Book Lord Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) MAP 24 – The Mucus Flow by B.P.R.D @Foofoo DSDA-Doom v0.24.3, UV, Continuous, blind run w/saves B.P.R.D. and his masterpiece The Mucus Flow have passed into legend and have been discussed and dissected like an alien specimen. I am not familiar enough with community content to see the full extent of their influence, but I see it as one the first maps that merged large-scale exploration with gameplay based on strict resource management. This intrepid mix transformed a lengthy, atmospheric journey like the one seen in Misri-Halek into a tense and nerve-wracking survival adventure. Playing it at last was an unforgettable experience, shedding light on past and present trends in mapping. I can only imagine the bemusement of the first players daring to set foot in this complex, swallowed by green mucus, invaded by hellspawn, guarded by endless Chaingunners on turrets, and deprived of all the resources normally available to Doomguys. As for myself, I minimised downtime and frustration by coming prepared to the appointment. I knew that almost my whole healing and ammo arsenal was in the starting shelter, that all weapons were locked up except the SSG, and that the three keycards were located beyond enemy lines. I was also aware that if I wanted to resupply or use a key to acquire a weapon, I must come back to start, going back and forth through the canyon with undying guard towers. Spoiler Despite playing continuously from MAP23, I accepted the resource deprivation and the disheartening routine for restocking as an essential part of the experience. I refrained from using carryover weapons, adopting shotguns and chainsaw as my best friends for a good while. They carried me inside the gloomy, abandoned warehouse, then through the tech-base main gate, its silver corridors padded with diamonds and Revenant guard posts, and to the outside again. The path to RK stretched for quite a bit in the wilderness, forcing me to tear apart Imps, Pain Elementals and Revenants with the chainsaw. During the second visit I retrieved the BK and I found the map’s iconic secret, leading to the giant nose and some power-ups that allowed me to stay for some more, clearing the northern hallway from Pinkies and Arachnotrons. Spoiler The Hell Knight and Demon ambush before the chamber with the mucus fountain was the nastiest of all encounters. I was killed because I did not expect merciless Chaingunners to pop up while I was comfortably handling the horde. What a mean trick on the unaware player! They riddled me with bullets before I could realise their position, so I reloaded and forced myself to stay away from the fountain. I continued northwards, dodging Mancubi in a hallway and making a stand in front of the second fountain, not knowing yet of the Revenants on the return path. I desperately needed health and those stimpacks out of the window prompted the search for a secret, and eventually I found another hidden room with a nondescript lever, the one that crushed all Chaingunner replacements and drastically reduced the remaining monster quota. Spoiler The backtracking was still tedious, but at least it was less taxing for health. Acquiring the YK from the teleport experimental lab was relatively simple, and I felt enough equipped to face the final stretch. Thankfully I checked the settings of my source port in advance, or my quest would have ended in front of the four doors and their Boom-incompatible switch. The valley was a majestic sight, even if it just replicated the same colour scheme and texture of the whole level. The scale was massive, the towers and their occupants were out of reach, and the path to the end of the mucus stream was like an obstacle course, with every monster being a thorn in the side. My determination wavered as I ran out of ammo again, persecuted by Revenants and Pain Elementals, and I suffered a series of stupid deaths. It was the end of the journey though, in front of the last switch that filled the valley with green slime. What a great, cinematic finale, and a chance to terminate the last Chaingunners too! Spoiler Surprisingly, this was not the map that took me the most time to finish: 55 minutes on first blind attempt with saves. Just as the wonderful soundtrack, composed by B.P.R.D. himself to fit the level like a glove, The Mucus Flow was captivating and aggravating at the same time, a big adventure that profoundly relied on foreknowledge to be enjoyed. Due to health and ammo starvation, Pain Elementals, Revenants, and Commandos were obnoxious whenever they appeared, while other creatures were limited to background roles. Being well informed in advance I quite enjoyed the ride, but I think a beast like this in the middle of a 32-map megaWAD is very hard to swallow. While The Mucus Flow is universally acclaimed as the map that defined Community Chest 2, my direct experience confirmed that it does not really belong to it. The show-stealer attitude, the conceptual gameplay, and the ambition to create a true epic adventure were palpable, assertive, and deliberate, and they clashed with all the rest. They were so ingrained in the mapper’s mindset that he even let glaring mistakes slip into the final product. B.P.R.D. was a talent and a visionary, his intuitions shaped the evolution of Doom mapping for decades, but he always released his creations as standalones, with the only exception of this map. In retrospect, I cannot understand why the audience reacted with an increased urge for one (or more) standout maps to appear in every community project or megaWAD, instead of recognising that such monumental works are better appreciated as separate PWADs. Edited January 25, 2023 by Book Lord 8 Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) Catch up time? Nah! There is a legendary map on the menu. Today is The Mucus Flow day! Catch-up for maps 19-23 will happen later. Map 24 The Mucus Flow by B.P.R.D UV, DSDA-Doom, pistol start, complevel 21 for mod, +Compatibility option to fix broken switch. Mods: Vesper, but it is mostly irrelevant for this map. New Review: (25_01_2023) Sometimes, replaying maps offer new insights. Glad I decided to replay this map a second time. Why? Because, frankly, this map is outright hostile to fun, unless you are in very right frame of mind or get extremely lucky with the map start. On my first playthrough, pinkies and PEs were coopreting. On a second - no such luck! Only two solutions 1) wait-and-wait-and-wait until the majority of the monsters reach a convenient chokepoint, were you saw/punch them all. (Concept of boredom was seemingly disregarded, when B.P.R.D. was placing monsters inside the techbase) 2) Retry, until you get lucky enough to start the map in somewhat fun way with noraml checkpoints. Frankly, far-away Pain eles + no chaingun at the start and no health around close to the battlefield is outright terrible design. Either wait, or lose. Such fun and interactive approach! Don't get me wrong, some traits of The Mucus Flow are brilliant: The map is really good in aesthetics department! It also provides some intersting challenges for speedrunners and other competitve players. Resourse deprevation gauntlets are a genre of its own, and The Mucus Flow fits this genre quite nicely. However, this all can easily get overshadowed by miserable "normal" gameplay loop. Conclusion: The Mucus Flow is like Icarus, who flew too close to the Sun, burned his wings and plummeted to his death. It could have been a great map. But it looks like a broken mess in its current state. It is possible to look past the broken, twisted shell and recongnise the brilliance which is still there. The fans of the map see that brilliance and appreciate it. However, broken shell is still there, and you will always stumble upon it when you try to play the map. Old Review: (24_01_2023) I can see why this map is considered legendary. But I absolutely don't get, why it gets praised So Very much. Are we talking about impressions? Then Dehydration from Eviternity is better in every way! Are we talking gameplay tricks? Respawning chaingunners appeared in Plutonia Experiment! Yes, those chaingunners were set up using archviles, not teleporters. But using snipers to block teleport destinations is not that crazy of an idea. In fact, it is used in CC2 Elixir for great effect! Connecting the two concepts was just a matter of time, even without The Mucus Flow existing... Even for year 2004 The Mucus Flow is not completely unique in its general design. Scythe's Fire and Ice, or Alien Vendetta's Misri Halek and Lake Poison share a lot of strengths with The Mucus Flow, while avoiding its most glaring weaknesses. Other things are in spoiler for convenience: Spoiler Maybe I was disappointed because I have seen spoilers about the map? I don't think so. Neither Going Down Mouth of Madness, nor Ancient Aliens Culture Shock were ruined by spoilers for me. Both those maps still wowed me on the first playthroughs. Ok, after a lengthy intro, lets discuss the map on its own terms. Audio and Visual presentation are very good. The MIDI is beautiful, memorable and fitting. And just a handful of custom textures go a very long way. Both the flooded sections (slime stains!) and the still operational techbase (white walls with energy diamonds!) look unique and memorable, even today. However, for all its strengths, The Mucus Flow felt about equal with Marbelous Three, Death Mountain and Sodding Death in its artistic impact on me. Very impressive, but no new ground was broken. The gameplay is... a thing, for a lack of a better word. Maxing the map felt like a daunting task, so I didn't bother. But simply finishing the map? Only the broken ZDoom-ism switch prevented me from completing the map without even SSG on my blind playthrough! Running around the monsters is realtively easy, so why should I bother fighting them? Only for maxing the map. However, tough to max maps are not rare. Scythe has more than one such map. How does The Mucus Flaw* compare to, say, Fire and Ice? (*That was likely a Freudian slip on my part...) Both Fire and Ice and The Mucus Flow present seemingly insurmountable odds, demand effective use of resources, and offer a lot of exploration through huge, grim, hostile spaces. Fire and Ice does provide some very empowering moments near the end of the run, if the player managed to clear the hardest fights while saving their resources effectively. But with The Mucus Flow, it is punching/sawing all the way down. The last quarter of the UV-MAX of CC2 map 24 feels more like an annoying busywork, rather than a glorious triumph. On top of that, The Mucus Flow does not mark its secrets! And also has hidden pain elemntals! Yeah, it is so fun to deal with Boom infinite lost souls on a map with heavy case of resource deprivation... In the end, I think there is one concrete fatal flaw with The Mucus Flow - it is an adventure map which punishes the player for playing it wrong. Go the wrong way? Ha-ha, you aggroed another bunch of monsters, they will get in your way from now on! Missed a Pain Elematal behind a slimefall? Ha-ha, now go punch a cloud of lost souls! Health is overrated anyways! Want to find powerful secrets? Ha-ha, prepare to press use on every single wall, because the secrets are unmarked! An adventure map is better, when it is fun to play blind. At least a little. But when playing The Mucus Flow blind, I felt stupid on every single step of my journey. I was constantly asking myself: "Why didn't I read a walktrough of this thing beforehand?" Not a good aspect for an adventure map with, frankly, boring combat... As for unique atmosphere with cool MIDI, and haunting ambience all around - yes, there is something like that in play here. However, map 32 Sodding Death from the very same Community Chest 2 has very similar mood, and with much fewer gameplay annoyances! Scythe Fire and Ice is also pretty haunting, thanks for Game-Over MIDI from ROTT, and the sheer scale of the challenges in front of you. Yet Fire and Ice has much, much smoother gameplay. A few of the later maps from Alien Vendetta also have very memorable atmosphere and good gameplay too. And nowadays we have maps like Nightmare (map 10 of Lost Civilization), God Machine (Sunlust), Revenge of Demon House (Wormwood), Dehydration (Eviternity), The Horror (Wormwood III) or Transduction (TNT:Revilution). They include a more fun gameplay compared to The Mucus Flow, and also have their own kind of haunting atmosphere! My final conclusion about The Mucus Flow - see new review above. (25_01_2022) My general idea is similar to that of @Monsieur E "The Mucus Flow is just a good map with flaws". In my opinion, Community Chest 2 has a few other maps of roughly the same quality. (24_01_2022) Some particular things of note: - This is the only CC2 map so far which I do not want to replay at all without some heavy routing. - The ambience and mood go a long way. However, there is a number of maps with similarly strong atmosphere out there. - Precise deployment of hand-picked textures should never be underestimated! - Pain Elementals are horrible for exapnsive adventure maps. - In fact, some areas of the map would have been better without any monsters at all. More "empty, lost, depressing" feeling, and no annoying foes to distract from that atmosphere! See Wormwood III for some examples of atmospheric monster-less sections. - I do find quite many things I like in The Mucus Flow. - Yet I do not think that the map is a "Must Play" nowadays. There are better maps which achieve vaguely similar objectives. - I do get why people like AV Misri Halek so much. I do not get, how CC2 The Mucus Flow achieved similar status. - One thing is absolutely certain: The Mucus Flow inspired quite a number of great maps. I am glad that those maps exist, and I am very grateful to B.P.R.D. for that! Edited January 25, 2023 by Azure_Horror : Tried replaying the map a few more times, had a worse experience on every single try. 7 Share this post Link to post
Jacek Bourne Posted January 24, 2023 3 hours ago, E.M. said: I'm fully aware that Ribbiks enjoys making ammo deprivation maps, but at least his maps are short. I wouldn’t be so sure. For example: Sf2012 map30 Stardate 20x6 maps 06 and 07 Swim with the whales map03 Sunlust map30 (although danne also worked on this one) Stardate 20x7 map09 Magnolia maps 01 and 03 Finely Crafted Fetish Film map07 3 Share this post Link to post
Crusader No Regret Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) In an ideal world, there would have been mention of needing to load an additional fix .wad to be able to complete map 24 and reach the kill switch for the repopulating turrets in Boom ports. But I didn't notice any prominent download link for the fix on either the Doomwiki or the DSDA page so I dummo where to grab it. Maybe in one of the DSDA demos which still feels like a hassle. Wished I said something about a map 24 fix 2-3 days ago now. Map 18: 93% kills, 11/15 secrets Played on HMP with Touhou Doom weapons and enemies 11/15 secrets and none of them had a rocket launcher (insert grumbling noises). Ticked me off a bit with all that rocket ammo and nothing to use it with. Didn't find the path to the visible BFG either. My ammo situation still turned out OK as the ammo balance tends to be more favorable with that mod combo, in fact reaching full capacity on most types. I had completely forgotten about this map. Against my better judgment, played through it. With the Touhou mods as I didn't feel like going up against hitscan. Mostly OK overall, maybe a bit below. Would be a 4/10 if I felt inclined to give a numerical rating. Far more playable than CChest map 25. One would likely have a better experience on this map on continuous with saves. There are a number of irritating factors if playing saveless from scratch, compounded if one dies and ends up repeating things. First thing I recall being an irritation is actually the gunshot switch secret. Maybe not as tight as the infamous one from Eviternity 12 but I still ran in circles trying to find the next one in the sequence of timed switches and stumbled on the order more by blind luck. Not something that would be fun to redo if one dies to a surprise gotcha and ended up restarting the map. Nearly all the weapons are in secrets so it's easy to find oneself underarmed if you're not very successful at finding them. Oh yeah, gotcha encounters. This map is mostly incidental combat which makes a surprise revenant or archvile with no cover feel particularly mean-spirited. Have an unsuitable weapon out? Ho hum, run is done, hope your last save isn't too far back. Otherwise, one is more likely to be worn out through attrition; health and armor isn't quite stingy but it's not abundant either. There are also several instances where it's easiest to door camp behind a fast or locked door to deal with a larger group of waiting monsters. Maybe fun for me but not something to everyone's tastes. Once the three keys have been acquired, hope you remember where a 3-key door is. (and even if you do, there's a lot of empty ground to cover) Would have made for a suitable end point but no, another switch hunt. I've mixed feelings about this. In some contexts (such as breaking into a tightly locked installation) such a choice could work to feed atmosphere. But on this map devoid of narrative, it does feel like padding. I'll admit I got sloppy around this point and lost a couple of lives dealing with the ambushes at the last set of switches. And that last exit fakeout, I just ran past it into the visible teleport. Found the exit soon after and decided I had enough of the map, not bothering to hunt down the remaining monsters. My Touhou mod settings made things easier overall but does come with it's own unique drawbacks. It's a long while before finding anything more than a shotgun and the Icicle Bow graphic is large enough to obstruct visibility. I actually ran low on ammo in the early going before obtaining more weapons and the first key. And while surprise archviles are more fair since they no longer have a guaranteed damage if target is within sight attack, the cyber in the marble area was harder. In vanilla settings, once the encounter is down to you and the cyber, you can cheese it by keeping the megasphere podium between it and you. The podium blocks its rockets but you can still shoot it. Dammaku cyber does have an attack that will get around that so cheese tactics are no longer a free pass. Lastly, the automap is revealed when using the mod combo (likely unintended effect from reusing Touhou Doom code). While that works within the context of Touhou Doom itself and it's simplistic mapping, it does take away some discovery factor, also making it easier to track down secrets. Actually, it's an advantage tough I can picture some calling it an unfair one. Edited January 25, 2023 by Crusader No Regret 4 Share this post Link to post
Andromeda Posted January 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, Crusader No Regret said: In an ideal world, there would have been mention of needing to load an additional fix .wad to be able to complete map 24 and reach the kill switch for the repopulating turrets in Boom ports. But I didn't notice any prominent download link for the fix on either the Doomwiki or the DSDA page so I dummo where to grab it. Here, it comes alongside the main wad: https://dsdarchive.com/files/wads/doom2/632/cchest2.zip 2 Share this post Link to post
Veeda Vidlak Posted January 24, 2023 Map 22: Thematic Elements (GZoom, complevel 9, UV pistol start) Our hero Lutrov returns once more to right the ship, partnering with Kimmo Kumpulainen to produce the gameplay centric slaughterfest CC2 desperately needed. Thematic Elements is an awesome “fetch quest” style map in which you are sent on three excursions to obtain the keys needed to leave. In these excursions, which are isolated from each other, you will encounter demanding combat scenarios, adding up to well over 500 monsters on UV. And don’t get the idea this is only a “drop them in a box and kill them” map either, the visuals and map design aren’t neglected by any means. You start in a little room with three teleporters, which will serve as your hub. You can enter all of them, but you need keys to go any further than the first room of the middle and right ones (left teleporter is the first excursion). While you can’t access the main section yet, I’d highly recommend immediately taking a short jaunt through the center teleporter first to grab the BFG (and the guarded powerups in the secrets from the same room). You’ll really want that and once you enter the left one, the only way back is completing the segment. Now BFG (hopefully) in hand, start your quest and be prepared for real combat. Unlike Elixir and Sodding Death, the fights have a more modern arena-like aspect to them, requiring quick reactions, space consideration, and threat prioritization to an extent this wad hasn’t really demanded yet. In just the first area, you have a movement restricted techbase brawl that punishes careless valiantry, a quite nasty teleporter ambush including an arch-vile (you have the BFG right?), another teleporter ambush in a hallway that pincers you with hell-knights, and finally a crate maze slaughter that isn’t particularly hard, but with monster density high enough to necessitate watching your escape routes to avoid getting pinned. These fights are heavier than Sodding Death and more lethal than City Heat, elevating Thematic Elements’ combat above both. After a bunch of maps that were either short or grindy, this is at least as welcome as The View was after Elixir. From here Thematic Elements kinda loses steam and kinda doesn’t. While I think the first section is the hardest, the other two still provide substantive, high-casualty gameplay that will kill a careless or inattentive player quickly. However, they seem less intense and more grindy than the blue key segment and start showing signs of the resource deprivation permeating the rest of the wad. It’s still fun, but I didn’t feel as pressured as before, with the major threat now being attrition. Like the first section, you are locked in for the next two (once past the key door) until they’re finished, and health is often in short supply, leading to one situation where I was at critically low health and had to carefully pick off chaingunners when all I wanted to do was head back and grab the medkits and soulsphere from the red key part. Very annoying. The later two sections are still pretty good, especially compared to the rest of the wad. I’d also like to shout out the arch-vile usage. Lutrov and Jimi do not shy away from unleashing them, often attacking the player with more than one at a time (including one very memorable secret). Visually, this map holds its own. The beginning hub area is excellent, providing a majestic vista of the surrounding landscape, not to mention the barred windows of the blue key trial. Each teleporter then leads to map sections with their own clear motif. The first area shows a techbase theme that looks a bit like a treatment plant. The second area is very plutonian, and I'm specifically getting an Aztec vibe from it. The third area looks… hellish? I’m feeling some Memento Mori here but I’m not confident about it. At the very least, its clearly different from the prior two. I am reminded of Alien Vendetta’s Killer Colours, not so much in direct visual association but in philosophy (having three highly distinct, isolated areas and the name Thematic Elements). Speaking of Alien Vendetta, the combat seems inspired by it as well. Fights are explosive and involve high numbers of enemies, with a penchant towards uniformity in monster groups. Thematic Elements makes some questionable decisions (that blind teleport into point blank mancubi, urg) but the overall product is one of the best levels in the megawad. It’s also the second time Lutrov has rekindled my enthusiasm to keep playing. Now I’ve played Doom for a good 20 years, but I’m a newcomer to the community itself, so I can’t join in with some of the other comments about authors’ penchants or how the project was developed … only discuss the maps themselves. That said, Lutrov is overperforming in my eyes, and for this level I have to shout out co-author Jimi as well. Map 23: Death Mountain (GZoom, complevel 9, UV pistol start) And another hit! Technically a gimmick level, Death Mountain nevertheless stands out to me as a positive example of the trope. It is one of the few levels I remember anything about from playing CC2 many years ago, which is a sign of successful map design. Immediately upon loading the map, the player is presented with striking visuals. A barren, rocky landscape suspended in an evening sky, dark, cloudy, and cloaked in deep sapphire blue. It’s a memorable backdrop and gives the map an air of hostility, a subtle, unsettling gloominess. On top of this you have an outer area slathered in little crags and outcroppings, no doubt meant to impersonate the Legend of Zelda series overworld. And with that we get to the map’s primary shtick, which is mimicking the caves in the Zelda games. You move throughout this map via tunnel openings that function as silent teleporters, instantly warping you (and enemies) from the outer section to the various inner areas of the level and vice-versa. Getting to the gameplay, it has its ups and downs. The very beginning is unlikely to endear itself to the player. Twice you have to go up ultrasteep steps (plays more like a ladder) with enemies waiting at the top, which will result in cheap hits. The second one is particularly bad. The “stairs” are ludicrously high and you’ll get gangbanged immediately at the summit by imps and hitscanners. Hell, if an imp is right in front you can’t even get up (he’ll scratch you up while you shoot uselessly at his toenails). Moving on, we have how the key feature of the map (the Legend of Zelda caves) plays out in practice. In short, they don’t translate to Doom combat very well. The instant you enter you’re immediately space-invaded by baddies and its too dark to see what the fuck is going on. The best way to deal with this is to enter, quickly shoot something, then leave after which one of two things will happen. 1. If you’re positioned with the cave entrance/silent teleporter between you and the monsters (wherever it is on the map) then the enemies will walk through it to get to you, allowing you to butcher them at your leisure. 2. If you’re positioned with the monsters between you and the cave entrance/silent teleporter, then they will congregate at the back of the cave. You can then reenter and kill a couple before retreating again… repeat until its clear enough to stay. This really puts the “gimmick” in gimmick level and while kind of funny, isn’t really compelling combat. However, there are enough good fights to make the overall gameplay pretty good. The outdoor shootouts are made uncomfortable by all the little scrubs and cylindrical rock formations, which I find spices things up a bit. The encounter inside the big red brick building is actually pretty hard, featuring a cramped lock-in fight against imps, pinkies, hell-knights, and an arch-vile that teleport in a rapid pace (well, unless you cheese it by not shooting the caged imps and just waiting for the door to uncover). Regardless, the big moment is in the large stone cavern against a cyberdemon, a pinky horde, and four stacks of sniping hell-knights. This one is really fun and the level could probably have ended there. However, after this there is one final cave teleporter tug of war with a bunch of assorted monsters. Its honestly entertaining, and a good power trip once you establish a foothold and demolish them with the rocket launcher. This is another level where the aesthetics win me over compared to the gameplay, except this time the gameplay stands on its own just fine. It’s just so unique, with a great premise, great execution, and a neat midi (albeit a little short). A highlight of CC2. 5 Share this post Link to post
Monsieur E Posted January 24, 2023 Map25- "Desecration" By Gene Bird, 196/260 kills, 3/3 secrets, 10:12 The only Gene Bird map made for cc2 proper, rather than pre-released maps incorporated for achieving a full 32 maps, it's decidedly an improvement. It's better looking, the combat is more organized, and generally is straightforward. I think this leads to it being much less interesting and "boring" compared to his other maps. I really don't have much else to say, it's fine but a part of me missed the zaniness of Map04, Map08 and Map16, still a solid redemption so to speak and it's a shame he stopped mapping after cc2 considering the improvement he showed in this map. --- As for my votes:+++The Number One Kill trilogy (should add upto 32) +++Fragport 2 Share this post Link to post
FrancisT218 Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) +++3 Heures d'Agonie +++Nostalgia +++Number One Kill Trilogy 1 Share this post Link to post
General Roasterock Posted January 25, 2023 Map 24: The Mucus Flow Digging deeper and deeper into the history of this map's development peels away the mystique and oblong beauty, and turns The Mucus Flow into a bitter, bitter compromise between map and mapper. While I want to do my best to not simply bootleg info straight out of MtPain, who is now pretty much synonymous with this map, it was his expression that caused me to scroll through B.P.R.D.'s post history. His attitude towards Doom as a medium is not enthusiastic to be generous. Many of his earliest posts talk about the inevitability of Doom 3 burying the first two games underfoot of processing power, modern graphics, and overall memorability, which, lmao. I don't know if I'm speaking with bias as someone who actually likes the game, but a lot of his comments come of as lackadaisical towards the game at best, and ignorant at worst. When you know exactly how he felt at the time of The Mucus Flow's inception, then you understand why so many elements are structured in the exact way they're found. I don't need to tell you how razor tight the combat in this map is. It's the defining feature of the map for people that don't find themselves absorbed in the theming, and not for a fantastic reason. I will admit to thinking that the combat was randomly generated years ago, but can now certainly see areas of purpose within the spacing. Pain Elementals are almost always used in ambush, stuck around corners or on far away cliffs to have a gigantic distance to travel, as well as spit souls in an endless supply in a map that is legendary for being one of the tightest on ammo in mainstream consciousness. It will probably never be determined if B.P.R.D. actually did the math for min rolls on ammo types against monster HP, or if he was just spitballing the entire construction of the economy, but my money is certainly on the latter due to how everything else is propped up. One thing is certain about the relationship: B.P.R.D. did not care about what happened with The Mucus Flow. In Boom ports, the complevel this project was meant for to my knowledge, The Mucus Flow is completely unfinishable. The scrolling wall in front of the switch to the final fight will block any attempts to open the door, as the use action will get eaten by the special scrolling line before it reaches the special switch line. From what I can tell, it is physically impossible to finish the map in its original state without cheating. B.P.R.D. never publicly fixed this issue. The patch that @Andromeda linked was made by The Green Herring, not B.P.R.D., and from his attitude to past work, it didn't seem like he had any intention to fix this. Personally I'm surprised that this made it at all past playtesting, and I have to ponder the consideration of the rest of the team towards The Mucus Flow, allowing their megawad to be virtually and perpetually softlocked on their designated compatibility. The unrefusable strength of the map is of course what it can make you feel. If I had only known B.P.R.D. as a composer, then I would be enamored with everything he had done. The MIDI demands a reaction, acting as a nursery rhyme to insurmountable weight. It's a perfect marriage between the undulation of frantic in both the map and the song. The entire land is drowning in nukage, flooding buildings, pouring over mountains, breaking down foundations. Watching a Pain Elemental emerge from a slimefall, if you can forget how aggravating they are to handle here, makes it feel like even the demons have been lost to this insurmountable force. Nature is coming to reclaim the infinitely many techbases that have been cast into this multiverse. Degradation returning for all that have existed, and eventually all that will exist. And then he put a big nose in it and turned all of that into "THIS MAP GOT THE SNOT LOLOLOLOL". Is it even a point of contention anymore? Are we still not sure that the nose exists to just fuck with people? The man had no issue producing comedy with the Nuts trilogy, hell I still think that was one of his strongest mapping suits, especially with the Nuts 2 edits. It's just such a blatant shredding of the wonderous ideas that he had towards the Doom community, the monotony of the continuous mapping ad infinitum, the lack of progression towards the new heights that other games were achieving, the mass of E1 remakes that he really didn't like for some reason. He wanted to have his mucus and flow it too, and now, just from knowing how he is and how that parallels the nose, I can't take this map seriously even if I tried. Up until this point, I've done my best to avoid the blatant objective failures in this map, such as the multiple secrets that can never be tagged due to the sectors being above the player in the Chaingunner killroom, to the bleeding skies that don't have a proper transfer tag. I would hope that people have figured out by now that they aren't "artistic intent" and are just fuck ups due to an imperfect use of an editor. I won't even pretend to say that I understand the difficulty of map editors pre-Doom Builder 2, and I thank developers for the blessings of programs like UDB and such, but there are hundreds of maps that existed before The Mucus Flow that had no issue in maintaining sanctity in its design. They clearly aren't horrid goals to achieve if the rest of the megawad came through relatively clean. Having a good mood is no longer a justifiable excuse, especially when other people have to step up to the plate to fix your work. If you couldn't tell, I don't share the starry-eyed wonder that a lot of people have for this map. I am very much grated by its gameplay, perplexed by its purpose, and set dumbfounded at its divine creator. Of course I am awestruck by its original composition, but I have heard it enough to wear out my attraction, and find myself more enthralled by those who have managed to perfect the formula. Disturbia comes to mind, riddling me with a much stricter ruleset and a backbreaking challenge. Those that truly find excellence in this map do so because it strikes a chord of emotion, which can not be argued away. It would be evil to try and convince people to hate this map, but it is also insincere to call it a stainless set of china, as when the emotional barrier breaks, the cracks are everywhere. Sorry that this is my only post for the month, I've just had this weighing on me for months now, and this is the only outlet I see where it can be brought. 14 Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted January 25, 2023 Yeah, time to vote: +++ Number One Kill & Number One Kill The Next Generation (Number One Kill Extra is not exactly eligible for the DWMC but might fit as a bonus map, so I'm voting for the trilogy as well) 1 Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Book Lord said: While The Mucus Flow is universally acclaimed as the map that defined Community Chest 2, my direct experience confirmed that it does not really belong to it. The show-stealer attitude, the conceptual gameplay, and the ambition to create a true epic adventure were palpable, assertive, and deliberate, and they clashed with all the rest. I want to respectfully disagree with this take. I think that The Mucus Flow fits quite well into map 24 slot of Community Chest 2 progression. The WAD prepares the ground for The Mucus Flow for quite a long time, I think. Map 24 feels pretty natural after maps 14, 15, 32, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23. All those maps offer some combinations of Aesthetics, Grand Scale, Exploration, Resourse Deprivation, Evil Ambushes and/or Unorthodox Level Layout. The Mucus Flow is an abitious map, yes. But it feels not like a "lighting in bottle" or "one-hit wonder of CC2", but like a proper payoff for a finely crafted build-up. Re: The Mucus Flaws 1) There are quite a lot maps, which can be described as "The Mucus Flow, but better". But there are also maps, which use some of same tricks as The Mucus Flow, but play much worse. Agruably Beyond The Sea (Hell Revealed map 28) is one such map. It is another cruel resource deprivation gauntlet. However, Beyond The Sea is cramped, has almost no aesthetics, and forces you to shoot fat midtiers without SSG! The resource deprivation gauntlet is a cool concept for a Doom map. In this design space, The Mucus Flow delivers quite a lot. 2) The Secret Mucus Source. Some people, including @MtPain27, say that the nose-shaped fountain may be responsible for all the green slime around the map. I always found this take to be weird. There are a lot of slimefals on this map, and many are quite far away from the fountain. And the tunnel leading towards the berserk secret is not flooded much, despite being situated right below the supposed sourse of the slime flow. My headcannon is that the slime springs occur quite naturally in that area. And the Mucus Nose sculpture is just a decoration carved around one such spring. Who carved it? Maybe it was some eccentic employee of the now derilict facility. Or maybe it was some demon. Hellspawns like to decorate everything with gargoyles and other stone sculpures, after all! Why not carve a giant nose in some obsure corner? It is a bit disgusting. And demons love their disgusting decorations! Vote for the next month: +++ Number One Kill Trilogy +++ Osiris & Auger:Zenith (about 29 maps in total) Edited January 25, 2023 by Azure_Horror 5 Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Azure_Horror said: I want to respectfully disagree with this take. I think that The Mucus Flow fits quite well into map 24 slot of Community Chest 2 progression. The WAD prepares the ground for The Mucus Flow for quite a long time, I think. Map 24 feels pretty natural after maps 14, 15, 32, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23. All those maps offer some combinations of Aesthetics, Grand Scale, Exploration, Resourse Deprivation, Evil Ambushes and/or Unorthodox Level Layout. The Mucus Flow is quite an abitious map, yes. But it feels not like a "lighting in bottle" or "one-hit wonder of CC2", but like a proper payoff for a finely crafted build-up. Thank you for the feedback and let me expand a little on it. The review was already overlong and stretching it further would have made it even harder to read. Obviously, if you take pistol start for granted, you can shove any map into any megaWAD, as it will play exactly the same as a standalone release. It is very hard for me to imagine how The Mucus Flow would play when going in blind, on continuous play, without any commentary/video/review to prepare yourself for the experience. I can only guess confusion, bewilderment, frustration, and hate as the first reactions to this map, especially when you find it after a streak of 25 maps where progression & difficulty have not been an issue (except on MAP05, I had no major problems with any of this WAD's offerings). Even on continuous play, I forced myself to use only the weapons provided by the map, but I can't force myself to ignore that resources are limited, Chaingunners will respawn, and backtracking is mandatory. I read Doomworld's Top 100 Memorable Maps commentary and the DoomWiki walkthrough, without giving a look to the layout. I did not know the position of each key, I knew of the nose secret but not its location; the same was for the Chaingunner killer switch. Only knowing that they were hidden somewhere made me find them quite naturally, especially the switch room where I stumbled by pure chance while trying to leave the outside area with the stimpacks. Community Chest 2 featured many ambitious levels where the authors wanted to show the best they were capable of; it was the intended target of the megaWAD to be representative of the Doomworld community of that time, and I think it succeeds in that regard. B.P.R.D. was a prominent mapper, even if he was often singing Doom's requiem as mentioned by @General Roasterock; he was also on the verge of leaving the Doom scene when he released this map, and his fickle attitude might be the reason behind the various flaws we experience 19 years later. He belongs to that era just as Erik Alm and every other mapper involved; I only think his map was conceived as a product to be enjoyed separately from the rest of the megaWAD. It stands out so much because it has nothing to do with the rest, it does not require the rest, and it actually performs better without the rest. I have not played as many PWADs as most of you guys and gals, but I can feel when a magnum opus is detached and when it mingles naturally with the surrounding megaWAD instead. You already mentioned a few special maps that wowed you on your first playthrough, without feeling spoiled by foreknowledge or requiring foreknowledge to be appreciated; this is not the case of The Mucus Flow, a map that is both saved and ruined by knowing how it works, and requires to be played on pistol start to get the full picture. I have played a map like this and it was Dr. Jones Abby's Malediction in Interception 2. These maps can exist even without the rest of their megaWAD, and they work better without the rest. I wish mappers understand that placing such levels in a megaWAD does not help them stand out, and the megaWAD does not get better as well. The Dean of Doom saying that "If The Mucus Flow wasn't in Community Chest 2 I would not have made this episode... it's the alpha and omega, etc" is painful to hear, but it is a valid opinion just as anyone's, and many people share it. To avoid such situations, mappers need to be aware that megaWADs should have an organic structure where everything fits nicely in the picture, including grab-bag community projects. The perfect balance between the main contributor and the guest mappers is one of the reasons behind the success of Ancient Aliens and, more recently, Ozonia. The community has made big steps forward since 2004, but sometimes projects still feature entries that do not support the rest, and do not want to be supported. Edited January 25, 2023 by Book Lord 5 Share this post Link to post
Roofi Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) +++ Fragport +++ Doom II : In spain only +++ Atonement 0 Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) MAP 25 – Desecration by Gene Bird @Searcher DSDA-Doom v0.24.3, UV, Continuous, blind run w/saves The last entry by Gene Bird, who deserves a big “thank you” for lending four of his Blind Alley levels to fill missing slots in Community Chest 2, was created specifically for this project and could be considered the apex of his mapping career. The detailing showed significant improvement over the previous production, and even combat felt more lively and less prone to cover exploitation. His previous entries in this megaWAD suffered the juxtaposition with hyper-detailed and more ambitious concepts that emphasised their primitive structure; quite the opposite, playing a down-to-earth level by the Grandpa of Doom after the marathon of MAP24 was refreshing, reinvigorating, and a welcome change of pace. Continuous play needs breather maps that are less demanding and allow to discharge tension, and Desecration came just in time to restore a broken Doomguy with a depleted ammo stock. Spoiler Searcher’s last contribution to the Doom community did not add much novelty to his qualified formula: there were many consecutive rooms and courtyards with monsters to kill, switches to press for progression, keys given just in front of the matching doors, secrets that did not truly belong to their category, plenty of ammo and healing so that only playing carelessly could put Doomguy’s life at risk. The enhancements consisted in more cosmetic constructions and better texture choices, as foreshadowed in Redemption; combat felt more meaningful though, with lots of small-scale attacks that kept the attention alive. Spoiler Closets and teleports were more common and better implemented than on MAP12, and there was also a purpose in the height variation displayed in a couple of locations; an example was the YSK wooden chamber, where Gene Bird arranged the only proper fight against an Arch-Vile of his Doom career (the one in MAP16 had a different purpose, as explained before). Not every encounter flew smoothly, especially in the first courtyards with small lifts and monsters lingering at the bottom or at the top; another small offender was the nukage pit with a Chaingunner and an Arachnotron. Searcher quoted himself in that room, reproducing exactly a situation seen in MAP04, included the position of the secret . Spoiler Desecration was nothing special and had fewer distinguishing layout features if compared to his older works; still, it can be described as the most polished creation from this author. The position in the middle of the third episode was a blessing and allowed me to chill out a bit between The Mucus Flow and the final streak of large maps. Thus end Gene Bird’s submissions to Doomworld, but 20 years later he is still among us and dares to entertain himself with “pastimes” like Sunder. Even though he did not revolutionise Doom editing by any means, he supported others doing so with playtesting, and liberally offered his material to projects struggling for completion. A staple of this community, he kept the flame burning in years when younger acolytes abandoned the temple, and he should receive more cheers than memes. Edited January 25, 2023 by Book Lord : fixed broken picture links 6 Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Book Lord said: Thank you for the feedback and let me expand a little on it. The review was already overlong and stretching it further would have made it even harder to read. Obviously, if you take pistol start for granted, you can shove any map into any megaWAD, as it will play exactly the same as a standalone release. It is very hard for me to imagine how The Mucus Flow would play when going in blind, on continuous play, without any commentary/video/review to prepare yourself for the experience. Even on pistol satarts, the maps can be dissonant. I experienced such dissonance quite a lot of times. As for The Mucus Flow, I also didn't remember much during my first playthrough of the map. I knew about infinite chaingunners, about some visaul setpieces and about the general mood of the map, that's pretty much all I remembered. On my first try I missed the SSG at the start of the map! That said, it seems I was extremely lucky during my previous run of the map. I tried to replay it - and had a very bad time! (similar thing happened with 3Hd'A 2 map 11, BTW). Thank you for that! I decided to rewrite the review of The Mucus Flow: Map 24 The Mucus Flow by B.P.R.D (review try 2) Sometimes, replaying maps offer new insights. Glad I decided to replay this map a second time. Why? Because, frankly, this map is outright hostile to fun, unless you are in very right frame of mind or get extremely lucky with the map start. On my first playthrough, pinkies and PEs were extremely accommodating. On a second playthrough - no such luck! Only two solutions exist for this problem 1) wait-and-wait-and-wait until the majority of the monsters reach a convenient chokepoint, were you saw/punch them all. (Concept of boredom was seemingly disregarded, when B.P.R.D. was placing monsters inside the techbase) 2) Retry, until you get lucky enough to start the map in somewhat fun way without wasting too much time. Frankly, far-away Pain eles + no chaingun at the start and no health near the battlefield is outright terrible design. Either wait, or lose. Such fun and interactive approach! Some traits of The Mucus Flow are brilliant, do not get me wrong: The map is really good in aesthetics department! It also provides some intersting challenges for speedrunners and other competitve players. Resourse deprevation gauntlets are a genre of its own, and The Mucus Flow fits this genre quite nicely. However, this all can easily get overshadowed by miserable "normal" gameplay loop. Conclusion: The Mucus Flow is like Icarus, who flew too close to the Sun, burned his wings and plummeted to his death. It could have been a great map. But it looks like a broken mess in its current state. It is possible to look past the broken, twisted shell and recongnise the brilliance still hiden there. The fans of the map recognise that brilliance. However, broken shell is still there, and you will always stumble upon it when you try to play the map. The flaws of the map are serious. They can really ruin your experience. Personally, I prefer Scythe map 30 Fire and Ice any day of the week. However, The Mucus Flow inspired many brilliant maps. And for that I am very thankful to B.P.R.D.! Edited January 25, 2023 by Azure_Horror 4 Share this post Link to post
LSC Lasico Posted January 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Azure_Horror said: I want to respectfully disagree with this take. I think that The Mucus Flow fits quite well into map 24 slot of Community Chest 2 progression. The WAD prepares the ground for The Mucus Flow for quite a long time, I think. Map 24 feels pretty natural after maps 14, 15, 32, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23. All those maps offer some combinations of Aesthetics, Grand Scale, Exploration, Resourse Deprivation, Evil Ambushes and/or Unorthodox Level Layout. The Mucus Flow is an abitious map, yes. But it feels not like a "lighting in bottle" or "one-hit wonder of CC2", but like a proper payoff for a finely crafted build-up. Might i also add that map05 “Elixir” is pure foreshadowing with it’s brand of gameplay. 1 Share this post Link to post
E.M. Posted January 25, 2023 MAP25 - “Desecration” by Gene Bird DSDA-Doom, UV, Pistol Start In stark contrast to the map that came before it, "Desecration" by Gene Bird is fun to play. It also happens to be the best map Gene Bird has ever made. The detailing is drastically improved and the combat is actually challenging now. You can no longer just camp every fight. You're encouraged to run in and confront the demons head on. My favorite fight was the one in the giant wooden room as it forces you to move around a lot. I was also amused by that one room that was a throwback to "Deja Vu". Not much else to say other than I really enjoyed this one. ---------- And since everyone is voting now, I want to talk about some older megawads, which is why my votes go to: +++ Hell to Pay +++ Perdition's Gate 5 Share this post Link to post
Doomy__Doom Posted January 25, 2023 MAP23 - Death Mountain The beginning is just miserable for pistol starters. Shotgunning/sawing some 150-ish E1 enemies in linear/corridor progression is not the kind of action the upbeat soundtrack calls for. When I close my eyes, I envision chaotic nonsense of Ray Mohawk or somesuch. SSG encounter is good fun, highlighting that it's not the tier of monsters - it's how you use'em is what makes directed combat designs fun. You kinda do need to find the supercharge though - even 200/100 can disappear very quickly if HKs decide to port in and corner the player together. The rest is alright, as you quickly obtain destructive arsenal. MAP24 - The Mucus Flow I'm not going to bend spears over nasal matter origin theories or the many-times-discussed (de)merits and finer points of the everything starvation genre. Instead, I bear practical advice on how to attempt to enjoy this map if you don't feel like bean-counting everything that has a number - play with coop things turned on. It WILL ruin the original gimmick of getting guns after keys - you will get a plasma with 200 cells as you cruise by chaingunner towers, there is an SSG+2 shell boxes by BK, 5 more shell boxes and a shotgun in the backpack room, RL+2 boxes in the mancuborridor, BFG near RK and a chaingun+4 ammo boxes as you approach the final stretch. What WILL NOT be touched is the health situation - you get nothing extra in that department - nor the monster allocation. You still have to backtrack all the way home for medkits. You can still die (or, well, effectively die) to a high roll and thus you'll persist to painstakingly dodging every fireball, groaning when an imp sneaks up on you. PEs are still a potential disaster in the making. But, at the very least, you can just choose to SSG things dead as you come across them, and the initial round of exploration is greatly expedited by the plasma. MAP25 - Desecration Some more straightforward corridor shooting, likely a necessary unwind from TMF for many. This time, featuring some (rather toothless) teleport ambushes, a proper arch-vile encounter and fondness for skull pile decoration. There's subtle improvement here - for the first time among Bird's maps, I didn't feel like the level dragged on far longer than it should have. If I had to guess, it's probably the effect of reduced meatwall degree. The most memorable feature is probably the arachnotron toxic pit - chiefly because it's soooo similar to that in map 4: - north-facing U-shaped dropoff with a border - a small still toxic room behind it, and then turn right onto safety - a secret misaligned WOODMET1 on the eastern wall of the dropoff room ... that's no an accident, or is it? 3 Share this post Link to post
LadyMistDragon Posted January 25, 2023 We're supposed to be playing Desecration today, however, I think it'd be a better use of time to respond to a certain post about the other map I knew I'd probably be spending zero time with this month 15 hours ago, General Roasterock said: Map 24: The Mucus Flow Digging deeper and deeper into the history of this map's development peels away the mystique and oblong beauty, and turns The Mucus Flow into a bitter, bitter compromise between map and mapper. While I want to do my best to not simply bootleg info straight out of MtPain, who is now pretty much synonymous with this map, it was his expression that caused me to scroll through B.P.R.D.'s post history. His attitude towards Doom as a medium is not enthusiastic to be generous. Many of his earliest posts talk about the inevitability of Doom 3 burying the first two games underfoot of processing power, modern graphics, and overall memorability, which, lmao. I don't know if I'm speaking with bias as someone who actually likes the game, but a lot of his comments come of as lackadaisical towards the game at best, and ignorant at worst. When you know exactly how he felt at the time of The Mucus Flow's inception, then you understand why so many elements are structured in the exact way they're found. And then he put a big nose in it and turned all of that into "THIS MAP GOT THE SNOT LOLOLOLOL". Is it even a point of contention anymore? Are we still not sure that the nose exists to just fuck with people? The man had no issue producing comedy with the Nuts trilogy, hell I still think that was one of his strongest mapping suits, especially with the Nuts 2 edits. It's just such a blatant shredding of the wonderous ideas that he had towards the Doom community, the monotony of the continuous mapping ad infinitum, the lack of progression towards the new heights that other games were achieving, the mass of E1 remakes that he really didn't like for some reason. He wanted to have his mucus and flow it too, and now, just from knowing how he is and how that parallels the nose, I can't take this map seriously even if I tried. If you couldn't tell, I don't share the starry-eyed wonder that a lot of people have for this map. I am very much grated by its gameplay, perplexed by its purpose, and set dumbfounded at its divine creator. Of course I am awestruck by its original composition, but I have heard it enough to wear out my attraction, and find myself more enthralled by those who have managed to perfect the formula. Disturbia comes to mind, riddling me with a much stricter ruleset and a backbreaking challenge. Those that truly find excellence in this map do so because it strikes a chord of emotion, which can not be argued away. It would be evil to try and convince people to hate this map, but it is also insincere to call it a stainless set of china, as when the emotional barrier breaks, the cracks are everywhere. Sorry that this is my only post for the month, I've just had this weighing on me for months now, and this is the only outlet I see where it can be brought. Speaking as someone who rolled her eyes at MtPain's rather pretentious (I thought him saying that in BTSX2 was at best, rather hypocritical) ending description in the Valedictorian Playthrough that was uploaded some weeks back, it's actually quite refreshing to see someone who seems to recognize that BPRD's sophomoric and scatalogical sense of humor was as evident through most of his wads as much as stars. Does anyone seriously think Snaga from Grove was meant to be anything but a stupid joke? And that was a map that I had stronger emotional connection to if anything. The lackadaisical attitude of BPRD toward gameplay or fixing his wads in general can't exactly be disputed. It's getting into artistic inspiration v. time investment I suspect, but he seems to be someone who had ideas, tried his best to realize them and didn't seem to keep 'sanctity in its design' as you say at the forefront. If one is to judge on 'cracks' and 'sanctity' alone, then yes, this map falls apart and BPRD should've just packed his bags and went home around the time of Nuts because packing in as many monsters as possible will be his only achievement at any note. Quote Up until this point, I've done my best to avoid the blatant objective failures in this map, such as the multiple secrets that can never be tagged due to the sectors being above the player in the Chaingunner killroom, to the bleeding skies that don't have a proper transfer tag. I would hope that people have figured out by now that they aren't "artistic intent" and are just fuck ups due to an imperfect use of an editor. I won't even pretend to say that I understand the difficulty of map editors pre-Doom Builder 2, and I thank developers for the blessings of programs like UDB and such, but there are hundreds of maps that existed before The Mucus Flow that had no issue in maintaining sanctity in its design. They clearly aren't horrid goals to achieve if the rest of the megawad came through relatively clean. Having a good mood is no longer a justifiable excuse, especially when other people have to step up to the plate to fix your work. The problem is this sort of perspective make me too worried that 'gameplay' should be what anyone looks for while playing BPRD maps. This isn't to say I'll never excuse his numerous and irritating choices. For instance, placing a critical switch that opens up the graveyard on some stairs in an incredibly darkened cave. However, the idea stated in a previous quote that Quote And then he put a big nose in it and turned all of that into "THIS MAP GOT THE SNOT LOLOLOLOL". is a good example of highlighting how prevalent BPRD's comedy is, I refuse to believe that someone who made Grove and even, dare I say, the Mucus Flow to a large extent had zero serious intent behind these maps. Although your post has made me think the Mucus Flow was certainly a 'fuck it' map to a large degree, the midi if nothing else is the mind of someone who was seriously discontented . Like I really don't think he was the only one at the time who took a look at Doom 3 and intially thought "yup, classic Doom just can not compete." Of course, Doom 3 turned out to have an entirely different gameplay emphasis that's nothing like what modern classic Doom eventually , but as you say, he probably didn't exactly look into the game very thoroughly. I have no coherent conclusion because truth be told, I had a seriously coherent argument in mind while I was at work, and now, all my thoughts seemed to have become a jumble of noodles and slime. Ok, I can't help some self-amusement sometimes but the point is that again, this comes back to how much one thinks the comedy affects any 'artistic inspiration' v 'gameplay,' which the Mucus Flow admittedly largely fails in the latter (other than the near-perfect ammo balance, but again, that was probably an accident). BPRD obviously did not have the temperament to be a Doom architect, especially at a time when he was starting to lose faith in Doom as a medium. I don't know if Equinox comes across as a more solid product necessarily, but I'm fully aware that there are also many serious problems with that set as well, so idk if that could be called significantly better. If you're interested in continuing the discussion further, DMs are open, but that's about all I can say right now. Also, let us vote +++Solar Struggle +++ Fragport May vote for 3rd option, idk 7 Share this post Link to post
Veeda Vidlak Posted January 25, 2023 I'll try to catch up with my Mucus Flow review when I can. For now, votes. +++ PUSS IX: Mapping at Warpspeed +++ Doom 2: In Spain Only +++ Literalism (Do I need something with Literalism to reach 32, or at least 30? I can find something and edit it in if need be) 0 Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) On 1/25/2023 at 8:09 PM, LadyMistDragon said: I have no coherent conclusion because truth be told, I had a seriously coherent argument in mind while I was at work, and now, all my thoughts seemed to have become a jumble of noodles and slime. Ok, I can't help some self-amusement sometimes but the point is that again, this comes back to how much one thinks the comedy affects any 'artistic inspiration' v 'gameplay,' which the Mucus Flow admittedly largely fails in the latter (other than the near-perfect ammo balance, but again, that was probably an accident). BPRD obviously did not have the temperament to be a Doom architect, especially at a time when he was starting to lose faith in Doom as a medium. When discussing 'gameplay' v 'artistic inspiration', we must remember that those two things can affect each other. In The Mucus Flow case, the obtuse gameplay distracts from the 'artistic' part of the level. Instead of appreciating the great visuals, I keep guessing where the next pain elemental can be hiding. Instead of listening to interesting MIDI, I keep focusing on sound cues for annoying opponents. And 'this gameplay just plainly sucks' feeling largely displaces whatever mood/feel the map tries to evoke. I kinda see The Mucus Flow as an polar opposite of Gene Bird's The Pit (map 08). The Pit would be utterly forgettable, if not for the outright great combat setups (they are very simplistic, sure - but they are fun and engaging!). And The Mucus Flow could have been a thing of absolute brilliance - but the terrible combat loop alone torpedoes the whole thing! There are maps where gameplay is annoying, yet it enhances the "artistic' part of the equation. On Off the top of my head, I can remember @StormCatcher.77's Dehydration from Eviternity, or @Roofi's Rêve Brisé from 180 Minutes Pour Vivre. Edited January 26, 2023 by Azure_Horror 5 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTS108 Posted January 25, 2023 So because I'm kind of on a mini hiatus from recording right now and I wouldn't miss The Mucus Flow for the world, I'll just talk about it now, retreat to my hole in the ground then just reappear on the 1st with a fresh start and new bad opinions (And just sheepishly finish off CC2 on the side. I already covered two hilariously bad Gene Bird maps anyway so I don't think any of you are dying for my takes on the rest of this wad.) I'll admit this review is based on the last time I played this map, some time in mid 2021, but naturally I've had a long time to think about it, so hopefully this review doesn't totally suck ass or anything. I just had to get my thoughts out on it. MAP24: The Mucus Flow By B.P.R.D. Lets start off this review by saying I don't want to try to convince anyone any which way on this map. If you're not into this map, I don't think much can really change your mind at this point. I could do some long boring sappy review on this map but quite frankly I get the feeling someone has already done that before, and done it way better than I ever could, not only because they're a better writer from me but I feel they have the perspective to do the map more justice than I can. I'm keeping this review on the relatively short side (EDIT: LOL NVM) because, and I'll just say it, just go watch MtPain talk about it instead. Anyway, onto B.P.R.D's masterpiece. To put it lightly it's difficult to know exactly where to start with this one for obvious reasons. I guess the direction I want to go with this review is how incredibly modern this map is. Not necessarily in the mechanics of the map itself, naturally The Mucus Flow is one of the only maps that plays like this, partly because of the meticulous amount of balancing this requires, but there's something about the commanding aura of this map that just seems immortal to me. It's one of the most alive Doom levels ever made, it's hard to exactly describe the atmosphere here, but it feels like the *opposite* of Ribbiks voidscape type deals. Where those maps are brutal in their loneliness and feeling of intrusion, this map is brutal in kind of a similar way to Down The Drain. Like I refrain from saying this map has "personality" but that feels like the best way to put it. Forgive me for the paraphrasing here but MtPain puts this extremely well, it's "disarmingly human". This map's mix of occasional light humour with the cold unforgiving terror of the gameplay is really polarising and really REALLY well done. Naturally this is boosted an INSANE amount by the music, which is also possibly my favourite MIDI ever used in a Doom map, let alone one made for a Doom map. It's just absolutely crushing mixed with delightful and mysterious equal measure with this map. It's similar to something like Alfonzo's Gutter Penny. (Which is probably the only music track I can begin to compare this one to.) No matter where I am in this map this MIDI feels always fitting. Hacking away at Pain Elementals or staring at a big nose stuck in a rock, this intense yet beautiful track always rises to the occasion. Here's probably the part where I should complain about the gameplay, and, yeah obviously I'm not dying to play Mucus Flow all the time or anything. The thing is though, I find the gameplay absolutely perfect. This map doesn't need huge dramatically staged fights to make the player feel weak, The Mucus Flow simply would not be The Mucus Flow if it was more similar to something like Swim With The Whales or No Chance, or whatever. This map sacrifices gameplay in the name of fear, dread and tension, and if you ask me, it's all done perfectly. In general every single aspect of this map plays into each other, and although I'd understand not being into this map because of obscure secrets, incredibly limited ammo, etc, the gameplay is very much a part of what makes this map as compelling as it is to me. To wrap things up, I think now more than ever, The Mucus Flow is a map that seems like it came from the future. Whether that's because it was just so ahead of its time or because of how much stuff has been influenced by it over the years is up to debate, but bar none as a whole this is easily the most fully realised Doom map, and one of the most fully realised pieces of art I've ever seen. B.P.R.D had one last vision for Doom and he put his all into it. It's far, FAR from "everything I like about Doom", but in some ways, I think it manages to exceed that in its own bleak, hopeless and desperately alive way. It hasn't aged a day since '04. Grade: A+ Difficulty: X 7 Share this post Link to post
Veeda Vidlak Posted January 25, 2023 Map 24: The Mucus Flow (GZoom, complevel 9, UV pistol start) And here we have it. Community Chest 2’s showstopper. Top 5 in Doomworld’s 100 most memorable maps, an inspiration for many future works, and MtPain’s waifu. The reception to BPRD’s magnum opus seems to be less than stellar, but not with me. I am very much among the group enamored by The Mucus Flow and the emotional stranglehold it has on us. The atmosphere I would describe as Final Destination in Doom. That you are destined to die here, and any temporary success merely delays the inevitable. It’s gameplay, by accident or otherwise, enforces this perception. You start out in a little outpost, with a massive trove of ammunition, and the non SSG weapons locked behind bars, requiring keys to obtain. These keys are not required to finish the level, but at least a couple of them might as well be, given how crucial the weapons are to making it to the end. Upon leaving the player is presented with a masterpiece of immersion, an old base being devoured by whatever the “mucus” is. It is everywhere, seeping through cracks, pouring from the ceiling, flooding the initial darkened rooms and creeping into every nook and cranny. The detail is outstanding, perfectly evoking an outpost being swallowed by the slime. Passing through the respawning chaingunner valley and into the primary base itself, I find the architecture very unsettling. Diamond shaped readouts line the walls, some showing nondescript text, some displaying legible statuses, and most showing nothing at all. While mostly in a horizontal pattern, there are some misshapen clusters of them, which I find disturbing, like looking at clocks while dreaming. From here, you can go any direction you wish but understand nearly every bit of health and ammo in this level is located back at the starting area. There are scattered shells and stimpacks, most of which require one of the keys, but otherwise nothing. This is the point I would argue the level divides opinions as much as any I can think of. With its sadistic, deprivation gameplay. Pain elementals everywhere, hordes of imps and pinkies, machines sniping from darkened, fortified pillboxes, monsters raining hellfire from towers and cliffs. And as your health and arsenal dwindles, the only means of replenishment requires darting back through the chaingunner towers, of which you only have two partial invisibilities to help you. There is a secret that shuts off the respawning, but you need a strong foothold to get that far, and you still need to take out the guards remaining in the towers. Actually beating this level saveless is not for the faint of heart, requiring a solid hour of playing very well. Even only a few occasional mistakes can add up enough to drain the health reserves at the start, leaving the player all but doomed. I won’t bother defending this fun-homicide gameplay from its detractors. It's not a type of challenge I imagine endears itself to many, and it’s certainly not good by traditional standards. Something about it really motivates me though, far more than other levels I wouldn’t bother with. I really… really want to win, to escape alive, to wake up from this nightmare. It didn’t happen this time… my best attempt ended at the final outdoor area to a mancubus fireball, almost 50 minutes in. I couldn’t continue after that, but I doubt this is the last time I’ll play The Mucus Flow. I’m going to speculate that BPRD did this on purpose, perhaps trying to showcase issues he was having in a vicarious sort of way. It’s meant to be cruel, to seem hopeless, to break the player’s spirit. Nothing makes me believe this more than The Mucus Flow’s unbelievable midi (that he made for this level), which legitimately haunts me outside of the game. It possesses an otherworldly intensity that’s hard to describe, sweet, serene, but with an undercurrent of sheer dread. It’s the music of finality, of perishing in your futile battle to overcome the oncoming hardship that threatens to swallow you whole. I have to wonder if there was a metaphor intended here. Burnout perhaps? With the massive trove at the start slowly dwindling away and the “depleted starlight power source” serving as the ending? I’m not going to speculate further, some of the comments suggest BPRD was losing confidence in classic Doom, motivation, or something else that was stifling his interest in continuing with the community. I have no idea, but I highly doubt we’d have The Mucus Flow if he felt otherwise. Everything about it strikes me as a reflection of how he was at the time, flaws and all. BPRD’s failure to make this level winnable with a technical oversight is inexcusable, as is the random secrets tagged on random crates. I’m also totally on board with those saying the statue of the nose is a terrible inclusion. Nevertheless, these decisions (or lack thereof) come part and parcel with all those that resulted in The Mucus Flow in its entirety. The community needs people like BPRD to push the boundaries of imagination, and I’m willing to accept some stupidity to make it so. The truth is, for me at least, there is no level that feels like the Mucus Flow. Nothing else has managed to roil up the whirlwind of emotions that last long after I’ve finished playing. For anyone claiming something is the mucus flow but better, I have to ask, better at what? Resource deprivation gameplay? A sense of despair? Making the player believe they can’t win? Of course there are levels that improve on those traits, and many others, but I have yet to play anything that does The Mucus Flow better than The Mucus Flow. It is, and will always remain, a testament to Doom’s power. 6 Share this post Link to post
cannonball Posted January 25, 2023 From a technical point of view, the Mucous flow is a very harrowing ordeal and one I would struggle to even give an average mark to. However there are few mappers out their where you get the feeling of looking directly into their mind/soul whenever you play one of their maps. I arrived on Doomworld long after BPRD had left the scene and as such I don't know the author at all. However there is something about every map BPRD made that draws you in, maybe it is the human condition to be drawn into characters who are a combination of being both flawed and a genius (There are too many in books/film/tv to list). Most people who make maps for Doom would spend a lot of time refining and polishing their work, however BPRD's maps always gave the impression of being a stream of raw and pure emotions that were never allowed to be tainted, as in no editing, little to no bugfixing, was is done is done. Maybe that isn't what really happened here, but it is the feeling I personally get and for me it is this what makes the Mucous flow special. The irony is that the quality control of the later iterations of the Community Chest series would have taken a lot of the magic away, even if the result was a much more playable map. Just my couple of pennies worth on the subject. 8 Share this post Link to post
E.M. Posted January 26, 2023 I'm tapping out of this WAD. Going through the confusing corridors of MAP26 killed what little enthusiasm I had left. I knew the next three maps would get even bigger and more confusing (I played them back in 2019 and did not like them at all). I couldn't be bothered to go any further, so I'll go ahead and give my final thoughts. Community Chest 2 is one of the most inconsistent megawads ever made. Some levels have extravagant detailing while others are very plain. Some are really fun to play while others are like pulling teeth. Some are really short while others are gigantic slogs that go on and on and on. I guess you could play it for the historical value, but it's not something I would play every day, or every month for that matter. Then again, if this didn't exist, then we wouldn't have the high quality community projects we have today. 4 Share this post Link to post
brick Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) Reading everyone else's impressions about The Mucus Flow has been very interesting, it's clearly a polarizing map, but I often found myself agreeing with both praise and criticism even when they were things I hadn't formulated in my own post. I also feel completely stupid, I could've sworn I looked and couldn't find the fix, and of course now I can see the very obvious link on the wiki... I also want to thank Book Lord for those last couple of paragraphs on magnum opus syndrome, which perfectly explain why I balk at these maps in megawads, something I've noticed in my attitude towards them without ever being able to put into words. GZDoom, Boom compatibility, HNTR, blind, continuous with saves. MAP25 - “Desecration” by Gene Bird Thank you Gene, I needed a more conventional map after that last trio. I thought this one looked good, with the same kind of "vanilla detailing" that I saw in MAP12, and some similarly pretty ceilings. There was also a very nice use of scrolling walls to simulate rotating machinery, which I thought was typical Gene-cute. He's learned a thing or two about ambushes since CC1's maps though, this one kept bringing in an imp or a shotgunner every time I thought I was finally safe. In fact, on HNTR the only real threat is from hitscans, there are quite a few of them, and they're positioned to maximize chipping away at your health. Ammo is abundant though, and there are two Supercharges (neither secret), so I didn't find myself as low on health as on MAP22. I think Gene's maps in CC1 and CC2 are the equivalent of comfort food: not the tastiest, not the most original, but you know exactly what to expect, and some days when I don't feel like going out of my comfort zone, or I'm not in the mood for a massive feast, or I just need a break, they're exactly the kind of maps I want. I also think they're the perfect maps to break up more complex and taxing ones; there are only so many majestic hour-long 700-enemy epics that I can take in a row before indigestion sets in, no matter how good they are. (Perhaps not coincidentally, I wrote this on a very cold snowstorm evening right after having a very comforting mac and cheese, whose simplicity I wouldn't trade for anything) MAP26 - “Geist Halls” by Dr. Zin I kept thinking while playing this that it must be someone's first map, and after finishing and checking I was glad I wasn't far off (it's either first or second, and the other one is deathmatch). It's difficult to describe, it just doesn't look or play like a typical map, as if it's designed by someone who has no idea what the conventions are supposed to be and ends up making something completely different and unique. It's not very large, enemy count is pretty low (barely 80) on HNTR, but it still took me some time to complete it, trying to figure out where to go and what to do. Progression is not always obvious but there's nothing unfair, as long as you're careful and pay attention. The level is a very good looking factory or mining facility inside an asteroid (or that's how I perceive it) with lots of moving machinery and some really cool bits, especially in the main machine room. The best part is the secret hunting, there are quite a few, they are well designed, and some are ingenious. One leads into a very doomcute armoury with ammo, weapons, stimpacks all positioned very logically. My favourite was one that sends you down a lift into sewers of sorts, then a control room overlooking the center of the asteroid. From here a series of switches can drain the sewer and let you access another secret door that leads into a hidden library (!) and an observation room overlooking space. It all looks so strange but tells or at least evokes a story and creates a fascinating setting. The MIDI is an arrangement of Pink Floyd's One Of These Days. I love the song, and it sort of fits, but I'm not sure it works very well as MIDI (come to think of it I should've probably just played the original on repeat). Very interesting and memorable map. 7 Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted January 26, 2023 MAP 26 – Geist Halls by @Dr. Zin DSDA-Doom v0.24.3, UV, Continuous, blind run w/saves Introduced and strongly supported by the progressive tones of the Pink Floyd midi, Geist Halls was the first of many submissions by Dr. Zin to community projects. It began in a spooky crate warehouse, where Doomguy was instantly assailed by Pinkies and zombies emerging from the upper control rooms. The very first progression steps denounced the especially cramped nature of the tech-base, consisting largely of 64-wide corridors and small rooms separated by many doors. Except on a few larger areas, combat was always at point-blank range against zombies, Imps, and Pinkies, their invisible variant giving the map its name. Spoiler With combat taking the back seat, I enjoyed the exploratory elements and little Boom effects that the author put on display. Alongside a linear progression that also provided the minimum weaponry, there were inaccessible areas holding authentic stashes of goodies. Uncovering the secrets was almost a game on its own, with quite a bit of surprises awaiting in the hidden locations: the infirmary, the security guard arsenal, and the secret library overlooking the infinite space, accessed through an optional and elaborate switch sequence relying on Tag 666 and hidden Commander Keens. Spoiler The BK was recovered in the machinery room at the centre of the map, where lots of crushers and timed lifts had been activated. Climbing up to the key required some keen eyes and a little patience, just as the meticulous opening of all doors to find the blue switch that unlocked the western wing of the complex. After crossing a second storage room with Spectres, I arrived on a spaceship landing point that soon became an ambush site for Cacodemons. The YK was stored inside the nearby control tower. Spoiler The only moment where the narrow layout got on my nerves was the Hell Noble ambush on the way to the yellow door. I was forced to descend on a lift in an area congested by Hell Knights and a Baron of Hell, which were unusually nimble and gathered below the lift before I could even see them. They ganged up on me on the elevator, leading to an obvious death. The rest of Geist Halls did not contain anything remotely dangerous, just small rooms with enemies, lots of elevators, and the final Cyberdemon that could just be ignored if all you want is to leave the map. Even though I prefer less claustrophobic installations to search for keys and switches, I rather enjoyed the pseudo-realism in Dr.Zin’s tech-base design and his penchant for secrets. He has just returned to Doomworld to release Nuclear Bunker, an unpublished 2007 level, and he is currently mapping for the Community Trunk project; it is great to see people come back after a long absence with renewed interest in Doom. 5 Share this post Link to post
Celestin Posted January 26, 2023 +++ Number One Kill & Number One Kill The Next Generation +++ Fragport 1 Share this post Link to post
Horus Posted January 26, 2023 15 hours ago, Veeda Vidlak said: (Do I need something with Literalism to reach 32, or at least 30? I can find something and edit it in if need be) Well, February has 28 days in it, so Literalism's 26 maps is probably enough. 1 Share this post Link to post
Biodegradable Posted January 26, 2023 +++Machete +++Doom In Spain Only 1 Share this post Link to post
