Does Duke Nukem 3d 20th anniversary world tour's 3d mode make the game become true 3D?

[Redneckerz]

51 minutes ago, Technicolor said:

 

What happened?

 

What happened is that this discussion about definition has been played out to death. So for you to come in with a statement like this, it generates the image macro as displayed by Kinsie.

 

Spoiler

It doesn't happen often that i can re-use a gif this way but i guess this is equally valid

 

[Graf Zahl]

So we got the same discussion all over again - again missing the forest for the trees.

 

Is Doom 3D? Yes, surely. Even with the patially crippled z coordinate that is still true.

But is it 'true' 3D? My answer would actually be 'no', because one thing is not 3D, and that's the map format. Same for Build, actually. Yes, sure you got heights, but what you do not have is free z-coordinates for each vertex. Vertices are actually only 2D with the z coordinate coming from an external shared data source, i.e. the sector.

 

'True 3D' means to me that all aspects of the game have fully realized xyz coordinates and that's clearly not the case for these old games.

 

[VanaheimRanger]

I think all that's really being asked here is "If I look up or down, will there be shearing?" and the answer is...I don't own the game, so I can't tell you.

[Graf Zahl]

If that's all, the answer would be "no."

The World Tour renderer is based on Polymer which uses proper 3D projection.

 

Polymost is something of a bastard - although it doesn't have shearing it also does not perform proper 3D projection but something in-between.

 

[TasAcri]

I wonder if it was DOOM that started all this "true 3D" or "2.5D" discussions. And if it was then how come? I assume it was such a technical wonder (and being so popular at the same time helps) that people had to explain the magic behind it?

[Gez]

Doom is true 3D, but it is no True 3D™.

 

Does the distinction matter? No, unless you're doing something incredibly nerdy.

[Biz!]

Does True 3D™ really make the game better? 

 

Duke Nukem 3D is real 3D anyway, at least a loose definition of 3D.

You have prospective, you can move in a 3D world, you have verticality, it's 3D.

[D4NUK1]

What's more 3D, Unreal or Half Life? We can measure the levels of 3D of the games?

[Koko Ricky]

The notion of "true" 3D is rather stupid because firstly, in physics, a point particle is a zero dimensional coordinate; a quantum string is a one dimensional filament; a carbon nanotube is a 2D lattice. Using OP's asinine notion of "true" dimensionality, reality is somehow only "truly" 3D once a bunch of particles and waves clump together at the macro scale, and "falsely" 3D at the micro scale. Nonsense. 

 

Secondly, all 3D polygonal games utilize 2D triangles (or on rare occasions, quads) faceted together in 3D space. That pesky truthful notion would then dictate that those tris/quads aren't really 3D. If your virtual environment has three coordinates defining its dimensionality, it is 3D regardless of any specific limitations imposed on its geometry. 

[Gez]

6 minutes ago, openxt said:

Does True 3D™ really make the game better? 

No, game goodness is orthogonal to the number of dimensions. So you could say it's a fourth dimension.

 

As I said, the distinction only matters in very narrow and very nerdy niches, like a speedrun technique were you'd clip through the ceiling to get to the above room (which is not going to be possible in Doom as the "above floor" will be faked by a silent teleporter so it'll actually have different X and Y coordinates) or something like that.

[Technicolor]

1 hour ago, Gez said:

Doom is true 3D, but it is no True 3D™.

 

Does the distinction matter? No, unless you're doing something incredibly nerdy.

 

Enemies even have infinite heights in Doom. Just because there is a pinky below, I can't move from above.

[Noiser]

Doom is a 3D game.

[Graf Zahl]

49 minutes ago, Gez said:

As I said, the distinction only matters in very narrow and very nerdy niches,

 

So developing a port for a game is a nerdy niche? :(

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Doomkid must be pulling his hair out at this thread

[Gez]

16 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

So developing a port for a game is a nerdy niche? :(

Well... yes. And so is arguing on a forum. That's okay, we're all nerds here, we don't have to pretend we aren't! :D

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, Technicolor said:

 

Enemies even have infinite heights in Doom. Just because there is a pinky below, I can't move from above.

yeah, but projectiles can go over/under you and you can't fit into spaces too short for you. it's still 3d (it has a z-axis, meaning that it is, by definition, 3d), they just didn't code vertical-based collision into doom in order to save on cpu resources

 

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

So developing a port for a game is a nerdy niche? :(

 

lol ur a fukn nerdddddddd

[Technicolor]

38 minutes ago, roadworx said:

yeah, but projectiles can go over/under you and you can't fit into spaces too short for you. it's still 3d (it has a z-axis, meaning that it is, by definition, 3d), they just didn't code vertical-based collision into doom in order to save on cpu resources

 

lol ur a fukn nerdddddddd

 

If Doom is 3D, why is Quake mentioned as actual 3D game? 

[dasho]

This is basically what Graf alluded to, but here's a direct quote from Carmack:

"Doom 1/2 had 3D coordinates for objects and wall edges, but it was very limited and not general purpose 3D."

 

https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/793807004670111745

 

So, in conclusion: Who knows

[GarrettChan]

4 hours ago, Technicolor said:

Enemies even have infinite heights in Doom. Just because there is a pinky below, I can't move from above.

 

It's coded this way, not like they don't know anything about 3D (TM).

 

22 minutes ago, Technicolor said:

If Doom is 3D, why is Quake mentioned as actual 3D game? 

 

So, you would consider any food without "Gluten-Free" icon on it has gluten, right?

 

Also, Doomkid's hair, please grow back in a faster rate :)

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

"IS DOOM 3D? PART 11.4: The Sequel Ch. 17 Thread 412 - Is Duke Nukem 3D 3D When Compared To Quake When Quake Is 3D?"

[Koko Ricky]

31 minutes ago, Technicolor said:

 

If Doom is 3D, why is Quake mentioned as actual 3D game? 

 

Because people are stupid and compartmentalization provides the illusion of meaning. It's a bumper sticker way of saying, "Doom has limited 3D geometry, Quake has full-freedom 3D geometry."

[Caffeine Freak]

10 hours ago, Technicolor said:

 

What happened?

 

You activated this threads 3d mode, hence Kinsie posting a 3d picture of frustration.

[D4NUK1]

8 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

You activated this threads 3d mode, hence Kinsie posting a 3d picture of frustration.

 

But doctor, the image is flat on the screen.

[Herr Dethnout]

11 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Is Doom 3D? Yes, surely. Even with the patially crippled z coordinate that is still true.

But is it 'true' 3D? My answer would actually be 'no', because one thing is not 3D, and that's the map format. Same for Build, actually. Yes, sure you got heights, but what you do not have is free z-coordinates for each vertex. Vertices are actually only 2D with the z coordinate coming from an external shared data source, i.e. the sector.

The best and only accepted "Yes but not" type of answer.

[xScavengerWolfx]

Sprites and texture don't count as 3-D. Polygons and shamblers are 3-D. What's next? You going to tell me Doom was going to be an Aliens game before they decided to say no because they wanted freedom of creativity for there next game to blow wolf 3-D out of the waters?

 

No sir, i don't believe you.

[Technicolor]

4 hours ago, D4NUK1 said:

 

But doctor, the image is flat on the screen.

 

With 3D movies, the image isn't flat on the screen.

 

 

[TasAcri]

1 hour ago, Technicolor said:

 

With 3D movies, the image isn't flat on the screen.

 

 

 

You can do that with anything. Even 2D games.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

1 hour ago, Technicolor said:

With 3D movies, the image isn't flat on the screen.

No, it's on flat glasses

[TasAcri]

7 hours ago, Technicolor said:

 

If Doom is 3D, why is Quake mentioned as actual 3D game? 

 

Because it was using polygons for everything, including enemies and items, and didn't have any restrictions for saving on the CPU.

 

DOOM is 3D but it has some restrictions in order to be faster for the weaker CPUs at the time.