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Havok

Any graphically impressive Doom 2 WADs to impress nephew who refuses to play games that have "bad" graphics?

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2 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

I'm not talking about that, i'm talking about bilinear filtering and i assume Havok is talking about that too.

Havok specifically said "CRT monitors have natural smoothing which smoothed out the pixels." He's definitely not talking about bilinear filtering in 1994.

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30 minutes ago, RDETalus said:

Havok specifically said "CRT monitors have natural smoothing which smoothed out the pixels." He's definitely not talking about bilinear filtering in 1994.

And that applies for regular low res, RF/composite TVs, like your Mario 64 example.

 

It does not apply for high-res, VGA CRT PC monitors. Mario 64 would look like the first picture in your comparison on a PC monitor. Doom looked pretty sharp and pixelly on an old PC monitor as well.

 

Also, Havok specifically said "I'll be playing it with the original Doom II enemies but with the pixel smoothed look and the voxel mod" The only option i'm aware of that refers to "pixel smoothing" in modern engines is bilinear filtering. I assume he is using GZDoom since he is also using the voxel mod. Pretty sure there isn't anything related to pixel smoothing in GZDoom, other than bilinear filtering....

 

Edited by TasAcri

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2 hours ago, RDETalus said:

No, Havok is probably right. The CRT monitors of old did have a smoothing / filtering effect. This whole thing with "chunky pixels" with picture perfect sharp edges is supposedly a modern anachronism.

 

Take a look at this comparison between CRT and LCD of Mario 64:

https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status/1432021042286022659

Please do not use a console game (meant to be played on a TV) to explain how computer games looked.

 

A console game was meant to be played on a TV, so at a distance of at least 3 meters between screen and viewer. A computer game was meant to be played on a monitor, so at a distance of about 50 cm between screen and viewer. Computer screens, even back then in the 90s, were not blurry. Those things were used for word processing and CAD and publishing, so think people would have wanted blurriness when working? Just apply some sort of blurry smear filter on your screen while you're writing a thesis in Word and tell me how long you can stand to work like this.

 

Computer monitors have always been sharp. Even when they were just 320x200 pixels, those were sharp pixels. No blurriness allowed.

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29 minutes ago, Gez said:

Please do not use a console game (meant to be played on a TV) to explain how computer games looked

Fine, you are correct with the distinction between TV monitor and computer monitor; I never made such a distinction in the first place when I was talking about CRT monitors. However Doom is a console game as well, probably more so to me because of Doom SNES and Doom 64.

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1 hour ago, RDETalus said:

 However Doom is a console game as well, probably more so to me because of Doom SNES and Doom 64.

Doom 64 is a different game entirely from its predecessors rather than a port, so that's besides the point. Every single modern port of those, meanwhile, is based entirely on their PC versions. The console ports are hardly relevant here.

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29 minutes ago, Budoka said:

The console ports are hardly relevant here

It's an argument about "how DOOM really looked back then on CRT monitors" and my frame of reference is the SNES version since that is that first DOOM I played.

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12 hours ago, 7Mahonin said:

If not, then perhaps he just isn't much of a gamer and will find other hobbies of interests as he matures.

 

(Context important)

I hate it when people say this.  Just because a person doesn't like older games, doesn't mean he is not a gamer. 

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1 hour ago, IcarusOfDaggers said:

 

(Context important)

I hate it when people say this.  Just because a person doesn't like older games, doesn't mean he is not a gamer. 

No, you misrepresent what I was saying. It isn’t the fact that they don’t like old games, from my experience if all they care about is graphics then they likely aren’t much of a gamer in the long run. Everyone I’ve encountered like that eventually finds other hobbies that are of more interest to them. 

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On 10/6/2022 at 10:48 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

If he's using modern Call of Duty games as a benchmark for graphics in a game, I doubt even Total Chaos would impress him in any way.

I would have to agree. HOWEVER, depending on his age, you may want to direct him to the likes of doom 2016 or doom eternal, which have awesome graphics. Maybe down the line, he'll shift from fortnite and call of duty to the likes of plutonia or any one of the many fan created maps and mods for doom or even selaco and even metal hellsinger.

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23 hours ago, RDETalus said:

No, Havok is probably right. The CRT monitors of old did have a smoothing / filtering effect. This whole thing with "chunky pixels" with picture perfect sharp edges is supposedly a modern anachronism.

 

Take a look at this comparison between CRT and LCD of Mario 64:

https://twitter.com/CRTpixels/status/1432021042286022659

nah, doom was still chunky af even on crt monitors. here's a pic of it at its native resolution on my crt

 

20221007_235308.jpg

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23 minutes ago, roadworx said:

nah, doom was still chunky af even on crt monitors

Perhaps it was, but I first played SNES Doom on TV. I wasn't really thinking about the difference between TV and computer when I argued that

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My point was that the difference goes beyond that. The graphics engine for SNES Doom isn't even the same as the one from DOOM.EXE. The same applies to all the other console ports, that's why it doesn't matter.

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3 minutes ago, Budoka said:

My point was that the difference goes beyond that. The graphics engine for SNES Doom isn't even the same as the one from DOOM.EXE

But there are still technical differences between a TV monitor and a computer monitor, right? Therefore, even a true DOOM game running on a TV monitor would still have some amount of filtering that a computer monitor wouldn't have.

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On 10/6/2022 at 1:49 PM, Budoka said:

Doom Eternal really isn't a bad suggestion honestly, maybe starting on easy mode

 

It is for a 10-year-old. The game has so many systems that someone of that age isn't gonna be able to wrap their head around all of them. Not to mention the strategy-driven nature of the gameplay - I doubt a child that's still some time away from entering teenage is gonna have the reflexes and decision-making skills to be able to put up with Doom Eternal's gameplay loop for long. Playing on the easiest difficulty won't help either.

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10 hours ago, MFG38 said:

 

It is for a 10-year-old. The game has so many systems that someone of that age isn't gonna be able to wrap their head around all of them. Not to mention the strategy-driven nature of the gameplay - I doubt a child that's still some time away from entering teenage is gonna have the reflexes and decision-making skills to be able to put up with Doom Eternal's gameplay loop for long. Playing on the easiest difficulty won't help either.

 

It really depends. You can use heat-blast plasma rifle as a pretty universal and reliable crutch even on UV, nevermind some low difficulty. But marauders and gladiator can be a real pain in the rear.

 

Honestly, I would suggest Doom 2016 on 2nd difficulty setting. It is pretty straifgtforward, and has some fun weapon variety. But then again, searching for secrets to get weapon upgrade points can be frustrating, if the exploration is not your cup of tea...

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15 hours ago, roadworx said:

nah, doom was still chunky af even on crt monitors. here's a pic of it at its native resolution on my crt

 

20221007_235308.jpg

 

I never said Doom on a CRT didn't have chunky pixels, just that the CRT had smoother looking pixels than a present day source port where you keep the chunky pixels. You've actually proved my point with your picture. Look at the gun and the hand holding it compared to THIS video where the hand and gun looks pixelated while the CRT version does not. Maybe it's the scanlines that contribute to the smoothing on a CRT, I don't know. Maybe it's the upscaling to 1080p on an LCD monitor that makes the pixelation worse, who knows.

Edited by Havok

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On 10/7/2022 at 7:02 AM, TasAcri said:

 

I'm not talking about that, i'm talking about bilinear filtering and i assume Havok is talking about that too.

 

Also, If you play Super Mario 64 on a 1994 high-res PC monitor, it would look like the first pic.

 

Did the Playstation have pixellated graphics on old CRTs or not?

 

That's what i'm talking about. Bilinear filtering was NOT a thing in DOOM in 1994. Come on :/

 

 

DjcxhNHU4AEoxPC.jpg

 

I hate how nearly all PS1 game footage on YouTube is all pixellated to hell and some games also have a checkerboard effect over the whole picture. It makes the games look much worse than what they actually were and I hear experienced YouTubers talk about how the graphics haven't aged well because they think that's how the graphics looked back in the day. On a CRT TV PS1 games did NOT look badly pixellated nor did they have a very obvious checkerboard pattern over the whole picture. They looked smooth on a CRT TV. You can turn the smoothing option on, on a PS3 to pretty much see what a PS1 game would have looked like on a CRT TV back in the day. Or use a retrotink on a PS1 with the smoothing turned on when playing on a modern LCD TV.

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On 10/9/2022 at 12:07 AM, Havok said:

 

I hate how nearly all PS1 game footage on YouTube is all pixellated to hell and some games also have a checkerboard effect over the whole picture. It makes the games look much worse than what they actually were and I hear experienced YouTubers talk about how the graphics haven't aged well because they think that's how the graphics looked back in the day. On a CRT TV PS1 games did NOT look badly pixellated nor did they have a very obvious checkerboard pattern over the whole picture. They looked smooth on a CRT TV. You can turn the smoothing option on, on a PS3 to pretty much see what a PS1 game would have looked like on a CRT TV back in the day. Or use a retrotink on a PS1 with the smoothing turned on when playing on a modern LCD TV.

 

Pixellation and dithering are two different things.

 

Yes, old CRTs with composite cables used to blend the dithering patterns. So the checkerboard pattern you are talking about was not nearly as visible.

 

Pixellation though, i disagree. PS1 games where just as badly pixellated on CRTs. That's because the Playstation did not support texture filtering. The first console that had this was the N64 and it's games appeared blurry as a result because filtering low-res textures makes things look blurry.

 

DOOM on PC didn't suffer from bad dithering but the textures and sprites would look heavily pixelated up close. If you gonna use GZDoom and use filtering to filter the textures, all you doing is make it look blurry. Now i said this looks worse but that's my opinion. Pixelated or blurry, pick your poison i guess.

 

If you really want to make DOOM look better, you should use an HD texture mod, one that uses the same art and doesn't change the art design. I'm using one and the textures look pretty good up close, without even using any filtering. But the sprites will still look pixelated, though you said you want to use voxels so that's not a problem for you i guess.

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On 10/7/2022 at 3:37 PM, 7Mahonin said:

No, you misrepresent what I was saying. It isn’t the fact that they don’t like old games, from my experience if all they care about is graphics then they likely aren’t much of a gamer in the long run. Everyone I’ve encountered like that eventually finds other hobbies that are of more interest to them. 

Oh, in that case, the reason is, quite sadly, very simple. You just realize that there really is an absence of content in the gaming these days... All the games that look good, also behave the same. 

Oh, about old games that still look good, i'm not sure if the dude would play racing games or not, but Most Wanted 2005 (you have to pirate it sadly or find in second hand shops, ea doesn't sell it anymore) is exceptionally good looking for it's age, especially on xbox.


Doom sadly does not make the cut, unless you play one of the otex maps. 

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Why are you talking about giving the 10 year old San Andreas or Doom 2016 D: If my mum had seen me playing those at that age she’d have had an aneurysm.

 

(Once I asked her if she could buy Quake 4 on my behalf because someone at her work was selling their games second-hand, and she was massively hesitant at its violence. I was living in my own flat and was 22 years old!)

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Maybe try to get him into Doom sideways a little. The remastered Serious Sam ep1 and 2 look pretty good and play much more like Doom and Quake than Call of Duty. If he enjoys the gameplay try moving to the Quake remaster then onto Doom. If that doesn't work well maybe he'll change as he matures, he's got to find some game he enjoys that doesn't have AAA graphics. Maybe he genuinely prefers modern military shooters over old school ones though, I guess some people must.

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I know everyone hates him now but Tormentor 667's map set's might suit his taste's. He knew how to push doom's graphical fidelity to it limit's, Blade of Agony and Ultimate TNT especially.

 

Just make sure you get him the 3.1 version of BOA and not the uncensored 3.0 version.

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Also something else I think is worth mentioning.

I would recommend NOT letting him join any Doom discord server's until he older and properly knows right from wrong.

There is not short supply of Doom server's that are poorly managed and full of people being racist.*

 

Make sure he stays on Doomworld until he's older and he should grow up to be an accepting and respectable member of the community.

 

*(Disclaimer: Big discord server's (Hellforge, Entryway, Euroboros etc) are nothing like this and are very well moderated, It's only the smaller one's on Disboard are poorly managed)

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