Silent protagonist: yes or no?

[jupiter_ex]

(I swear I looked for this same poll in the forums and found nothing (which is weird))

I've been playing Prey 2017 because I'm a fan of everything immersive sim and found that it has a silent protagonist (unlike Prey 2006, for instance). Being this the forum it is, and how the silent protagonist thing is been linked to a specific game designer from our beloved game, I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

 

Do you like a fully silent protagonist for your game? You think it was ok in the 90s but not for today? Or would you perfectly accept a S.P. in a modern game? Does it really help you feel it's you? Want to explain why is it that you like it or dislike it?

 

I'm particularly not in favor. Ever since Duke3D released in 96 the whole "immersion would be broken if the character talks" went out of the window for me.

 

Well, feel free to let your thoughts for yes, no, why, etc

[Rudolph]

I guess it depends.

 

In games with little to no plot, it is fine. Not every protagonist has to be Duke Nukem or Caleb.

 

In games with many talkative characters, however, it has become a bit of a problem. Valve seems to have realized how awkward this is and that is probably why they elected to make Alyx Vance the protagonist of the latest Half-Life game rather than Gordon Freeman.

 

As for the latter, the most elegant solution would be to make him canonically mute and communicate through sign language from now. I reckon that would be a cool way to feature a historically underrepresented group in video games.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Rudolph

[heliumlamb]

a compelling narrative, is a compelling narrative, regardless of presentation

 

in narrative-focused interactive media, i find a sparse approach works best. that's usually done, and done best, with a silent protagonist. leaving it up to the player to discover and infer the mysteries of a given world often leads to a sense of exploration that goes a little bit beyond mere traveling through the game world. system shock, king's field, the marathon trilogy, armored core, cruelty squad and unreal all excel at a sort of "no words, just player actions" in varying degrees of story density and linearity, despite having stories that could be *mostly* ignored if the player really desired. (i think armored core 1-3 might have had a few yes/no prompts iirc, but nothing beyond that)

i'm considering "no voice acting, but dialogue options" not silent. fallout 2, deus ex and ultima underworld immediately come to mind as great examples of "player has a say beyond mere action".

a good chunk of triple-ehh sludge from the 7th console gen onward can get pretty egregious with what could best be described as "spoonfeeding of emotion", in a way that stuff like duke 3d or blood will never achieve. player characters constantly going off about how they feel to force player relation just feels "inorganic", for lack of a better term, especially in linear action games. likewise, silent protags have brought us classic moments like "press button to play respects", and "go ahead now player, push that cart/enter that portal, to progress the game Please."
 

[Rudolph]

55 minutes ago, heliumlamb said:

the marathon trilogy

Incidentally, the fan sequel Marathon Eternal does feature some diary entries from the protagonist and it works rather well.

 

55 minutes ago, heliumlamb said:

likewise, silent protags have brought us classic moments like "press button to play respects"

Is the protagonist in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare really a silent protagonist? I have not played that game, but I read he is voiced by Troy Baker and I am pretty sure I remember him speaking from a Let's Play I have seen years ago.

[Dweller Dark]

Strictly in terms of FPS games, I'd rather have a silent protagonist, unless they have interesting things to say like Duke Nukem. Immersive sims and RPGs are either/or, as each has a benefit to a silent or voiced protagonist.

[heliumlamb]

16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Is the protagonist in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare really a silent protagonist? I have not played that game, but I read he is voiced by Troy Baker and I am pretty sure I remember him speaking from a Let's Play I have seen years ago.

to be honest, i don't know and won't play it in my life to find out. i am definitely assuming and may be making an ass of myself here, but going off of my memory of the handful of call of duty games i did play back then, they had either: a silent protagonist or words from the protag that were so unmemorable that my brain registers them as silent. last one i played was black ops 1, they all collect and mix together, like a sludge.
 

[Murdoch]

1 hour ago, heliumlamb said:

a compelling narrative, is a compelling narrative, regardless of presentation

 

This. A well done voiced protagonist works. A bad one doesn't. 

[Jello]

It really depends on the game. There are some games where a vocal protagonist is not only welcome, but enhances the game. There are other games, where a silent protagonist is fine.

 

I mean, I'm playing through High on Life right now, and all the talking is done through your Gatlian guns. Which is fine, let Roiland make funny voices, it's amusing, but not having your character say anything is kind of off-putting, especially when NPCs are directly addressing you, and you let "Kenny" do the talking. Maybe that's just a funny little joke, you let your gun do the talking. But when you're talking to your sister and it's all done by text wheel, and other conversations you have no part in, I don't know, it just feels off.

 

And one game that I played this year where a silent protagonist seemed to be an extremely bad choice was Metro: Exodus. Artyom has a name, he's well known as the savior of the Metro, he's been through combat and he saved countless people. He has a wife, he has a father-in-law who is constantly talking shit about him, he has comrades who constantly talk to him and ask him questions. The dialogue is very well written, and I love listening to it, but it loses impact when you realize you can never actually have a conversation with the people. Everyone is asking him questions, asking for advice on what they should do next, and he never says a damn word. He's asked if they should do this or that, and you can never answer them, you just go off and do whatever you please. But your silence is golden to them, they trust that what you decide is probably best. It is just amazingly hollow.

 

If you want to build a game around a narrative, then you need to have a character that communicates with the world around them. Or make it quite clear that they're a pawn in the overall world, and what they think or do doesn't mean anything. Half-Life 1 gets a pass in this, because most of the time the scientists that you help are asking rhetorical questions, and the gameplay is actually really enjoyable. And it's believable that complete strangers have heard from other people that there's a scientist who's actually doing something, and they know you're Freeman, and they just want to tell you information.

 

In Metro: Exodus, it's hard to believe that the savior of the Metro can't even be arsed to talk to his wife.

[Mr. Freeze]

Nope. Imagine how lame Wolfenstein: The New Order would be with a silent Blazkowicz. 

[Majin]

i think it depends, some games kinda good with it some some bad without it 

[mrthejoshmon]

I prefer voiced protagonists as long as they aren't literally any incarnation of Lo Wang.

[hybridial]

I have no preference because both can work and depend pretty much on the intent of the game. What I think is more interesting to talk about is their uses in story driven games with choices. I think games like Fallout, like Baldur's Gate, Shadowrun, Suikoden have silent protagonists because the only time they ever say anything is by a dialogue prompt. This is a very different approach to making a protagonist who converses in normal dialogue all the time. And I think it's very interesting and I tend to enjoy games that do it. 

[Rudolph]

45 minutes ago, hybridial said:

I think games like Fallout, like Baldur's Gate, Shadowrun, Suikoden have silent protagonists because the only time they ever say anything is by a dialogue prompt.

I thought about this and I do not think that counts as a silent protagonist, especially in Fallout's case, where until Fallout 3, very few NPCs had voice-acting. Also, at least in Fallout 2, I distinctively remember the protagonist talking on their own.

[hybridial]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I thought about this and I do not think that counts as a silent protagonist, especially in Fallout's case, where until Fallout 3, very few NPCs had voice-acting. Also, at least in Fallout 2, I distinctively remember the protagonist talking on their own.

 

What I mean has nothing to do with voice acting. I didn't take this as having anything to do with actual voice acting but rather how much the character is involved in dialogue in the game.

 

Silent Protagonist might not be the term for what I'm getting at though, but that said I'm not really sure what the term means when I actually think about it. Are they silent if they only ever speak in text? I guess if you put a hard line on it that it's a character that never speaks ever then what I'm talking about is something different but probably the most interesting approach for me. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by hybridial

[Chezza]

I would opt in for a silent protagonist for two reasons:
1. I'm use to it from FPS and RPGs over the years of gaming. It also allows my imagination to create the character, and if necessary their motivations

2. Games with voiced protagonists rarely are characters I enjoy

 

Granted, I enjoy Duke Nukem, Lo Wang and Caleb (albeit 2D characters). Unlike some modern triple A titles that go with overly grisly guy or protagonists from Fallout 4 and Dying Light 2 which is more of a generic passive aggressive, low energy yet agreeable character. Probably to cater for the teenage audience and dialogue options?

[Rudolph]

33 minutes ago, Chezza said:

teenage audience

Ah, come on. Most of the games I played as a teenager had mute protagonists! In fact, I think the first game I have ever played with a voiced protagonist must have been Descent II, and even then, the Material Defender only speaks in the opening and ending cutscenes. 

[HadleyFlame]

Feels more badass when it doesnt speak but acts... I love the slayer because of that.

[Amiga Angel]

I enjoy the vocal protagonists in that unreal tournament doom mod that I cant remember the name of atm.

[CittyKat112]

NO for action focused gaemz such as First and Third Person Shooters, beat 'em up games, etc and mega yes for RPGs.

[vyruss]

It doesn't matter what the genre is or the story context.  Silent protagonist is much better simply because now that games are trending toward just being a bunch of long cutscenes that reward you with shallow gameplay for five minutes then another 30 minute cutscene, the less I have to hear characters from voice actors I don't give a shit about the name of the better.

 

I will grant exception if the voice work is so bad its good.

 

To bounce off of a subject that came up from previous posts, Fallout is a prime example of a silent protagonist being forced to have some kind of a voice.  It is not outright spoken, but I think the goal is that being it is a role-playing game it is assumed the person driving the character would somehow be able to supply the voice.  Since there is no voice, I consider it still a silent protagonist.

[Rudolph]

2 hours ago, vyruss said:

It doesn't matter what the genre is or the story context.  Silent protagonist is much better simply because now that games are trending toward just being a bunch of long cutscenes that reward you with shallow gameplay for five minutes then another 30 minute cutscene, the less I have to hear characters from voice actors I don't give a shit about the name of the better.

Unfortunately, games like Half-Life, Portal and even Doom 2016 have shown that you do not need a voiced protagonist in order to have to sit through real-time cutscenes where you have to wait for NPCs to stop talking in order to resume playing.

 

Honestly, I like Alyx much better now that Valve made her the playable protagonist.

[hybridial]

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Unfortunately, games like Half-Life, Portal and even Doom 2016 have shown that you do not need a voiced protagonist in order to have to sit through real-time cutscenes where you have to wait for NPCs to stop talking in order to resume playing.

 

I am oh so glad when I see this stated, because I hated that bullshit. Doom 2016 was dragged down so much it it's not even funny. Portal is fine... it's well established I think Half Life is the most boring thing ever made (well, Halo competes, hence staying out of that other thread) but that's one of the things that I think doesn't belong in any action game under basically any circumstances. Had Half Life been a different type of game, something more adventure based I think it's approach would make sense to me, but as an FPS, no, just no on any level. 

 

You're not doing any service to the gameplay itself in terms of pacing and whatnot, and it's just not a particularly good way to tell any kind of story. 

[Rudolph]

I disagree about Half-Life. Aside from the very beginning, the game has a consistently solid pace: you are rarely forced to listen to NPCs and the few "cutscenes" there are generally do not overstay their welcome. The two expansion packs were even better in that regard, which in retrospective is rather surprising, given how infamously wordy the Borderlands games are. Half-Life 2 is where Valve really went overboard with the unnecessarily verbose NPCs that either bring the game to a screeching halt or keep getting in the way.

 

Another reason why I have never bothered with Portal 2 is that in addition to having little interest in revisiting that universe, Portal 1 working well as a self-contained story, I was definitely not going to let Valve inflict fucking Wheatley upon me; watching the first few minutes of the game was enough to convince me that I would absolutely hate it.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Rudolph

[Chezza]

12 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Ah, come on. Most of the games I played as a teenager had mute protagonists! In fact, I think the first game I have ever played with a voiced protagonist must have been Descent II, and even then, the Material Defender only speaks in the opening and ending cutscenes. 

I'm referring to current teenage audience though. Games are different from then and now.

 

Based on the games I've played, it appears modern voiced protagonists have little personality. The exception are games that pay tribute to old classics like Shadow Warrior and even the silent Doom Slayer still are distinct though.

[Rudolph]

2 minutes ago, Chezza said:

silent Doom Slayer

Well, the new Doom games have the opposite problem in the sense that they just will not shut up about the Doomslayer.

 

It does not feel quite like in Classic Doom and even Doom 3, where the protagonist is just some guy who is able to beat the odds somehow.

[Artman2004]

I have mixed opinions. I'm fine with protagonists who talk every now and then, but when they repeatedly say the same five one-liners, they can get really annoying.

[Rykzeon]

Doomguy isn't silent protagonist. You can hear Doomguy's voice oofing. Actual silent protagonist may be Gordon Freeman because I far I know (I never finished Half-Life), Gordon Freeman just watching himself getting shot and talking to NPCs telepathically. He doesn't even giving feedback like Doomguy's oofing when you press spacebar on nothing.

[Rudolph]

I guess by "silent protagonists", people generally mean characters who do not speak at all, whether it is through text or voice-acting.

 

In that sense, I consider Doomguy a mostly silent protagonist, as he does not say a word until Doom Eternal.

[LadyMistDragon]

Silent protagonists are stupid, and it doesn't matter how annoying you find one to be voiced.

 

Certainly, there is an advantage to having the room to project your own personality onto a character, but in an FPS game, it never made much sense to me beyond perhaps a different outlook on the horror elements these games have. And in JRPGs, it's even worst. They might as well have cardboard personalities for all the effort that goes into making Adol Christen or some of the Persona protags having personality, especially when they end up doing things you wouldn't.

 

At the same time, being forced in one way or another to take on an different perspective can be a little bit more interesting than some blank slate you don't bear and never would wanna bear, any physical resemblance either.

[Remilia Scarlet]

Oh dear god yes to silent protagonists, at least when it comes to internal monologue.  It's annoying as heck to hear a character's internal monologue as I'm trying to play a game.