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Brad_tilf

Are the new source ports getting TOO good?

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I've noticed, especially with ZDOOM specific creations that the levels are becoming very non-doomish. Sure, the special effects are cool, slopes, lightning, earthquakes, all of that but in the meantime it seems that those maps that take advantage of them are less doomish and more quakish with similar effects to that game and the same basic feeling. I enjoy the wads immensely when done properly - such as Tormentors latest map, but are we getting too far away from the original game?
I think Zdoom and Legacy especially are excellent ports and allow mappers to do things they otherwise couldn't possibly get away with (take my latest map, Bloodworks, for example) but is it going to far?
Thats my question. What do you think?
By the way - Bloodworks is NOT zdoom specific but DOES require the use of a port because the original game just couldn't handle alot of the stuff I did. Check out some of the pics and stuff here:
http://www.doomwadstation.suhost.com/descent/bloodworks.html

I think you'll see why the original game couldn't deal.
So,
what do you think about the new ports?

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How doom will go is up to the doomer behind the editing screen, if John Carmack had the time/ability in 93, I believe he would have loved for the doom engine to be so advanced as it is now then

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When I was rather new to the internet I found DOOM web sites and noticed the source-based engines. I was pretty much awed back then, since I thought "uh, some kids, people 'like me' are altering and enhancing the engine of this great game... is that even possible?" Also I noticed that they (first legacy and then zdoom) allowed you more options, like mouselook and jumping and whatnot, giving DOOM features that games like Duke3D and Hexen or even Quake had. and at first I eagerly used all these features and kept up to date in respect to the development of these engines (at least up to where I understood.) But gradually I lost interest for this very reason you mention, especially when I started watching the fast-paced, exciting DM and speedrunning demos available on the net.

I started seeing that the main attraction to DOOM, in addition to the avalability of add-on maps for it, was its fluid, bloody and simple playability. So I started using the "purity" line engines like boom and mbf (and then prboom) and then finally stopped using even those, since, there is no real need for them, and even they add options and features that more or less get in the way of that standard of simplicity and action that's the heart of DOOM. I do use zdaemon once in a while, to play multi-player on servers with classic settings, but other than that I tend to stay away from source engine mods.

I'm probably pretty extreme in relation to the standard reader of these forums, but still, there's a good number of players that, even when they do use source mods, do prefer "classic" playability. Then a few are more varied in tastes, and some like only very undoomish stuff (strange TCs, a lot of scripting, etc.)

The title for your WAD on the page at the link should probably not say it's for "zdoom or legacy" since that might scare away people that would prefer to use boom or prboom to play (and these can be used for it, according to what you say on the text below.) Just saying it's for a "limitless" or boom-compatible engine in the description is enough and more exacting (noting, as you did, on what it doesn't work correctly.)

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I warn you and tell you to heed my warning that the source ports, and the way they're getting so advanced is the ONLY thing that keeps Doom alive. Everyone needs change, for better or worse, because after so long everyone gets tired of something repetitive and looks for something new. As long as we have new stuff to add to make us want to edit and play Doom more, the longer Doom lives. When we run out, well, Doom out.

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Ed said:

How doom will go is up to the doomer behind the editing screen, if John Carmack had the time/ability in 93, I believe he would have loved for the doom engine to be so advanced as it is now then

Amen!

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quote:
I warn you and tell you to heed my warning that the source ports, and the way they're getting so advanced is the ONLY thing that keeps Doom alive. Everyone needs change, for better or worse, because after so long everyone gets tired of something repetitive and looks for something new. As long as we have new stuff to add to make us want to edit and play Doom more, the longer Doom lives. When we run out, well, Doom out.

I do agree with you up to a point. But when it stops being DOOM then its probably too much. There are tons of mappers out there putting out quality work all the time and the imagination and heart that goes into those is unbelievable. Yes, some features are nice, look up - down, etc... but I still would like to see the game stay basically DOOM and not something else. So in that respect, I'm glad that there are people who still want to do new things but keep to the original intent as well which alot of mappers do.

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I think that, used properly, the new map features can be pretty neat. I also like to use the bot ports, especially Doombot, on deathmatch maps. The port features that annoy me, are the ones that affect aspects of the game other than what is designed into a map. I don't like to play ports that do these strange things, unless there's an option to turn them off, or a map requires the port in question. Some examples:

Transluscent sprites - The transluscent projectiles look pretty wussy if you ask me, compared to the original engine. As for transluscent spectres/blur powered-up marines, I like the haze effect a lot better, I think it looks cool.

Archvile Ghost "bug" fixed - This one I think is kind of pointless, and it messes up some maps that were designed around it.

Dynamic lighting - Pretty much a pointless eye-candy feature. Something to take note of, try Ultimate Doom map E2M6 with no dynamic lighting, and then again with dynamic lighting, and see how badly this feature screws up the effect of the dark area.

Sky stretched - When the port authors added mouselook, they found that the sky wasn't tall enough. So they added a sky stretch feature that makes the sky double height (and ugly) so that if you look up it won't tile. But in Doom Legacy, you can't turn sky stretching off. Great.

Models - Sure, they can look good, but one thing I notice about JDoom's models is that they're all too big. Things look a lot larger than they do as sprites, causing guns to take up half the screen and monster's body parts to go into walls and ceilings. Also, the items that would normally always face the player have sides, which sounds like it would be good, but sometimes causes items to face in directions that make their positioning look strange.

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While I can admit to enjoying the ports, I only use them for the smooth control and Hi Res that they provide. I never use mouse look or jump or anything else. In my mind it takes away from my personal experience on an individual map.

My own maps only have detail levels like or only slightly better than the "REAL" game. I want everyone to have a chance to play them. I am a purist in that respect. The levels run very fast even on slower systems. I try to keep with what I believe was the orig. intent of the game.

All the fancy scripting and such is wasted on me. I find it interesting but don't replay very many times those maps that use it heavily.

I feel the game was meant to be an all out war against the monsters. It iritates me when a script stalls me in place while it runs. I want to KILL something, as it was meant to be.

I understand that there are plenty of people that want to push the new ports to their limits, and it is fine for them. Their hard work is what provided me with the ports I use right now.

Just give me a loaded SSG and a hoard of monsters and let me go after them. I'll be in tall cotton.

I know there are plenty of guys that do not agree, but it is the differences in people that make the world go 'round. Just my 2 cents worth.

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I love the original Doom feel and gameplay, but you can get too much of "Kill monster, find key, exit level". I want it to be a little deeper than that.

Zdoom is not quakish. It features the same monsters, sounds and weapons as the original doom. Zdoom adds new features for YOU to use. It's up to YOU if you want to look up/down. It's up to the editor if he wants to use these new features. Why limit him? Sure, there are plenty of Zdoom levels with a non Doom theme/atmosphere, but there are also a lot of vanilla Doom levels which do the exact same thing! Does AlienTC feel like doom for you? What about Darkening E2? I sure didn't feel like I was playing Doom.

If you do not like ports, don't use them.

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Brad_tilf said:

Yes, some features are nice, look up - down, etc... but I still would like to see the game stay basically DOOM and not something else. So in that respect, I'm glad that there are people who still want to do new things but keep to the original intent as well which alot of mappers do.


Yeah, I too believe "standard" styled maps will continue to be produced in the future (not out of faith, I just see people developing them.) There might be a lot of activity and talk related to advanced features now, especially here at the forums, but it's mostly editors talking (exploring these features, etc.) and doesn't mean that classic styled play will diminish. There's no reason for that. Since an intensive use of advanced features produces a different sort of play (an that is the subject of this thread, basically) it's not something that will replace the "basic" editing style. Just another preference (and some will share them, while others will choose one, according to thier taste.)

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Source ports are vital to the community for 3 reasons: homs, visplanes and savegame buffers. (killing these is easily the most important feature of any port)

As for ZDoom, well most of it's features were already present in Hexen, just the addition of the Boom features and other new stuff (slopes, decorate etc.) is completely new.

For those who worry about being swamped by non-doomish wads: looking at the wads that come through newstuff each week, only a small proportion are made specifically for ZDoom, Legacy etc. - the majority use original triggers/specials and require a general port to remove line limits. Besides, I sometimes prefer something a little different every now and then, which is why I built LTSD the way I did (as that sort of thing hadn't really been seen before in DooM). Like Shaviro said, you can sometimes get too much of simple run-around-get-keys-and-press-switches-type stuff.

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I don't have a problem with the ports. I just hope that we, as mappers, players, etc... don't lose site of the game that we all still love to play with. I thoroughly enjoyed Torment and Torture but I could have done without the "fly" feature which made me wait for it to finish (is that the fly feature or something else?). I do like the ports but I want people to remember the game we are here for.
Develop those Zdoom maps but try to remember to do a few that remind us we are playing doom. The same creatures are nice, even new ones are nice once in awhile - it IS what keeps doom alive. If it weren't for ports I could NEVER have produced my newest map but I didn't go into slopes, or earthquakes on this one either - so it works with several ports. I have have developed wads that use specific features - like the earthquake and deep water, etc... - all very cool. I've done a couple of maps like that but I try to do some that you don't need a specific port for either - such as Descent.
I think I have more non-port type levels than the other way around.
Playing with the new features is fun. Just remember, its DOOM.

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The old stuff hasn't gone away. The new stuff exists alongside it.

Doom exists. Source ports that feel very much like doom exist. If people want to create a level that feels very doomy, fine. They will, and plenty of people will enjoy them, me included.

Source ports that allow you to take the doom engine and turn it into something that feels totally different exist. If people want to create stuff for that, fine. They will, and plenty of people will enjoy them, me included.

With variety comes variety. People have not stopped making doomish maps, but people are now also producing non doomish games based on the very easy to edit doom engine, using it as a resource base for editing and not even trying to pretend they are making a doomy level. LilWhiteMouse's mods stand as recent examples of that, but you could argue every TC since such a thing was invented has done so to a greater or lesser extent. It's just that people now have more ability and more freedom to make more extreme changes to a game they are already very familiar with editing.

This gives me more things to play and more of a wide and varied doom based gaming experience. I am in favour of a simple, no frills doom level, and I am in favour of a total conversion that feels nothing like doom.

If you don't like the non doomy stuff, don't play it. There is still plenty doomy stuff to go round.

Me, I'm glad that every time I download a level I'm not forced to simply be wandering around putting holes in pixelated imps on a 320x200 screen with limited player control with nothing other to do than find the red key, but I don't mind having the opportunity to do it every now and again either.

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The new stuff doesn't detract from the oldschool type of levels at all. On the contrary, more people are drawn to doom that wouldn't go near the game if doom(2).exe were the only options.

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Yes the new stuff just adds, it might not be everybodies cup of tea including mine but it's great for 'Doom' as a whole. I still luv the 'kill monsters, find key, exit level'.

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I feel the same way. The ports ARE changing the game too much. Don't know about the wads, since I basically only play the original levels. I can handle cosmetic differences, like JDoom's lighting and MD2 models. What I can't handle is gameplay changes. I can turn off mouse look and jumping, sure, but what about annoying changes like different physics, the way your weapons react (especially shooting through windows) and speed. ZDoom's gameplay aspect has changed too much for my liking, and though some things are great, like the better map view, animated skies, and boom support for some effects, it's just too different. The sources are getting tweaked TOO much without caring about user input or how it affects the gameplay we know and love.

I'm glad the Doom 64 TC has changed to JDoom instead of ZDoom. I love ZDoom, and used only ZDoom for years. But JDoom holds true to the roots and though scripting, animated skies, pseudo-3D and other stuff has created some roadblocks, everything can be customized perfectly. It's just a matter of learning how to do it. Some people might not like the change, but JDoom is helping us make a true product that's as close to the original as possible.

Graphics and sound changes can be switched off with no difficulty. But gameplay stuff that you CAN'T change, or play a game of vanilla Doom is next to impossible with ZDoom.

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Erik said:

The new stuff doesn't detract from the oldschool type of levels at all. On the contrary, more people are drawn to doom that wouldn't go near the game if doom(2).exe were the only options.


Thats a good point and I have to agree with you. The ports definitely help to keep the game alive. Still, I like a nice, straight forward, doom looking, find, kill, move on kind of level now and again cuz thats what id made and it works. :-)

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Does anyone think that if the source had never been released, Doom would still be an actively played game nearly to the extent that it is?

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If you don't want to use a source port, don't dammit. Do you really have to bitch about something you could just easily change by NOT using it? Geez, and they said I had problems. :P

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elbryan42 said:

The sources are getting tweaked TOO much without caring about user input or how it affects the gameplay we know and love.

It's not like your being forced to play these wads. Your not even paying for them. The people who make them dont get payed either, so let them do whatever they want.
I originally felt the same way about ports, especially after playing massmouth.wad. It was cool and all, but it was no longer doom. So for a while I switched over to JDoom and avoided any ZDoom specific maps.
Then I ran into some video card issues...
For a while I was unable to use all the graphical enhancements of JDoom (it was a weird driver issue). So I decided to go back to ZDoom for a while. Eventually I started playing some of the wads that were created for it and realized that I was missing out.
Nowadays I switch between ZDoom and JDoom depending on my mood. ZDoom isnt ruining anything, it's just giving people more options. Whats wrong with having more options?

Edit: Also, it keeps the game alive in general. Without ports, I wouldnt be able to play due to winxp. Would I have installed win98 just for DooM? Maybe, but I doubt most people would.

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ravage said:

If you don't want to use a source port, don't dammit. Do you really have to bitch about something you could just easily change by NOT using it? Geez, and they said I had problems. :P


Who's bitching?
We're just having a discussion.
Isn't that what the forums are for?

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elbryan42 said:

Long speech


Why are we even having this discussion? People do not HAVE to play Zdoom if they do not like Randy's version of Doom. People do not HAVE to play RTC-3057 if they do not like the Team Future version of Doom. What's the point of complaining about this? You do not pay for Zdoom. Randy does not owe you (talking in general, not just you) anything. I'm sure he and the other port authors would like comments/suggestions, but one thing I know they do not need, is whining. Yes! Whining!

So are you even making a point here? You tell us Zdoom alters gameplay too much, so you play Jdoom instead. You have the freedom to choose! Use it and move on!

Zdoom is not Doom
Zdoom is Zdoom

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The physics seem to have become buggier recently, but I really love ZDoom's gameplay otherwise. The mouse control, especially, is perfect. It's Doom to me.

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Linguica said:

Does anyone think that if the source had never been released, Doom would still be an actively played game nearly to the extent that it is?


I don't, in general, nor do I stop to speculate if some of the people playing with ports would be playing it otherwise if they didn't exist, since this'd be miserly, and if they chose to use ports, they certainly have their reasons. But still, to me playing the game, strictly speaking, is playing it with the old EXEs, or at least in the same way they play.

ravage said:

Geez, and they said I had problems. :P


Maybe they said that because they saw that when they declared their preferences or opinions you barked at them saying they were bitching about yours. I don't think the posts here can be taken as "ports shouldn't exist" or anything like that, since most of the people posting here use them, more as actual ports than mods, though, since what they prefer is the same gameplay as DOOM, but with the benefits of larger maps, hi res, and portability.

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Myk: Sorry, it's just that I'm tired of people complaining about the damndest things.

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Why are people moaning? Hundreds of vanilla doom maps/projects are released every month. It’s not like people who are making half life-ish projects would make vanilla doom maps otherwise.

I as so fed up with the conservative doom idiots telling me how doom SHOULD be played. Last time I checked, I played doom because it was FUN. If mouselook, slops, jumping, ect. still make it FUN, then who cares?

I think what Enjay said sums it up best:

Enjay said:
The old stuff hasn't gone away. The new stuff exists alongside it.

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