Where could Doom 2 enemies have been introduced in Doom 1?

[SPG]

Let's pretend all of the Doom 2 enemies were introduced in Doom 1 (not including Episode 4). What Episode and Map do you think they'd appear in first and why? Paint the picture for us. We'll assume UV difficulty unless folks say otherwise in their post.

 

Here's how I see it:

• Chaingunner: E1M9. A military base seems ideal for these to show up. If we don't count the secret map, I see maybe 1 appear as early as E1M4 but I think that might be too early. I think they can comfortably show up by E2M2 at the latest though.
• Hell Knight: Perhaps 1 as a boss type as early as E1M4 but I think given the intro of the boss fight in E1M8, they'd be more appropriate in E2M3  I think they could replace a lot of Baron uses in at least E2, and on the easy difficulties, they could even replace the Barons in E1M8, allowing the Baron to be introduced on easy difficulties in E2M9 or even E3.
• Revenant: While this could be a "boss" as early as E1M6, I think this should be saved for E2... say maybe by E2M4 by one of the 'circular' areas. They can comfortably show up no later than E3M4 where there are some areas open enough for the revenant's homing attacks.
• Mancubus: definitely no earlier than E2M3 with the wider spaces. As with a lot of other Doom 2 enemies, I think E2M9 could  maybe have worked well as the "sneak peek" to also play up use of infighting, and since they benefit from more space, they'd be ideal for no later than E3M5's open courtyard area.
• Arachnatron: same as the Mancubus, though I could see them being used as late as E3M7 as a tease for the final fight, or heck, just only in the final fight.
• Pain Elemental. I think the Caco should have its own space in Episode 2, so I think E3M1 would be a nice "you are in Hell now" intro -- instead of multiple cacos at the entrance, it's one Pain Elemental. If not then, I'd say be E3M3 at the latest.
• Archvile. Absolutely no earlier than E2M7. I could honestly see it as a penultimate boss in E3M7. Probably fun to include in E3M9 towards the end.
• Wolfenstein SS: Doesn't really make sense outside the context of Doom 2's secret maps but perhaps as a "secret" in E1M4 back when there was a swastika in the level, or E3M9 as a denizen in hell, but as-is, probably doesn't make the cut.
• Commander Keen: Also doesn't necessarily make sense, but could be the ending trigger to either E2 or E3's secret levels.
• Icon of Sin: not make the cut as-presented. The enemy spawner MAYBE could be used in E3M8, but that would probably just muck up the fight with the Spider Mastermind.

What do you all think?

Edited October 19, 2022 by SPG

[Devalaous]

The Playstation version of Doom had Doom 2 enemies interspersed through the campaign on Ultra Violence only, and it was often a shock to find them. They had very little reasoning behind the appearances though. However its always made me wonder, what would the Doom 1 campaign be like, as a 32 level megawad for Doom 2? Same textures, no episodic breaks, and the full Doom 2 monster arsenal. On the other hand, it also makes me want a Doom 2 reimagined as a three episode campaign for Ultimate Doom, with the maps rebalanced for Doom 1's bestiary and no SSG.

[Shepardus]

E1M1

[Kyka]

33 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

E1M1

 

A perfect and subtle blend of monster balance. Because slow burn is soooo overrated. Get all those new monsters in there stat!

 

 

[Sonikkumania]

I guess Hell Knights would've been a formidable enemy in episode 2, and Pain Elementals in 3. Arch Vile would've been a sub-boss for a secret level.

 

I consider the cybernetic enemies to belong in Doom 2's urban atmosphere better.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

If I could go back in time, which I have done before, I'd put the Icon of Sin on e1m1 just so people would be able to start complaining about it immediately, therefore forcing id software to not only patch it out of e1m1, but also swear to never ever use it again, and then they would have to come up with a real boss, and then I'd be a hero, not only because DOOM 2 would have a real final boss, but also because we would get to live in a history/present/future where otherwise-cool pwads don't have obligatory shitty IoS fights at the end, also this is a run-on sentence.

[Rykzeon]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

On the other hand, it also makes me want a Doom 2 reimagined as a three episode campaign for Ultimate Doom, with the maps rebalanced for Doom 1's bestiary and no SSG.

• The Unleash of All Evil
• Farewell to Demons
• Dead Reckoning (because doomguy trying to close the hell portal from the hell itself :p)

[ReaperAA]

I feel that I would keep E1's monsters as mostly exclusively former humans/zombie tier until E1M8. So:

• Chaingunners would be introduced in either E1M9 or as late as E1M5
• Hell Knights would either replace or complement barons starting from E2M3
• Revenants could be at around E2M2 with 1 or 2 in the crate area
• Mancubus and Arachnotrons could be introduced somewhere in later maps of E2
• Pain Elementals should be no earlier than E3M1. Although E3M2 would also be nice introduction
• Archvile should be no earlier than E3M3 I feel

[Gez]

The PlayStation version put chaingunner and pain elemental right in E1M1...

 

I'd go with a mostly thematic approach, rather than a pure gameplay one. Notably one thing I'd keep is no cybernetic demon before The Cyberdemon, so arachnotron, mancubus, and revenant are all in E3.

• I agree with chaingunner on E1M9, that's a good spot.
• Hell knights would replace barons in E2 and next. Let the Bruiser Brothers keep their mystique. Would also recolor SP_DUDE6 to show a dead knight instead of a dead baron.
• Arch-vile would be introduced in E2M5. In that marble area where there's the secret exit. You even have a MARBFAC2 texture use as a warning, it's perfect.
• Pain elementals would replace cacodemons in E3M2. Perfect thematic fit, it's full of lost souls.
• Revenants in E3M3, as it's pretty much a corrupted techbase layout, and it's got a lot of skulls on its textures.
• Mancubus in E3M6, they'd fit well with the general chaos of this open-world style map.
• Arachnotrons along with their "mom" in E3M8. Introducing them earlier than the spiderdemon would ruin the mastermind's mystique, and that's pretty much all it has... (I also would put a no infighting flag so that their plasma can't hurt the boss, and they don't try to attack it.)

[Devalaous]

24 minutes ago, Rykz said:

• The Unleash of All Evil
• Farewell to Demons
• Dead Reckoning (because doomguy trying to close the hell portal from the hell itself :p)

 

They do have official names already: 'The Space Station', 'The City' and 'Hell'. Uninspired, yes, but those names have been around in official stuff for a long time. Whats funny there is that 'Space Station' is incorrect: Doom 2's first episode is a Spaceport on Earth, not a Space Station.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

For a more serious answer: I really don't think that it would matter much when you introduce the enemies, as long as they are used well. An intelligent mapper could probably figure figure out a good way of implementing an archvile on e1m1. Extreme example obviously, and I personally wouldn't add a "boss monster" (always thought that was a silly term for strong enemies in DOOM) that soon, but it could be done.

 

I'd mainly just add the monsters based on how  well they fit thematically. For example, I'd probably save Revenant and Archie Vile for episode 3, because they look nice in Hell.

 

I'll just go by episode, not map:

 

Chaingunner: E1

Hell Knight: E1 (they could be used to "lead up" to the Barons)

Archvile: E3

Revenant: E3

Mancubus: E2/E3

Pain Elemental: E2/E3

Arachnotron: E2 (you could make it look like the crates are supposed to be shipments of ham)

[Dravencour]

Let's see here:

 

Chaingunners: I would put these guys either very late in E1, or in E2.

Hell Knights: Since the first Hell Noble fight proper is at the end of E1, E2 should be where these guys first appear.

Revenants: E2 is where I'd put these guys, as something of a warmup for some of the nastier monsters and especially the Cyberdemon.

Mancubi: I'd like to save these guys for E3.

Pain Elementals: E2 or E3 for these guys, because at this point, you'll have fought a bunch of Lost Souls.

Arachnotrons: I would put these guys in E3 in the levels leading up to the Spidey fight, or perhaps as part of the Spidey fight proper.

Arch-Viles: E3, presented as the biggest sign that yes, you are in HELL.

[Redneckerz]

This reads like a topic that has been made before, and sure enough (Almost to the letter!):

And also:

Plenty o' answers.

 

My answer would be Lost Souls.

[Rudolph]

5 hours ago, Devalaous said:

However its always made me wonder, what would the Doom 1 campaign be like, as a 32 level megawad for Doom 2? Same textures, no episodic breaks, and the full Doom 2 monster arsenal. On the other hand, it also makes me want a Doom 2 reimagined as a three episode campaign for Ultimate Doom, with the maps rebalanced for Doom 1's bestiary and no SSG.

Are you saying such megawads have yet to be made?

 

Because I would totally play them! :D

 

Anyway, Xaser's excellent Doom: The Lost Episode - which is essentially a pre-SIGIL fifth episode that bridges Ultimate Doom and Doom II - had the surprisingly good idea of not only gradually introducing Doom II monsters but also making Arch-Viles (using reworked sprites and redubbed as "Void Lords") mini-bosses in E5M8. But I suppose previous suggestions on this thread make more sense, as they apply to Ultimate Doom as a whole.

[E1M10]

Doom 2 pissed me off as a teen. I remember hating the levels, they were just this giant abstract shit-blob of brown and gray.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, E1M10 said:

Doom 2 pissed me off as a teen. I remember hating the levels, they were just this giant abstract shit-blob of brown and gray.

Yeah, but that is not what the topic is about.

[TheSlipgateStudios]

I'd say Episode 4 Thy Flesh Consumed should've had Doom 2 monsters since it was made after it.

[Rudolph]

I wonder if it would have been fair to have the Chaingunners progressively replace Zombiemen. I know Plutonia's use of Chaingunners has proven to be rather controversial, but at the same time, it would feel thematically appropriate and help reinforce the feeling that Hell's forces are getting stronger.

[Pegleg]

10 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

it would feel thematically appropriate and help reinforce the feeling that Hell's forces are getting stronger

 

That's not a bad idea, and would sort of make sense, at least with Romero's feeling about it. I remember reading somewhere in an interview with him where he talked about one of the things he was always confused by in games were the enemies. Why were you fighting the same monsters in the last few levels that you fought in the first few levels? I could easily see him pushing for newer monsters to start phasing out others as you progressed.

[Kyka]

The big question is would we also be introducing the super shotgun, because that would have a huge influence on where the new bestiary gets introduced.

 

Also, Hell knights? More like cheap recolor knights that have no business being in Doom1. Or Doom2 for that matter.

[Paf]

archviles in e1m8, e2m2, e2m8 to guide the cyburger, e3m4, e3m7, e3m8, and archviles in e4m1, e4m2, e4m6, e4m7, e4m8, and e4m9

 

 

[Zulk RS]

9 hours ago, Devalaous said:

 However its always made me wonder, what would the Doom 1 campaign be like, as a 32 level megawad for Doom 2?

 

I would play the shit out of something like that.

[Kyka]

48 minutes ago, Paf said:

archviles in e1m8, e2m2, e2m8 to guide the cyburger, e3m4, e3m7, e3m8, and archviles in e4m1, e4m2, e4m6, e4m7, e4m8, and e4m9

 

 

 

you forgot e1m1, e1m2, e1m3, e1m4, e1m5, e1m6, e1m7, e1m9, e2m1, e2m3, e2m4, e2m5, e2m6, e2m7, e2m9, e3m1, e3m2, e3m3, e3m5, e3m6, e3m9, e4m3, e4m4, and e4m5, Mr. "needs more archviles."  

 

pffff. :D

[Jayextee]

Imagine seeing all those windows in the start area of E1M4 and not wanting to fill them with chaingunners. I am disappoint.

[NiGHTMARE]

I'm actually planning to include some of the Doom 2 bestiary in my reimagining of Doom 1, using new sprites. My plans align with many of the ideas in this thread:

 

Chaingunner: The very end of E1M3

Hell Knight: Replaces barons in E2 onwards (2x the number though)

Pain Elemental: The beginning of E3M1

 

There will also be a few new enemies, including the barons in E1M8, being replaced by KDIZD's bruisers, a caco-family mini-boss in E2, various enemies to replace hitscanners in E3, and a new boss for E4.

[talond66]

Psst,

 

enjoy the fun with @Noiser's DOOM 2 for DOOM 1 Mod: a randomizer mod for ZDoom and GZDoom that will carefully spawn a few Doom 2 monsters along side the regular ones in Doom 1 maps, replacing certain enemies and spawning them in different locations each time you play.

 

After I have found this little gem it's the default now in my mod lists.

 

best regards 

[TheFocus]

Chaingunner's being introduced in E1M9 makes sense to me, good idea.

 

Mancubi-E2M5, right at that open area with the vines and Barons.

 

Pain Elementals- E3M2. at the Plasma Gun secret, instead of all the Lost Souls being in that opening separately, imagine one or two Pain Elementals there instead.

 

Aractnotron- throw a few of them in at the final boss with the Mastermind.

 

Revenant- E3M7. i think they would fit in well with the big room near the start.

 

Hell Knight- idk, sometime early on, like E1M3.

 

Archvile- E2M9. imagine balancing the infighting with an Archvile involved.

 

Wolfenstein SS- might be an odd choice, but i say just use them throughout late E2-E3. especially levels with a lot of tight corridors, like House Of Pain.

 

Commander Keen- no idea.

[Rudolph]

This reminds me: did American McGee or whoever designed Playstation Doom maps ever explain his thought process when adding Doom 2 monsters to Doom 1 maps? Like, why put a Pain Elemental in one of E1M1's secrets?

[out_of_service]

I would have chaingunners appear in the later parts of Knee-deep in The Dead. The Hell Knight, Pain Elemental and Mancubus in The Shore of Hell. And finally the Revenant and Arch-vile would show up in Episode 3.

[BaileyTW]

The red of the chaingunner makes me feel it'd be debuted in episode 2, probably e2m5. I believe this only because i want to believe in a just god and a just god would never allow a chaingunner to be placed outside the starting room door of e1m7 which would happen if they were used that episode.

Edited October 22, 2022 by BaileyTW