many softlocks made by a human any day over the combined efforts of machine learning and procedural generation algorithims. beauty and stability be damned.

 

I feel like we will start to get an understanding of how those algorithims would put together the maps through our own pattern recognition (numbering order of linedefs and sectors probably?) and learn to identify when the New Machine Learning slige is involved in a map's construction.

 

[Decay]

TBH Slige/Oblige already makes better maps than some people, so we've already passed that point.

[RHhe82]

43 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

A) It will shrink, as many mappers will loose the will to map, as AI mapping takes over and everyone can get entire megawads in a couple of minutes. New styles of mapping emerge as a response, and niche ones such as puzzle maps become much more popular amongst the human mappers.

 

I wonder if this would spell doom (pun intended) on Doom community if there was a megawad released every 15 minutes. Even if they were "good" or "great" by human standards, would we lose our appetite? There'd be less room for shared experiences. Although I guess this isn't different from Skillsaw (or [insert your favourite mapper] releasing a megawad every week.

[Thelokk]

4 minutes ago, Decay said:

TBH Slige/Oblige already makes better maps than some people, so we've already passed that point.

 

You know, I'd love to rebut with some passionate comment about the wonders of human imagination and genius, but... you're not really wrong. Been playing some nice OBLIGE/OBSIDIAN maps lately. 

[SplinkWizard]

At Least I know the maps I'm playing were made by a human who asked themselves, "How do I make this fun?" rather than a bunch of computer programs trying to generate something based on a programmer's guidelines. It's more fun to analyse how a person thinks rather than a machine because a machine doesn't think or talk. I think programs will never out do us in terms of media or art. 

[Thelokk]

Just now, SplinkWizard said:

a machine doesn't think 

 

Debatable, nowadays. 

[Herr Dethnout]

3 minutes ago, Thelokk said:

 

Debatable, nowadays. 

A machine can't think or talk by itself, needs a set of rules made by humans for that. For example, the chat IA (Like Cleverbot) only repeats or reinterprets text that humans made previously, the primary reason why that thing starts to say a lot of nosense.

Same for generating random things.

[Ravendesk]

Good luck teaching AI how to make cl9 scrolling floors and friction floors behave properly in gzdoom.

[Thelokk]

6 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

A machine can't think or talk by itself, needs a set of rules made by humans for that.

 

Exactly the same as human beings. 

[dasho]

I would be stunned that I had even lived long enough to see such a day. It would mean that AI is purely sentient and is capable of creativity and intuition. I may be biased, as I think OBSIDIAN is rather nice, but it is still the sum of the permutations of its parts. To be indistinguishable from an experienced human is leagues away.

[Pechudin]

I listened to a podcast about AI generated "art", and how they thought art implied intent. Like, pictures of galaxies or pretty flowers are amazing, breathtaking even, but they are not art. An AI generated level would lack this intent, unless it is sentient.

 

I reckon people would start making maps that relied on gimmicks and storytelling more. Perhaps a swathe of "competent but nothing special" mappers would feel discouraged somewhat (I count myself somewhere around there, on the lower end).

[Thelokk]

I also see another huge assumption bias in a lot of replies to this thread - the largely undefined, unsubstantiated idea that human products are inherently more 'interesting' than machine products. Frankly, at this point in history I'd find far more fascinating to find out what a machine thinks, over another fellow human being's.

 

By the same token, I'd be far more interested in seeing an extreme high-end AI generated map, over yet another 'here is my easy and classic UD replacement for your lunch break'. Unless an AI spontaneously produced such an intent, in that case I'd be doubly interested as it would have somehow fully incorporated DW's groupthink biases. 

[TheFocus]

"cool, more content."

[TheFocus]

12 minutes ago, Pechudin said:

I listened to a podcast about AI generated "art", and how they thought art implied intent. Like, pictures of galaxies or pretty flowers are amazing, breathtaking even, but they are not art. An AI generated level would lack this intent, unless it is sentient.

 

I reckon people would start making maps that relied on gimmicks and storytelling more. Perhaps a swathe of "competent but nothing special" mappers would feel discouraged somewhat (I count myself somewhere around there, on the lower end).

this might just be a philosophical difference, but art doesn't need intent or purpose to be art. just because a sentient being didn't "have intentions", doesn't just make it non-art (or whatever you would call that)

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Lol sorry, but did I really just read that chill UD maps / episode replacements are the result of “DW groupthink bias”?

[mrthejoshmon]

Oh, I know how I would react...

 

[TheFocus]

1 minute ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Lol sorry, but did I really just read that chill UD maps / episode replacements are the result of “DW groupthink bias”?

i know. i think we just found the AI.

[Solmyr]

53 minutes ago, RHhe82 said:

 

I wonder if this would spell doom (pun intended) on Doom community if there was a megawad released every 15 minutes. Even if they were "good" or "great" by human standards, would we lose our appetite? There'd be less room for shared experiences. Although I guess this isn't different from Skillsaw (or [insert your favourite mapper] releasing a megawad every week.

I guess the community would take a major blow as many members will leave the community due to various reasons related to being fed up and/or intimidated about high quality AI megawads and the endless discussions centered on this phenomenon. In the end the community will pull through this crisis as people find a way to separate AI made megawads from human ones, such as a recorded mapping timelapse as a method of authentication, or a less time consuming and more efficient approach.

 

As this is a phenomenon that we will likely witness in the near future, let's hope that when it does happen Bloodshedder and Green Herring decide against terminating idgames and Doomkid doesn't pull the plug on Doomshack too.

[TheFocus]

12 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

I guess the community would take a major blow as many members will leave the community due to various reasons related to being fed up and/or intimidated about high quality AI megawads and the endless discussions centered on this phenomenon. In the end the community will pull through this crisis as people find a way to separate AI made megawads from human ones, such as a recorded mapping timelapse as a method of authentication, or a less time consuming and more efficient approach.

 

As this is a phenomenon that we will likely witness in the near future, let's hope that when it does happen Bloodshedder and Green Herring decide against terminating idgames and Doomkid doesn't pull the plug on Doomshack too.

holy shit. that could really be the end.

[Thelokk]

26 minutes ago, map11has2names said:

i know. i think we just found the AI.

 

Damn, I blew my cover -_-

[Biodegradable]

56 minutes ago, RHhe82 said:

I wonder if this would spell doom (pun intended) on Doom community if there was a megawad released every 15 minutes. Even if they were "good" or "great" by human standards, would we lose our appetite? There'd be less room for shared experiences. Although I guess this isn't different from Skillsaw (or [insert your favourite mapper] releasing a megawad every week.

 

9 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

I guess the community would take a major blow as many members will leave the community due to various reasons related to being fed up and/or intimidated about high quality AI megawads and the endless discussions centered on this phenomenon. In the end the community will pull through this crisis as people find a way to separate AI made megawads from human ones, such as a recorded timelapse as a method of authentication. 

 

20 years ago when @fraggle set an old version of SLIGE to fart out a new megaWAD every single day that's presumably still functioning to this very day(?) and yet, here you all are, 20 years later, still crafting maps. AI can only imitate and replicate the information we give it. It's a curiosity we entertain ourselves with and a potential tool we can use to further push our creativity, but it will never replace it as far as I'm concerned. 

[HotCoffee]

I think this kind of problem with A.I will inevitably happen to every type of creative work (drawing, sculpting, painting....) at one point or another.

A.Is will be able to generate content infinite times better than what a human could make and in just a few milliseconds, we will be left with no purpose in life besides consuming something a computer generated for us and we won't have any reason to create anything.

[Sonikkumania]

Like shit.