Discussion about the Fallout games

[BGreener]

54 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

but what bothers me is seeing people like H.Bomberguy (who again I respect and must credit for helping me rekindle my interest in the Fallout franchise) and Shamus Young (who I just found out about) talk about Fallout 3 as some sort of aberration made by incompetent developers who did not know what they were doing.

Can’t speak for H. Bomber but that does not apply to Shamus. His concerns lie with how they handle their writing and world-building, something he was particularly passionate about with Skyrim as well.

[Ludi]

In all fairness, is Fallout 3 that bad? The combat and all that are fine outside of difficulty scaling, but I have to agree with HBomb that the writing leaves a lot to be desired compared to fallout 2 or even 1. 

 

Fallout 2 is my favorite in the series because the writing is not only top notch, but the player choice is still novel even today. I feel like Fallout 3 took all the pomp and circumstance from the originals without much of the substance that made them interesting.

[BGreener]

31 minutes ago, Ludi said:

In all fairness, is Fallout 3 that bad? The combat and all that are fine outside of difficulty scaling, but I have to agree with HBomb that the writing leaves a lot to be desired compared to fallout 2 or even 1. 

 

Fallout 2 is my favorite in the series because the writing is not only top notch, but the player choice is still novel even today. I feel like Fallout 3 took all the pomp and circumstance from the originals without much of the substance that made them interesting.

3 has its issues and I’m not a fan of all its writing but its far from bad. It can just be hard to go back into if you’ve been spoiled by some of New Vegas’ changes. If you haven’t played NV yet then this isn’t a big concern, and if you want to play it with NV’s improvements you can get some “port grease” ready and combine both New Vegas’ world and Fallout 3’s into one mod.

[Rudolph]

If anything, I find myself disappointed by Fallout 1 & 2's writing, but that might have just been the result of being made to expected more than what the game actually has to offer. Still, I cannot help but find an area like Megaton to be much more dynamic and compelling than their predecessors' counterparts, namely Shady Sands and Klamath: the latter's community almost immediately expects the player to help them with their problems, but once you do, their attitude towards you does not really change much and you do not have much reason to stick around anymore. In contrast, Megaton does not expect much from you initially, but if you do help them, they will make it worth your time; sure, it is not much all things considered and it can be comical how easy it is ruin it all by lifting a random object you are not supposed to, but being given a place to stay, a reliable source of income and even free supplies do go a long way to make you feel welcome and care about treating the population right.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rudolph

[vyruss]

Yeah I actually blow up Megaton every time I want to go through Fallout 3 again.  I then also betray Burke's whole outfit and surrender it to the Ghouls.  I haven't gone for a full-evil playthrough yet in either of 3 or NV...

Actually, now that I think of it I started a playthrough of NV about 2 years ago, got through the Dead Money DLC and just got burnt out on how repetitive the game is (though this might be because I had just finished Oblivion and Fallout 3 the months prior).  I should finish that playthrough of NV again... or maybe start new with an all-evil character this time.

[Mr. Freeze]

The best summation of FO3 was made by Shamus, and it's the one thing that stuck with me the most (slightly paraphrased):

 

Quote

The original Fallout game was a gritty world where you explore the vast California desert in search of a water purification chip. It drew influences from Mad Max, campy 50’s sci-fi movies, and pulpy comics of the same era. It had a streak of pitch-black comedy running throughout it. It wasn’t about the 1950’s, it was about the future that the 1950’s anticipated. It was a game that took place in the future of the past.

 

Bethesda saw this template and concluded that a Fallout game needed to take place in the desert, it needed to be about water, it should contain screwball comedy, and that it should be the 1950’s forever...200 years after a nuclear war, people aren’t going to be forming greaser gangs.

 

[HeatedChocolate]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

200 years after a nuclear war, people aren’t going to be forming greaser gangs.

Well, I mean, why wouldn't you? Tunnel Snakes rule! ^{(That's us, and we rule!)}

In all seriousness, I do enjoy a lot of Bethesda Fallout's retrofuturism, FO4's Boston is one of my favorite fictional skylines because of the variety of building colors and shapes. And they (somewhat) kept some of the deco stylings of the classic ones (Especially those faces on buildings, why would they add those?). FO3 has some good comedy, I remember going to a museum as part of a quest and one of the exhibits in the space area is just straight up the skeleton of an astronaut lost in an accident. Plus the infamous "Fuck you" door never ceases to make me chuckle.

[Rudolph]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Bethesda saw this template and concluded that a Fallout game needed to take place in the desert, it needed to be about water, it should contain screwball comedy, and that it should be the 1950’s forever...200 years after a nuclear war, people aren’t going to be forming greaser gangs.

Wait, Fallout 3 is about water? I just got to Rivet City and I am only now sort of learning about what James had been up to and it is not about finding a water chip for a vault or a G.E.C.K. for a dying village, but rather making the Capital Wasteland as a whole more hospitable. If you ask me, that feels like the logical continuation of the first two Fallout games. Fallout 3 also does not take place in a desert, but the remnants of Washington D.C. and its surroundings; I know Fallout 76 retconned it all by making the region look relatively unaffected by the nuclear war, but here in Fallout 3, the devastated environments are perfectly warranted. And why would people not want to form greaser gangs? Butch and his friends grew up in Vault 101 where they were exposed to nothing but 50s-style culture, so it only makes sense that it would shape their interests and personalities accordingly.

 

I guess I really need to watch that Shamus Young video, but I still struggle to understand what are main issues with the writing are... regarding the base game, that is. Again, Operation Anchorage is just so awful and what drives me absolutely nuts is even a high-intelligence/science character has to complete the simulation as intended rather than being given the ability to break the simulation and mess with its characters, like in that Deep Space Nine episode "Our Man Bashir"; that alone would have completely redeemed the simulation segment in my opinion!

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rudolph

[Rudolph]

5 hours ago, BGrieber said:

”Why are others dismissive of 3”? Can’t say precisely since I’ve seen as many trolls easily dismiss NV as well, but some of the more legitimate and interesting concerns has been with how Bethesda could be interpreting the setting. Not an article but this time a video from the late and great Shamus Young that may provide some legitimacy to those concerns.

Okay, I have watched the video. I tend to agree with his takes about the stagnation of the franchise's lore and visual identity, but for the most part, I cannot help but feel like they apply mostly to Fallout 4, which seems to be the real culprit here. I will also still defend the return of the Brotherhood and the Super Mutants - as the Interplay-era games made it clear that both groups did spread across the United States in the aftermath of the first Fallout game - as well as the bottle caps as currency, which as I pointed out earlier is simply genius from a mechanical standpoint.

 

However, he is absolutely right about the presence of creatures like Radscorpions and Deathclaws in the Capital Wasteland: that has not occurred to me, but it is weird indeed that Bethesda chose to place so many of them in the environment, especially when Fallout 3 introduced its fair share of original monsters - including the Mirelurk, which is easily the scariest monster type I have encountered in the game so far. You should have seen me getting all startled when I realize that these fuckers could follow me one area of the Nuka-Cola Plant to another! XD

[BGreener]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

Wait, Fallout 3 is about water? I just got to Rivet City and I am only now sort of learning about what James had been up to and it is not about finding a water chip for a vault or a G.E.C.K. for a dying village, but rather making the Capital Wasteland as a whole more hospitable. If you ask me, that feels like the logical continuation of the first two Fallout games. Fallout 3 also does not take place in a desert, but the remnants of Washington D.C. and its surroundings; I know Fallout 76 retconned it all by making the region look relatively unaffected by the nuclear war, but here in Fallout 3, the devastated environments are perfectly warranted. And why would people not want to form greaser gangs? Butch and his friends grew up in Vault 101 where they were exposed to nothing but 50s-style culture, so it only makes sense that it would shape their interests and personalities accordingly.

 

I guess I really need to watch that Shamus Young video, but I still struggle to understand what are main issues with the writing are... regarding the base game, that is. Again, Operation Anchorage is just so awful and what drives me absolutely nuts is even a high-intelligence/science character has to complete the simulation as intended rather than being given the ability to break the simulation and mess with its characters, like in that Deep Space Nine episode "Our Man Bashir"; that alone would have completely redeemed the simulation segment in my opinion!

How much of Shamus’ writings/videos did you watch prior to a few hours ago?

[Rudolph]

Only this one. Like I said, I did not know about him until you linked to his video. It is sad to hear that he recently passed away. :(

 

It feels so awkward to watch videos from people who are no longer with us. I know the same could be said about movies, but YouTube videos are usually made in a way that gives me the impression that their narrator is talking to me directly and with the presence the comments section, I cannot help but half-expect Shamus Young to reply to me from beyond the grave should I leave a comment. Social media can be so weird...

[Rudolph]

I did it! I have finished Fallout 3 - or at the very least, the base game. All that remains now is Broken Steel, Point Lookout and The Pitt.

 

Overall, it was an enjoyable experience, despite the remaining bugs and the game limitations. It does help that I was playing the Game of the Year edition, so I was allowed to send Fawkes inside the Purifier (and survive) instead of pointlessly sacrificing myself. Still, I am relieved to see that my worst fears were unwarranted. I actually think Fallout 3 handles the climactic confrontation with the Enclave much better than Fallout 2: President John Henry Eden is a fine character - voiced by none other than Malcolm McDowell, I have just found out! - and even Colonel Autumn, while not exactly memorable, felt like a considerable improvement over fucking Frank Horrigan despite being nowhere near as visually intimidating. Honestly, if I cannot talk my way out of a fight with the "final boss", what is even the point of investing in Speech and Intelligence? :S

 

I am honestly tempted to rank Fallout 3 well above the first two games, however controversial it may sound: with the exception of those baffling Operation Anchorage and Mothership Zeta DLCs, the game was much more fun to play while still doing a good job staying true to the series' ethos.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Rudolph

[Rudolph]

Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics are being given away on Epic Games Store today!

 

Hopefully, Fallout: New Vegas is next.

[HeatedChocolate]

Tactics might be one of the 3 fallout games I don't have, but I'm still not using the Epic Games store.

[mrthejoshmon]

14 minutes ago, HeatedChocolate said:

Tactics might be one of the 3 fallout games I don't have, but I'm still not using the Epic Games store.

Tactics is regarded as the black sheep of the series due to the departure from the standard Fallout formulae/gameplay and is very divisive, a quick comparison is to think of it almost as TNT is to Doom.

 

With that said it should shock no one that Tactics is my favourite isometric Fallout game.

[Rudolph]

I was not planning on to for the longest time until Epic Games Store started giving games away on a regular basis, so at this point, I am like, what the hell. So far, the only content I have actually purchased on that platform was the Borderlands 3 Ultimate Edition, but that is only because I already got the base game for free. Ideally, I would like to get Fallout: New Vegas on GOG.com, but I am still waiting to see if it ends up being given away like Fallout 3: Game of the Year Edition was when it made its way on Epic Games Store. It is not like I am in much of a hurry anyway, as I still have Fallout Shelter to keep me busy.

 

As for Tactics, I just hope it is not too buggy or poorly designed, as I read that it was rushed out of the door by a third-party studio. Then again, much like Fallout 3, I am getting it for free, so I cannot really complain if I end up not liking it...

 

3 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

With that said it should shock no one that Tactics is my favourite isometric Fallout game.

Is that so? Why is that?

[mrthejoshmon]

7 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Is that so? Why is that?

I prefer the super quick reaction based real time combat as well as the satisfaction of creating a good squad composition, planning out all engagements before hand (sending in a stealth unit to scout enemy positions and equipment) and setting up positioning.

 

When I would send the orders for everyone to move to position and engage and watching my plan play out in real time as the sniper provides cover fire, the CQC combatant kites the enemy melee units into the shotgunner round the corner, much more satisfying in real time.

 

Even when plans fail, scrambling to recover the situation is exhilarating.

 

Not only this but the setting, story and aesthetic really appeal to me, I love the grimy and gritty look of the Brotherhood and being "the good guys (but only because everyone is worse)" factions have always appealed to me.

 

[Rudolph]

You are making a good case for the game! I guess part of my skepticism comes from watching game footage that involves driving an armored car, which looked... kind of awkward, with the vehicle itself falling in disrepair every thirty seconds and enemies just throwing themselves at it mindlessly. Hopefully, those sequences are hardly representative of the global experience.

 

Also, a while back, I tried giving the game Silent Storm and I ended up really not liking it, hence my wariness of this type of games.

[mrthejoshmon]

10 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

You are making a good case for the game! I guess part of my skepticism comes from watching game footage that involves driving an armored car, which looked... kind of awkward, with the vehicle itself falling in disrepair every thirty seconds and enemies just throwing themselves at it mindlessly. Hopefully, those sequences are hardly representative of the global experience.

 

Also, a while back, I tried giving the game Silent Storm and I ended up really not liking it, hence my wariness of this type of games.

The driving isn't as bad as it looks until you get the heavier vehicles, I never actually had to repair the vehicle once (might be because I purposefully specialised one of the characters to have the driving skill). The heavier vehicles control like ass and running over my point man who was out spotting mines for the team stopped being funny the 12th time it happened. The plus side of the vehicles is that it allows you to shoot from relative safety, for instance getting a Deathclaw encounter was mitigated by the fact I am in an APC.

 

The game does have issues don't get me wrong, for instance there is a section where most conventional ammo effectively becomes worthless and if you haven't prepared (which isn't an issue if you've actually been spending the money you get on AP or energy rounds) you are going to hit a wall (it is very late in the game however but the jump is still considerable). Always have at least 1 person proficient in energy weapons and it wouldn't hurt for a heavy gunner or 2. Another thing to note is (that whilst I didn't utilise it out of principle) unarmed is an incredibly meta and broken skill that will carry you through almost the entire game if you really wished to.

[Rudolph]

1 minute ago, mrthejoshmon said:

Another thing to note is (that whilst I didn't utilise it out of principle) unarmed is an incredibly meta and broken skill that will carry you through almost the entire game if you really wished to.

What do you mean by "meta and broken"?

[mrthejoshmon]

4 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

What do you mean by "meta and broken"?

Yes, sorry, those are usually PVP/MMO colloquialisms.

 

What it means is that it is so effective that it is almost to your detriment to not utilise them, "unbalanced" or "overpowered" are usually more appropriate terms.

 

Unarmed allows you to deal large amounts of direct damage which when specialised into can also mitigate armour almost entirely, you can literally punch your way through almost the entirety of Tactics to the point of absurdity, my fondest memory was brutal trench warfare with super mutants, having to provide cover for retreating wounded and having to toss grenades to clear bunkers, a lengthy affair that was very rewarding.

 

The optimal strategy was to just send in a melee specialist and punch them to death, that takes mere minutes.

[Rudolph]

I have been meaning to roleplay as Kenshiro in Fallout again, so why not? :P

 

 

[Rudolph]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:46 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

With that said it should shock no one that Tactics is my favourite isometric Fallout game.

Oh, I meant to ask you and others: how do you feel about the Wasteland series, namely the sequels?

 

Can they be considered as spiritual successors of Fallout: Tactics? If so, would you recommend them over the latter?

[mrthejoshmon]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Oh, I meant to ask you and others: how do you feel about the Wasteland series, namely the sequels?

 

Can they be considered as spiritual successors of Fallout: Tactics? If so, would you recommend them over the latter?

Wasteland isn't one I'm too familiar with.

 

I haven't had much experience with 1 and 2, to be frank, kicked my ass. Wasteland is much more in-depth and hardcore compared to Fallout Tactics and is turn based (at least from what I played of it). If you're a massive fan of turn based in depth RPG games then to my understanding Wasteland is for you, I've always preferred real-time like Arcanum or Baldur's Gate.

[Rudolph]

Well, one looks really dated, even with its remaster.

 

Are you saying that even Wasteland 2 is as inaccessible and unforgiving as its predecessor?

[mrthejoshmon]

6 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Are you saying that even Wasteland 2 is as inaccessible and unforgiving as its predecessor?

No idea, never played the first one.

 

I wouldn't say it's inaccessible as much as it is going to require full attention and a modicum of dedication, like most RPGs like it I would recommend that you only play it if you intend to mainline it for a while.

[Rudolph]

@mrthejoshmon What does "mainline" mean here?

 

I have not played Wasteland 1 either, but I have watched a Let's Play of it and the combat is entirely done in text-based format, which I assume must make it quite difficult to follow - or at the very least much harder than games with visuals.

[taufan99]

Months ago I brought up a Fallout 2 3D remake by a Polish fan on the Bakersfield thread. A playable, but highly WIP demo is now available here (also playable on browser). NOTE: You can change the language by going to the "Opcje" menu and checking the lower right screen inside the menu. Currently, English, Polish (the default), and Russian are available.

 

Some correction; on that Bakersfield thread I postulated that Jonasz Osmenda, the creator of the Fallout 2 3D Remake, is also using GZDoom for it. Turns out I couldn't be more wrong (it uses an unspecified HTML/JS-based engine).

 

As it is still an early build, much jankiness (and untranslated parts) is to be expected, although I reckon it has a lot of potential in the future.

[Gez]

Not directly about Fallout, but about a canceled game that would have followed Fallout: New Vegas as the next Obsidian/Bethesda joint product.

 

[Rudolph]

Well, that is a shame.

 

But is the upcoming Starfield also not intended to be "Skyrim in Space"? If so, I wonder if it is going to use some of Backspace's ideas.

 

Also, that is the first time I hear about ThreadSpace: Hyperbol. Is it worth checking out?

 

EDIT: Aw, crap. It is apparently a multiplayer game. Nevermind, then... :S

Edited January 6, 2023 by Rudolph